Is there an AEBBA Rule to cover it ?

[enzo]

Dec 28, 2011 9:38:57 GMT BB Warrior said:

Enzo we look forward to seeing you next year at these armed with lots of proposals. ;D

Perhaps.. this is my underlying point as previously stated, I was enquiring whether any of the said rules (or any others for that matter) have been changed by the committee(s) or it is just a case of reluctance not keep up to date with the AEBBA rules?

Mine or others opinions of standardization is irrelevant due to rule 17 of the AEBBA rules. My only proposal at the Sussex AGM would be to update the rules to fall in line with the AEBBA.

However, I feel this would be contested with the valid point that the Sussex AGM is the place to adjust the AEBBA rules to suit our gameplay, but do we have the authority to do so as would we not be breaking rule 17 of the AEBBA by not adhering to the rules?

Nothing in the AEBBA rules states anything to the contrary. County or individual league variables can still be voted on at their respective AGMs such as the format of the league/competitions, points and ranking systems, electing/drawing players or anything else appertaining to the organisation of the league, rules that differ from the AEBBA ones must be voted upon at the AEBBA AGM?

I just need clarification and/or objections to this as I would like some ammo before I start trying to command AGMs ;D

EDIT: I've found 28 rule instances where the SCBBA rules do not conform to the AEBBA rules (granted some are minor changes). I noticed 7 quite quickly in the Brighton Bar Billiards league rules but some are very good changes but one assumes these need to go through the AE AGM?

Examples -

SCBBA rule 8  "All tables shall be adequately illuminated by a lamp of not less than 100 watts and be adequately shaded"  Nothing specifies wattage or shade in the AEBBA rules, so should the rule stand or not?

BBBL rule F27, referring to the bar dropping before the minimum 16 minutes, then another coin must be inserted to play out the maximum 20 minutes. Nothing in the AEBBA about this issue, but again does the BBBL have the authority to change this in their own league?

BBBL rule C14, in reference to the scoreboard being placed in a position whereas it isn't obscured from the view of players and the home team placed on the top score and the away team on the bottom. Neither are in the AEBBA rules but should the AEBBA dictate how we score etc?

Jan 20, 2012 10:07:29 GMT enzo said:

but should the AEBBA dictate how we score etc?

I don't see why not, Enzo, the AEBBA stipulates how a coin should be tossed: ;)

30) Where choice of first break is decided by the toss of a coin, the coin must be tossed in the air and either caught or allowed to fall to the floor.

Quite often I invoke this one myself, disliking as I do the prevalent practice of whipping a coin out of the pocket, slapping it on the forearm and saying "what's that ?" ;D

The whole point is that we are all supposed to abide by the AEBBA Rules. In a case where a county or League has trouble with a certain scenario (Brighton have obviously had trouble in the past with scoreboards not being made visible) then they are entitled to include something in their own 'domestic' set of rules - so long as it is not in conflict with an AEBBA rule.

Much has been done over the years to reach the stage we are at now, with less than 1 per cent conflict between AEBBA, SCBBA, and its affiliated leagues. Gone are the convoluted discussions which would make AGMs run on and on till nearly midnight, and disputes are now few and far between.

You have actually found quite a good one in the specification of bulb wattage and lampshade to offer up to the All-England, where the AEBBA say (rather vaguely) "should be adequately illuminated". The AEBBA has gone into great detail in specifications elsewhere, in terms of distance of spots, size of D, etc!

But apart from that, the words "Lily" and "Gilding the" come to mind. :-/

   

[enzo]

I do agree each league should be personalised, as you say different leagues clearly have their own trouble with certain aspects of the game that haven't got rules i.e. the scoreboard and the light shade. The wattage of the light has its purpose but what if I use a 10 or 30W energy saving bulb? :)

The more serious rule is the bar dropping short, this isn't as simple as a light shade or scoreboard which could be a league's rule, this has an impact on the game itself which is quite a big issue issue that, in my opinion, needs to be brought to the AEBBA AGM as most leagues employ this rule but that is a big part of the game to change.

You are right in the last comment though ;D

Leagues should only be 'personalised' in terms of their own constitution, or administration of competitions unique to themselves (ie handicaps, off-the-spot, women going first in Mixed doubles, etc, etc) but the Playing Rules should be universal.

