lloydy
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Posts: 61
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Post by lloydy on Feb 26, 2007 18:45:10 GMT
It's a bit different Mark, he's Austrailian and has played for them hundreds of times!
It would be good to get the Littlehamton point of view on this......
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2007 19:29:06 GMT
Oh, and by way of an aside, before you bring in a rule requiring players to play 4 H&A games before becoming eligible for the 1-day comp, you might want to spare a thought for poor old West Sussex, who won't be able to do that (they have a 1-day team but no H&A team, for those who don't know). While it's good to see a counter-viewpoint, (as I'm feeling a bit sorry for the poor old Littlehampton captain who's being told who he can and who he can't have in his team), Mark you're doing a disservice with your last comment to people who are trying to help. Marcus's quite inoccuous suggestion which seemed quite a good idea at the time was not intended as a panacea to be voted on for or against here and now, it was intended to prompt some serious discussion as to how things might be 'put right' for next year. Maybe I was too anxious in wading in with backing for it, really my thought is on the qualification for representing someone at Interleague (in whatever system) in the first place. There must be something to qualify your allegience to a particular League, and at the moment it is just that you have to be registered for that league. So really anyone from anywhere could qualify to play for anyone just on a telephone call or by dropping a line or by whatever simple means. This is where the "four games rule" could be brought in if people wanted it. The Interleague "handcuffing" idea might not be a good one in retrospect - it certainly wouldn't be advantageous to the likes of you or I - or even the Chellester -who play in more than one League. The reference to West-Sussex team is of not much consequence -as an anomaly nothing could be enforced, and I'm sure they wouldn't be excluded from the one-day competition as a result.
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Post by davejones on Feb 26, 2007 20:26:42 GMT
I dont know who the other players are but presume that they play in Worthing B and because of Worthings selection process choose instead to play for Littlehampton. The problem is not Worthing's selection process. The fact is that Worthing have two teams in the A League H/A. Only one team can represent the League for the Division 1 A league One-Day comp. So some of the B team players (who also play Littlehampton) have decided to play in the Div 1 One Dayer. Depriving Worthing B of a team capable of winning the competition, so withdrawing?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2007 21:16:58 GMT
The "Game" therefore is one of Musical Chairs.
Littlehampton suddenly acquire a plethora of players. In an ideal world the Littlehampton players thus deposed would form a B team to play in the lesser competition. But everyone wants to play in the top League, and three into two won't go. Musical chairs. Surely some re-structuring must take place next year, to balance out the competitions.
Maybe Alan Messer can come up with a recommendation which could help to avoid similar pitfalls next time around.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2007 22:01:01 GMT
Got it !
The answer's staring us in the face........ 6 teams played last Sunday in the lower division for 'A' teams. 5 teams (Brighton, Worthing, Littlehampton, Mid Sussex and Redhill) will take part in the top division this Sunday.
And B teams - by name - aren't able to take part in the A competition. So Worthing B don't get a sniff, although who's to say they don't deserve one ?
I put it to you that Worthing B are a special case, as they are unique in being a B team playing in the Home/Away Div One.
So why not - for the purposes of the one-day competition, call them the EXTRA A's.
You'd get 6 teams this Saturday, then, it would not only get round the embarrassing situation, but it would balance out the games for ranking purposes afterwards.
The same programme with timings as last week could be adopted.
There's still FOUR whole days to sort it ! Hold an EGM if need be to officialise it, and get it in the constitution, eg "Any B team participating in the top division of the Home and Away section of Interleague shall count as an Extra A team for the One Day event for that season only."
I'm sure there will be opposition to this, and I'll accept the time factor as an excuse. But personal prejudices against B teams in general is not IMHO a valid reason for not adopting this solution.
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Post by 4timeschamp on Feb 26, 2007 22:17:56 GMT
I dont know who the other players are but presume that they play in Worthing B and because of Worthings selection process choose instead to play for Littlehampton. The problem is not Worthing's selection process. The fact is that Worthing have two teams in the A League H/A. Only one team can represent the League for the Division 1 A league One-Day comp. So some of the B team players (who also play Littlehampton) have decided to play in the Div 1 One Dayer. Depriving Worthing B of a team capable of winning the competition, so withdrawing? dave i have to disagree, as it has already been stated it is an open competition and officially seperate from the home and away comp. therefore, worthings 1 day team could be selected from there a and b side. It is their selection committee's choice that this is not so.