Re: what to do when the bar drops short - or fails to drop at all- , a definitive rule exists as follows:

7). Table time ........... will be a minimum 15 minutes and a maximum 20 minutes. If the table runs for less than 15 mins the bar will be pulled again and play will continue until 15 minutes at which point any balls going into holes will be retained as if the bar had dropped. If the bar has not dropped by 20 minutes any balls returning to the trap will be retained by the scorer as if the bar has dropped.

This has always been a difficult one, and we lost a team from Mid Sussex this season over an incident when it couldn't be proved that the game had run short.

In such circumstances the scorer has to have his wits about him and behave with authority - and fairness - and the rest of the players have to take it on trust. (All part of the 'spirit of the game'  - which is not provisioned anywhere in the rules! ;D)

as one of the lesser players,in my opinion the aebba can not dictate how seperate associations run there leagues, what are they going to do? withdraw are affiliation

[milko]

This thread has gone completely off topic! ???

Jan 21, 2012 18:22:25 GMT milko said:

This thread has gone completely off topic! ???

Agreed, Milko,

I think we could safely hive the last half-dozen posts off on to a new thread.
I'll call it "Is there an AEBBA Rule to cover it?"  - for want of something better.

tommo

[enzo]

You are right guys, apologies for straying off topic there ;)

Jan 21, 2012 11:41:30 GMT tommo III said:

This has always been a difficult one, and we lost a team from Mid Sussex this season over an incident when it couldn't be proved that the game had run short.

The rules never say that the game has to be timed either  :-/ and if so surely it should be by the scorer?


I know all this seems a little pointless but in the long run, if we iron out these creases then we'll have far less conflict, or if no one is on-board, I'll just continue being extremely geeky and bringing all my rules with me to play matches so there's no arguments :)

[BB Warrior]

Jan 24, 2012 7:51:58 GMT enzo said:

You are right guys, apologies for straying off topic there ;)

Jan 21, 2012 11:41:30 GMT tommo III said:

This has always been a difficult one, and we lost a team from Mid Sussex this season over an incident when it couldn't be proved that the game had run short.

The rules never say that the game has to be timed either  :-/ and if so surely it should be by the scorer?

I know all this seems a little pointless but in the long run, if we iron out these creases then we'll have far less conflict, or if no one is on-board, I'll just continue being extremely geeky and bringing all my rules with me to play matches so there's no arguments :)

Firstly, AEBBA Rule 7 covers the minimum (15 minutes) and maximum (20 minutes) times that the game should last..... although it doesn't state that anybody should specifically time the game, but I can think of very few games that are played where nobody is timing the game whether it is the players involved or members of their teams.

Much as I admire your enthusiasm for this subject, I do think that you have to bear in mind that the majority of players (especially in Local Leagues) play the game for FUN.... it is NOT a professional game and I would suggest that a vast majority of players do not know all of the Rules and mistakes will be made on occasions in interpreting the Rules correctly.

Let us assume that a Rule is introduced that means the scorer HAS to time the game.... do all players have stopwatches, or does the home team have to supply one to be used during the course of the match?  What would happen if the stopwatch used by the scorer said that the game had lasted a different length of time to one being used by one of the players.... there are often discrepancies of 10-20 seconds on how long a table has run between 2 players timing the game at the moment.... so would that make the game void??

The problem that Tommo referred to above came about entirely because 1 team knew the Rule about the minimum length of time and the other team didn't.... there was then a difference of opinion as to how long the game had lasted anyway and, as a result of that, one of the teams completely withdrew from the League that they had played in for about 20 years. :'(

So, although I agree that we should all play under the same Rules and these should be adhered to in the course of every game.... common sense and the thought that we should all be playing the game for enjoyment should always take priority in my opinion.

[BB Warrior]

A couple of other quick points on this subject and I will then leave it to others to take the matter further if they wish to....

1) The Forum is a great place to DISCUSS subjects like this and I am sure that many people have their own ideas about what should be in the Rules.... but remember that the ONLY place that any decisions can be made are at AGM's, either Nationally at the AEBBA or through local County and League Meetings, and proposals should be made in plenty of time to ensure that these can be considered at those meetings.

2) If we are looking to get everybody playing off the same set of Rules, the initial changes MUST be made at the top of the game.... ie at the AEBBA AGM in December.  There is no point in making changes at County & League AGM's which are normally held in the Summer as, even if they are agreed at those meetings, if they are not then accepted at the AEBBA AGM subsequently.