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Post by JB on Feb 26, 2007 22:30:56 GMT
Got it ! And B teams - by name - aren't able to take part in the A competition. So Worthing B don't get a sniff, although who's to say they don't deserve one ? I put it to you that Worthing B are a special case, as they are unique in being a B team playing in the Home/Away Div One. So why not - for the purposes of the one-day competition, call them the EXTRA A's. Now im confused tommo. (dont take a lot i know) What happens with the Worthing B player (who plays home & away div 1) who played last week in Worthing B side for the B team competition. Are they now allowed to play for Worthing Extras
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2007 23:33:50 GMT
Now im confused tommo. (dont take a lot i know) What happens with the Worthing B player (who plays home & away div 1) who played last week in Worthing B side for the B team competition. Are they now allowed to play for Worthing Extras Well, Jean, I was just going by the fact that the three teams named as having taken part in this year's competition for B teams were: Brighton B, Worthing C and Worthing D. (No Worthing B, note). Of course no-one who has already played in that competition should be allowed to play again in the A section.
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Post by NigelS on Feb 27, 2007 0:12:09 GMT
Well this has got everyone talking about inter league bar billiards!
I think the crux of the matter is what is an acceptable player's playing history to be able to represent a league at inter league level.
Firstly to be registered for a team that is a member of that league is a prerequesite, and lets face it that is very easy to arrange if necessary. So it has to be more than that.
The problem with making a rule that I referred to in my earlier post is that some teams have an excess of players and some are struggling to raise a team - as always. Therefore a stringent rule may stop players representing a league that perhaps they shouldn't represent could also prevent other leagues raising a side. This has clearly happened this year, with Chelle, through no fault of her own, at the centre of it. She is dropped for Littlehampton with them having an excess of players, and makes up the numbers for Brighton Ladies when without her they would have no side.
I personally have no problem with Chelle representing Brighton Ladies - they need a player, and although ahe is not an active player, she is registered with the Brewery Tap, but, more importantly IMO, has a history with the Brighton League in that she has played for many years in Brighton in the past, and is a former ladies champion. On the other side I heard Pauline Withey, Dawn Jordan and Sue Atkins were asked to represent Littlehampton. They are good players, of course, but how can they represent a league that they have no affiliation with. Ok it may mean Littlehampton Ladies will have a team, but what is the point when none of them play or have ever played in Littlehampton - that I do have a problem with as the competition loses all its meaning.
Then we get onto the second issue of when you have too many players, who do you pick? I have said before that as a former captain I felt my loyalties lay with the regular players of my inter league side, if any of them were unavailable then I would investigate the possibility of bringing in other willing players. I have to agree with Jim in that although not against the rules it would sit very uncomfortably with me to drop a player who turned up for me every week for a stronger player just to give me a stronger 1 day side.
So how can we move forward, and can a rule be implemented? As I said I think we may need to define what a player has done in the past that would make them eligible apart from just registering for a team. Maybe having played in that league during the last 'x' number of years, or played a certain percentage of matches. Overall though a defining rule is probably impossible to enforce - it is hard enough at the team nationals! Captains must take responsibility and as long as they are comfortable with what they decide, they should be allowed to make those decisions.
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Owners' Account
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Post by Owners' Account on Feb 27, 2007 1:20:18 GMT
Well said Nigel...
At the end of the day, what myself and others are objecting too is loyal team members being ousted just for stronger players in the one day side. If these players feel a strong affiliation and passionate urge to play for Littlehampton, then why are they not wanting to play in the regular Inter-League side?
Or even in the league all together for that matter......
If I may be so bold, I think it takes a special kind of arrogance to consider this kind of behaviour acceptable...
But there is one solution that I can see on the horizon. I refer to the current Sussex rule on this matter... which has been discussed already in this thread….
The Sussex rules state that:
"SECONDARY" COMPETITION - ONE DAY BASIS - THIS IS AN 'OPEN' COMPETITION
1. REGISTRATION - In this competition, a player may play for another league than the one represented in the main competition, if the original league does not make any formal objection.
I would like to know right now which players are intending to play for Littlehampton this Sunday. As a registered member of the Worthing League, if someone has indeed played for Worthing Inter-League this year and is playing for Littlehampton this Sunday, I would like to register the following....
I formally Object....
I of course will be putting this objection in writing to the Worthing Committee... however it's hard unless someone tells me who exactly the players in question are..... which of course I’m sure we are not going to know until the day giving us no time to object...
Is that in itself not a violation of Sussex County Bar Billiards Rules.... Can I have my right to object please?
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 27, 2007 8:47:50 GMT
As I would now guess from this post and the Ladies International post that this is all directed at KT I am invoking a 24 hour cooling off period whilst I ascertain the facts.
Please do not start another post whilst i consult with the other senior staff, they will be deleted on sight and the poster banned as per the rules of this board.
Please bear with me.
Sav.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 27, 2007 10:48:58 GMT
Update;
I have spoken to KT and have had several representations from Sussex to continue this as a Sussex rules debate.
This I agree to PROVIDED further posts are on the current theme of how to pick future interleague sides and NOT on what has gone before.
Sav
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Post by JB on Feb 27, 2007 12:55:13 GMT
LADIES ONE DAY INTER LEAGUE - SELECTION
Just wanted to say about the selction for the ladies one day interleague as this has been mentioned a couple of times on this thread.
Two years ago there wasnt a one day ladies as it had been forgotten about due to lack of attendance at this event. About five different people last year asked me if i could try to re-instate this event. When i spoke to Alan Messer he said there was an available date over the one day weekend and if i could sort it and get the teams there he was willing to run the day.
After a lot of time and expense on phone calls etc i manged to get five teams there for the day. Because of lack of ladies in some leagues we amalgated some towns so they could get five players (Lewes Mid Sussex Billingshurst as an example). Between myself Gina & Chelle we worked it so that each team had 5 players regardless of whether they played for their main league or not. The day was a great success and was enjoyed by all, The comments i received after made the effort worthwhile. Most of the comments were from ladies who turn up to watch their other halves play and never get a game. They were comments like: What a great day really loved it going to start practising more now - Didnt mind watching someone put 7000 past me as i learnt a lot from watching - Enjoyed it and want to start playing more. This to me is what bar billiards is all about. 25 ladies half of which dont play regularly having a great day. It really didnt matter who played for who. If one of the teams was short who cared if (just using this as an example) Kim from Hastings played for Littlehampton or Worthing. I would like to invite any Sussex players who cant get a team in their own league due to lack of players to join another team. If you dont want to call it Inter-League just call it a Ladies Day or something.
This year there seems to be some disagreement how selection is made. Chelle playing for Brighton is one. Littlehampton could not get a team this year and two weeks ago i was short of a player so Chelle is helping Brighton out and playing for us. Hopefully there are now going to be 5 teams of 5 players. Redhill have contacted me to say their B team may be a player short and rather than tell 4 players they now cant play i have said i will find them another player. Looks like a Littlehampton lady is going to play for them. Does this matter and will there be complaints about it?
At the end of the day the comments i received from mostly non playing ladies last year made the day worthwhile but if were going to insist on rules to stop playing leagues other than their own then forget the ladies coz it wont and cant happen unless you only want two teams in it. I also hope someone else is willing to put the work in next year coz after all the problems this year it wont be me doing it.
Back to how to stop the problems that this post was about its quite simple really. Drop all the one days and go back to just home & away inter-league!!
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Mark James
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Post by Mark James on Feb 27, 2007 13:02:00 GMT
Oh what the hell, here goes...
As the representative of the minority viewpoint in this debate, here are my thoughts on how IL teams should be selected.
The H&A IL & the 1-day IL are two entirely different competitions from each other. This is clearly so because; there are teams which play in one but not the other (West Sussex); there are teams which are in different divisions in each competition (Horsham in 2007); there are leagues which can field 2 teams in one but not the other (Worthing at present time). The two events have a different playing format from each other, on differently playing BB tables (tournament tops v familiar pub table). Some players are better at one of these disciplines than the other, so it does not automatically follow that a team selected for one such event should always be the same as that for the other, despite the pre-conceived notions of the majority. To assume that participation in one of these competitions confers on an individual player some kind of selection priority for the other is in my opinion wholly wrong. Everyone in BB is an amateur (even KT!) utilising their leisure time & money as they are able and as best they see fit. We all make individual choices about what leagues/tournaments etc. we will/will not play for all sorts of reasons. Playing in the H&A interleague is not the act of selfless sacrifice portrayed by some contributors to this debate, it’s just another example of voluntary participation in a particular BB competition, and it’s no more or less worthy than playing in any other BB competition.
If I was to suggest that a player who is unavailable for the 1-day competition should not be considered for the H&A IL, I’d be shouted down in a hurry, yet the reverse of this is accepted by many of the contributors to this debate without question.