3) The only way to avoid that would possibly be to get the League AGM's to vote on adopting the AEBBA Playing Rules en bloc and then making any further changes at the AEBBA AGM.... however you would then need to propose and adoption of the revised Rules at the following years League / County AGM's as I do not believe that the changes to the Rules at AEBBA level would apply to the League & Counties Rules until these have been voted on at either an AGM or EGM.... :-/

4) Personally speaking, much as I would like to see a "standard" set of Rules that everybody adheres to, I can't see this ever happening.... except at the "top level" in AEBBA Tournaments and County Opens.  The reason that I say this is simple, in local Leagues there are too few people who will want to take the proposal forward and, even if they do, there are too many people who will say that "our Rules work for us under the formats that we play".

So, unless every League has an "Enzo", we will still end up with different Leagues having slightly different Rules.... is that such a bad thing?  Common sense, combined with remembering that we all play the game for fun, is surely more important.... ;)

[enzo]

Jan 24, 2012 11:47:00 GMT BB Warrior said:

So, unless every League has an 'Enzo', we will still end up with different Leagues having slightly different Rules....

I appreciate that the effort involved is not for everyone but I am quite keen to at least get the leagues I play in or against are playing by the same rules, and if other counties/leagues don't chose to adapt then they can deal with the repercussions.

I have done the legwork for the LBBL, WDBLL, BDBBL & the SCBBA so they should expect me at the AGMs this year, and I hope I don't have any objections unless anyone thinks the rule changes/amendments would impact the enjoyment or would not suit the league.

I still have confidence in the AEBBA rules taking precedence as if any team disagrees with the discrepancies between the national and local rules then this will be put forward to committees and as it is their responsibility to keep in line with the AEBBA rules, the ruling should fall in favour of the AEBBA rules.

It may seem a lot of work for 'nothing' and a lot of "if it's not broken don't fix it" people step in, but it is all in favour or everyone's enjoyment in the game and should stop arguments etc.

[BB Warrior]

Mar 2, 2012 12:59:23 GMT enzo said:

I appreciate that the effort involved is not for everyone but I am quite keen to at least get the leagues I play in or against are playing by the same rules, and if other counties/leagues don't chose to adapt then they can deal with the repercussions.

I have done the legwork for the LBBL, WDBLL, BDBBL & the SCBBA so they should expect me at the AGMs this year, and I hope I don't have any objections unless anyone thinks the rule changes/amendments would impact the enjoyment or would not suit the league.

Enzo, just remember that you will probably need to submit all of your proposals in writing to the appropriate people within each League and SCBBA before the deadline set before each of the AGM's.... you won't be able to just turn up and submit them on the night. ;)

You will probably need a seconder to have your proposals considered and you should attend all of the meetings to be able to answer any objections you may have to your proposals if you hope to persuade the people at the AGM that your changes will make a difference that will benefit the League and the players in it..... and that is what you will have to try to convince people of if you are to be successful with this. ;)

You have to try to bear in mind that people are naturally resistant to change, when it is just for the sake of change, the old expression "don't fix it if it isn't broken" springs to mind, so you must expect some people to object.... especially if you charge in like a bull in a china shop about it. :-/

I'm also not quite sure what you mean by "if other counties/leagues don't choose to adapt then they can deal with the repercussions".... ??? :o

What repercussions..... ??? ??? ???

[Chris]

Enzo

Consider this rule used at local level in the Portsmouth League which is different to AEBBA rules

In our league the Black Peg counts at all times regardless of any other foul that has taken place e.g. the white has been knocked down first.

For me it takes out that part about making judgements as to whether it was a deliberate foul or not.
As Dave said in his last post 'What repercussions'?   We all know this is the rule in our league and it works well.
As Dave said also 'if it ain't broke why fix it'?

This was not put up for debate about this rule just given as an example of a rule that is different to AEBBA and works well at local level.

Regards
Chris

[bigtj]

Some very good points but for whatever reasons most AGMS are poorly attended, so we will only get a minority opinion voting on rule changes. And although anyone can attend this is not going to happen.