The main thing about interleague is that it is supposed to be a representative rather than a club competition. This is something that seems to have been gotten away from to a large extent, and many of the comments in this debate are ascribing club values where these are inappropriate. Contrary to popular belief, the selection of teams is not the personal fiefdom of whoever happens to be the captain, any IL selection is ultimately the responsibility of the league whose shirt (metaphorical) those players will wear, even if in practice this duty is invariably delegated in it’s entirety to the captain.
With this in mind, I would contend that a league should select as it’s “A” team the best eligible players it has available for selection for the event in question. Each league will have their own rules about what constitutes eligibility, and it would be very difficult for SCBBA to interfere in any league’s internal affairs regarding this. As for who the best players are, again that’s up to the league to decide.
If only it were so simple… :) :) :)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2007 13:16:41 GMT
If only it were so simple… :) :) :) I think the crux of the matter is that the One-Day competition purports to be an 'Open' competition, and it is anything but - if seven of Sussex's best players (Worthing B in the top div of the Home and Away) are perpetually denied a shot at the top prize.
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Post by little legs on Feb 27, 2007 14:19:16 GMT
Tommo
I don't know the set up of the Worting A and B teams but this an A team competition so the players in the B team are B players who should be pushing to get into the A (H/A league) and earn their place by right.
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Post by JB on Feb 27, 2007 14:41:23 GMT
Is it an A team one day or Div 1 or Div 1 A teams. At the moment its the last one coz other A teams play in the Div 2 one day.
If its classed as an A team comp then surely all A teams should be included the end result to find the best league in Sussex. You could then have all B & C teams in another comp on another day. This way Worthing B could enter the B & C competition. Also if its as stated that it is completely separate to the home & away surely all A teams should be competing against each other for the trophy. Hope that made sense coz ive confused myself now.
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Post by little legs on Feb 27, 2007 14:59:46 GMT
Jean
Looks to me like all A teams are invited to enter but split into 2 divisions,promotion and relegation relates to performance on one day not home and away league.Any other b c d z teams are invited to play on a seperate day,so i can't see why Worthing B did not play last week(other than their playing for another team in div 1).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2007 15:19:56 GMT
Tommo I don't know the set up of the Worting A and B teams but this an A team competition so the players in the B team are B players who should be pushing to get into the A (H/A league) and earn their place by right. I'll answer this one first for Kev. As it stands, there is never any promotion on offer for Worthing B players in the One Day interleague. They could enter and win the B section ten years on the trot and never get into the main competition, because promotion and relegation only applies between the two divisions of the main section. And to say Worthing B players should aspire to get into Worthing A misses the point. They enjoy the same status, and their results in the Home/Away competition would suggest there's not much of a gap between the two.
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Post by JB on Feb 27, 2007 15:26:06 GMT
Ok got it now.
Can someone clarify whether Worthing B are eligible to enter the B comp. I assume they are from the above posts. If they are why do they not enter this competition. I know they cannot get promoted but the more teams the merrier and im sure some of them would enjoy the day
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Post by Chippers on Feb 27, 2007 15:27:39 GMT
Playing in the H&A interleague is not the act of selfless sacrifice portrayed by some contributors to this debate, it’s just another example of voluntary participation in a particular BB competition, and it’s no more or less worthy than playing in any other BB competition. Selfless sacrifice.................hmmm you should try raising a team for a cold January sunday night, Its not always that easy. Any player standing in has normally been rung last minute and has indeed committed an act of Selfless sacrifice. It has to be said that the one day is very much more enjoyable and finding players is normally not that hard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2007 15:30:53 GMT
Jean Looks to me like all A teams are invited to enter but split into 2 divisions,promotion and relegation relates to performance on one day not home and away league.Any other b c d z teams are invited to play on a seperate day,so i can't see why Worthing B did not play last week(other than their playing for another team in div 1). Now this one. The absence of a Worthing B looks like a protest vote. Which has probably been coming for years. As has been pointed out, one player who would have played, played in the Worthing C (I'm beginning to sound like Jean now !) and a couple of the others preferred to throw their hat in the ring for Littlehampton. It's a pity that the B competition lost a team as a result (Redhill B not turning up compounded the problem which left a competition with just 3 teams), but if a summit had been arranged between the Worthing and Littlehampton leagues (too much to ask), a team could have been formed out of Worthing B and Littlehampton A 'rejects'. But we are talking top-line players here, why should they be held back year in, year out ?