Most committees are made up of a hard core of people who try their best to do what is right for their league, but some go onto committe to make the numbers up and really do not input much in the way of interactive participation in discussions. In fact out of those who attend meetings, how many of them seek their own teams views to feed back, I suggest the majority are talking about their own opinions.

There are many reasons for low attendance (apathy, happy to let others make the decisions, financial, other commitmernts etc). This is not liable to change, but I do feel some rules shuld be nationally adopted, but that local leagues must have some say in adapting the rules to suit their particular league situation.

Also as already stated the game is a pub game played for fun in the
most part, and in these times when we are having trouble encouraging new blood, and trying to keep hold of those who are already playing, it may discourage some if we are always tinkering with the rules. As a last pointIam sure that even a number of captains do not know their local rules, let alone the AEEBA rules, and in fact unless something crops up do not actually worry about finding out the rules. Nationally all competitions should be run the same, snd I believe they are, but I am sure you will get some local leagues that will object to be dictated to when it comes to local rule amendments.

[enzo]

Dave -> I am aware that I will have to disclose my proposals prior to the AGMs and have prepared accordingly. I know I will not be welcomed at said AGMs and told to mind my own business but I'm not necessarily saying ALL the rules should be changed, just considered. I don't necessarily agree with all of the changes but the certainly do need to be addressed. The repercussions being disturbances in the league leading to players or teams dropping out or refusing to play each other and wasting the committee's time unnecessarily.

Chris -> This is one of the rules I am aiming at, and has caused quite a few arguments due to different league's rules on the subject, again I'm not saying they should have to change their rule but at least discussed.


TJ -> All valid points, but it is the league's duty to conform with the County and in turn the AEBBA rules.
Bringing this back to my original point.. There has been several instances just in the time that I have been playing that some quite aggressive discussion regarding rules including players leaving or refusing to play against that team again purely because both teams stood by their league rules.
In terms of 'fun' and 'enjoyment' of the league, this is clearly avoidable with minor rule phrase readjustment without destroying the individuality of the league itself.

Once more I feel myself representing a lot of the lower division/less seasoned players who are often forgotten and as you quite rightly say TJ, we must encourage and look after new blood. The majority of the veterans have known the rules for years and is second nature, but to newer players we need to know which rules to adhere to and not have confrontations over silly rule technicalities.

[BB Warrior]

Mar 3, 2012 11:00:09 GMT enzo said:

TJ -> All valid points, but it is the league's duty to conform with the County and in turn the AEBBA rules.
Bringing this back to my original point.. There has been several instances just in the time that I have been playing that some quite aggressive discussion regarding rules including players leaving or refusing to play against that team again purely because both teams stood by their league rules.
In terms of 'fun' and 'enjoyment' of the league, this is clearly avoidable with minor rule phrase readjustment without destroying the individuality of the league itself.

Once more I feel myself representing a lot of the lower division/less seasoned players who are often forgotten and as you quite rightly say TJ, we must encourage and look after new blood. The majority of the veterans have known the rules for years and is second nature, but to newer players we need to know which rules to adhere to and not have confrontations over silly rule technicalities.

A few quick points....

I assume that must be referring to only the AEBBA Rules of Play and Playing Conditions when you state that League's and Counties have a "duty to conform" with the AEBBA Rules...?

It doesn't seem to make sense to me that you want to get everybody to play from the same set of Rules.... but then state that newer players "need to know which rules to adhere to"! :o  Surely, you either adhere to the Rules.... whether you are a newer player or a "veteran".... or you don't? :P

To me, a combination of common sense and remembering that we are meant to be playing the game for "fun and enjoyment" has always overcome any issues that crop up during a game.... if playing from the same set of Rules in every League means that will continue then I would be all in favour of this.  But if it means that we all carry round a set of Rules and have to refer to them during every game to sort out a dispute, count me out.... ::)

On a final note, if you are planning on changing any of the AEBBA Rules, remember that the AGM for that isn't until December so any changes there would not come into force within local Leagues and Counties until the AGM's held in 2013.

[enzo]

Yes, just the general rules of play etc I appreciate there are a lot of rules that can be changed to suit a league.

Ok you have a valid point Dave, some of the veterans may be equally as poorly read up on the rules but it was a generalisation that the vets know the rules and the new players don't. A lot of the rules are learnt by way of mouth and it becomes Chinese whispers. This is what made me study up on the rules as we've had quite a few 'unofficial' rules been told to us that are nowhere in the rules ???  Most people aren't a loser like me who reads the rules ::)

The main one people don't enforce in the lower divs is that if you play a shot and it doesn't go through an imaginary line through the black peg then it is returned to the tray. Also the other one about if you cannot play a shot from one side of the table it can be moved to the other side.

The close runner-up is the 'waling away from the table' rule, where in fact the rules don't state that walking away from the table means end of break, but in fact it's up to the scorer to decide. Games and in turn matches have been lost due to this.

Mar 3, 2012 12:16:36 GMT BB Warrior said:

On a final note, if you are planning on changing any of the AEBBA Rules,

Noo I'll let you veterans decide what's good for our game, I just want less arguments :) (and yes I realise this could probably been seen as an argument to stop arguments :-X)

Mar 19, 2012 10:04:12 GMT enzo said:

The main one people don't enforce in the lower divs is that if you play a shot and it doesn't go through an imaginary line through the black peg then it is returned to the tray. Also the other one about if you cannot play a shot from one side of the table it can be moved to the other side.

The close runner-up is the 'waling away from the table' rule, where in fact the rules don't state that walking away from the table means end of break, but in fact it's up to the scorer to decide. Games and in turn matches have been lost due to this.

Most bar billiards I've met are pretty level-headed people with enough general awareness of the Rules to get by.  The Rules are there to serve and guide rather than to make us all 'slaves' to them.

The 'ball must reach imaginary line level with the black' rule is a relatively new Rule proposed by Oxon a few years ago and most serious players should be acquainted with it by now, though I agree there are the odd few look shocked to learn of it when it comes up in play.

The 'walking away from the table' rule doesn't exist, it's up to the scorers discretion to decide if the break has finished or not.

I've never heard of a rule whereby if you cannot play a shot from one side of the table it can be moved to the other side.

[BB Warrior]

Mar 19, 2012 10:19:19 GMT tommo III said:

I've never heard of a rule whereby if you cannot play a shot from one side of the table it can be moved to the other side.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no "official Rule" that states that anybody can move a ball from one side of the table to the other in the event of an obstruction that means that you cannot play the original shot.... however it is generally accepted as a "local rule" that this can be done in certain venues where there is restricted access to parts of the table due to the position of the table. ;)

It's one of those situations where common sense comes into play rather than just the Rules as they are written.... although some Leagues have a rule that state that there must be clear access to play any shot from the D which obviously mean that the situation should not arise. ;)

But in these times where finding venues is not always easy, sometimes compromises have to be made and it's better to have a venue with perhaps a restricted access to a small part of the table than no venue at all. ::)

Agree 100% with Warrior's assessment.

And I can recall a funny incident to demonstrate how we dealt with a situation.

There was briefly a league venue the Crown at Capel (on the way to Dorking).  Tiny pub and to fit a bar billiards table in it had to be up against the wall of the bar and next to a window.

When facing shots off the cushion to the left-hand 50 most of us right-handers could just about cope, but left-hander Mick Holmwood struggled.

His game got down to the last ball, and the right cushion was a bit dead, so to pot the 100 (which he did) he had to open the window and sit in the window frame with his ar$e hanging out in the street ! ;D

There was no doubt that the playing conditions were 'illegal' - but did we care ? It all added to the enjoyment of the evening. 8-)

[davejones]

Mar 19, 2012 10:51:11 GMT BB Warrior said:

Mar 19, 2012 10:19:19 GMT tommo III said:

I've never heard of a rule whereby if you cannot play a shot from one side of the table it can be moved to the other side.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no "official Rule" that states that anybody can move a ball from one side of the table to the other in the event of an obstruction that means that you cannot play the original shot.... however it is generally accepted as a "local rule" that this can be done in certain venues where there is restricted access to parts of the table due to the position of the table. ;)

It's one of those situations where common sense comes into play rather than just the Rules as they are written.... although some Leagues have a rule that state that there must be clear access to play any shot from the D which obviously mean that the situation should not arise. ;)

But in these times where finding venues is not always easy, sometimes compromises have to be made and it's better to have a venue with perhaps a restricted access to a small part of the table than no venue at all. ::)

The Dolphin where Enzo plays is a table where left-handers cannot play the 100 hole or any shot lower than the 100 hole off the left cushion due to the wall!