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Post by JB on Feb 27, 2007 15:39:07 GMT
So why dont we have three divisions instead of two. This way all A B C & D teams can play and can get promoted and relegated from each division. This way Worthing B can play and if there good enough will end up in 1st Division anyway.
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Post by JB on Feb 27, 2007 15:41:58 GMT
(I'm beginning to sound like Jean now !)
CAREFUL
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Post by little legs on Feb 27, 2007 15:56:05 GMT
Not sure exactly when the b competition was started,(buts its a comp for us lesser lights) when i have played these days either for brighton b or c sides they have always been great fun,everyone trying their hardest to win during those 20 mins of game times,but enjoying the company of other teams during the rest of the day.It was good to win but at the end of the day you knew next year you all start level again.I was with my status and others that are thats fine but if you think you're good enough,play well and make them pick you for the A team.A night out with mates is all i look for but an A team should be the best 7 players in that town/county/country.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2007 16:04:42 GMT
So why dont we have three divisions instead of two. This way all A B C & D teams can play and can get promoted and relegated from each division. This way Worthing B can play and if there good enough will end up in 1st Division anyway. At last, someone comes up with a decent, positive suggestion... Not (for a change) a reason why we can't do something. ::) I am all for freedom of the individual to participate - the County rules mention that the One Day Interleague is an "Open" competition: I've said before, it doesn't look very "open" from where I'm standing ! So first of all, if Worthing doesn't want to put its A and B teams together and have an improved side but leave 7 players out in the cold, that is their right; Secondly, as most of the B players play in Littlehampton, again, Littlehampton are quite within their rights to improve their team, especially as they have been the whipping boys of the Home and Away this season. But again, seven players will be left out in the cold - hence my analogy last night of a game of musical chairs. I would put forward a hypothetical case of if Brighton had entered a super B team and played in the Home/Away top section this year. Perhaps T.Race/H.Leeson/M.James/J.Millward plus Colin Smith, Grant Tully and Sue Mariner. All were anxious to play in the one-dayer and to earn a few Sussex RPs. Brighton would have the soulsearching decision of whether or not to try and improve on Senior/Reeves/Lloyd/Wooton/Mariner/Tupper and Chubb. Or to say we're the A team and you're the B's - tough luck. 7 fantastic players would then be denied the right to showcase their talent, win a competition, and improve their rankings within the county. The answer is either as Jean has suggested, although, Jean, this came up before several years ago and there was a lot of opposition to it - or my own one of earlier: call Worthing B the Worthing extra-A's for the purposes of this competition, then there is room for everybody ! This will go down like a lead balloon as per usual, but I really do think that Worthing B - a good bunch of lads - are being discriminated against here, and it goes completely against the spirit of the game if we don't sort out a mechanism by which to accomodate them.
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Post by JB on Feb 27, 2007 16:16:59 GMT
So if there were 3 divisions and teams like Worthing B were playing do you think people would then stick to the team they play home & away for rather than swap about for the one day? This could solve some problems of the original meaning to this thread.
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Post by Chippers on Feb 27, 2007 16:25:45 GMT
Question?
Are the 3 new players being brought in by littlehampton, actually registered for teams in the littlehampton league ? and if so has this been done last minute ?
Yes good suggestion Jean..................take it to commitee girl !!
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doug
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Post by doug on Feb 27, 2007 18:19:27 GMT
My turn now!!!!
As Captain of Brighton B I have enjoyed many one day tournaments over the years. I t was always my beef that Worthing B could never be promoted from our competition as they were the 'B' team. Surely common sense would dictate that rather than have a seperate B,C and D team tournament the whole lot is amalgamated into three divisions with each team trying to win promotion of avoid relegation. At the moment all the B team players etc have is the kudos of winning the one day knowing full well that they will be playing pretty much the same teams the following year. The home and away is run over three divisions then why can't the one day be done the same.
It is a great shame to see the B tournament going downhill as with the lack of Worthing B this years it seems to be sadly down graded from it should be ie. Division two of the one day interleague.
Doug
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Post by Lord Cheeky on Feb 27, 2007 19:03:31 GMT
As a Littlehampton player i have ask where are you people getting three extra players from, the only new player bought in is Ian Lleliot and that is only to replace Stuart Mepham who cannot play. The rest of the team is the same as last year and the year before and the year before that, and all players playing all play in the Littlehampton League.
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