mikedaw1985
Full Forum Member
High break: 20,220
Posts: 155
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Post by mikedaw1985 on Dec 6, 2012 21:50:26 GMT
I would like to see the re-instatement of a Rule which was found unworkable in its given wording - at the time when changes were made to Licensing laws. (I believe it quoted a specific time of day, which was too rigid.) I propose that the following stays, and is renumbered as 2 (b): RULES FOR INTER-LEAGUE COMPETITIONS GENERAL 2. The visiting Captain may satisfy him/herself on the level of the table and to facilitate this, the balls are to be made available in the tray upon request in order that he/she may make trial shots to the top of the table. However he/she may not use side cushions, strike another ball or attempt the break shot. .....But a Rule 2 (a) be inserted, thus: "The table shall be prepared by the home team for the match, care being taken as to its level, half-hour or more before the first game is due to commence. But no further practice or 'warming-up' by players shall be allowed within this half-hour period." Reason: a matter of etiquette. I remember when I first started playing in the Hastings league we had a rule like this where no one could play on a match table 24 hours before a league or cup match was due to take place. I think that included preparing the table, apart from brushing, ironing and cleaning pockets. That rule has since been relaxed due to new players and teams coming into the league who do want a practice before a match as they need as much advantage as possible when playing people with multiple years experience. (plus the more they play the better they should become) Thats why I do not begrudge that as I want the league as competitive as possible. Most teams with experienced players in our league dont tend to play on the table just before the match any way other than for leveling purposes.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 6, 2012 23:35:27 GMT
The one day inter league is for one team from each league. The B/C team comp was only introduced because there were a lot of players who wanted to play who would probably never get the opportunity. There was a spare day on the weekend of the ladies so the B competition was introduced. My thoughts are this shouldn't be changed as in reality the B comp doesn't have to take place seems to me, any sussex interleage team should be eligable for the 1 day comp, best not to seperate a's & b's just play best 6 in div 1 and so on
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 6, 2012 23:39:25 GMT
I would like to see the re-instatement of a Rule which was found unworkable in its given wording - at the time when changes were made to Licensing laws. (I believe it quoted a specific time of day, which was too rigid.) I propose that the following stays, and is renumbered as 2 (b): RULES FOR INTER-LEAGUE COMPETITIONS GENERAL 2. The visiting Captain may satisfy him/herself on the level of the table and to facilitate this, the balls are to be made available in the tray upon request in order that he/she may make trial shots to the top of the table. However he/she may not use side cushions, strike another ball or attempt the break shot. .....But a Rule 2 (a) be inserted, thus: "The table shall be prepared by the home team for the match, care being taken as to its level, half-hour or more before the first game is due to commence. But no further practice or 'warming-up' by players shall be allowed within this half-hour period." Reason: a matter of etiquette. I remember when I first started playing in the Hastings league we had a rule like this where no one could play on a match table 24 hours before a league or cup match was due to take place. I think that included preparing the table, apart from brushing, ironing and cleaning pockets. That rule has since been relaxed due to new players and teams coming into the league who do want a practice before a match as they need as much advantage as possible when playing people with multiple years experience. (plus the more they play the better they should become) Thats why I do not begrudge that as I want the league as competitive as possible. Most teams with experienced players in our league dont tend to play on the table just before the match any way other than for leveling purposes. Hi chaps Home team should be allowed to practice right up to start time, just better for the landlord earning an extra quid each match night and the visitors get to see how the table is playing prior to the serious bits (provided the home team dont notice them watching ::))
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 6, 2012 23:51:50 GMT
Still reckon its fairer for double breaks and away team go first on all games, with all players getting the same number of breaks each season the averages and ranking points will actually be a more acurate reflection of each players skills, still happy for not drawn games to keep the captains interested and this still allows flexibility to take account of possible late arrivals or early leavers, but expect little support for it, am quite happy to propose it at AGM time if someone will offer to hold my hand ::)
regs cs
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 23:56:18 GMT
seems to me, any sussex interleage team should be eligable for the 1 day comp, best not to seperate a's & b's just play best 6 in div 1 and so on I echo Jean's words on this one. The One-Day Interleague is a competition for each of the Sussex Leagues to send ONE representative side to compete in. It is a completely separate competition to Home/Away, run on completely different lines. The B/C/D section was started to pad the weekend out and shouldn't impinge on what the main event is about. The point BBW raised about restricting the number of teams in Div.1 is however worthy of discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 0:15:53 GMT
Home team should be allowed to practice right up to start time, just better for the landlord earning an extra quid each match night and the visitors get to see how the table is playing prior to the serious bits (provided the home team dont notice them watching ::)) I often wonder what would happen if the away players tried to join in ?? There is no rule to say they can't - hence my carefully worded proposal saying the home table are allowed to prepare the table on match night etc. Prepare it, brush or iron it, put the light on, leave it to settle, leave the balls in the tray for the opposition. Players still 'warming up' and 'getting their cue arms going' after the opposition have arrived should be totally unnecessary and sends out the wrong signals. Someone arriving 'extra early' while you're still preparing the table is a different matter, one that can't be avoided.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 0:33:02 GMT
Still reckon its fairer for double breaks and away team go first on all games, with all players getting the same number of breaks each season the averages and ranking points will actually be a more acurate reflection of each players skills, still happy for not drawn games to keep the captains interested and this still allows flexibility to take account of possible late arrivals or early leavers, but expect little support for it, am quite happy to propose it at AGM time if someone will offer to hold my hand ::) regs cs Knock a carefully worded proposal together, Gandalf, and if I like it I'll second it. At least then it can go before the AGM. regs, tommo
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 8, 2012 21:24:03 GMT
Home team should be allowed to practice right up to start time, just better for the landlord earning an extra quid each match night and the visitors get to see how the table is playing prior to the serious bits (provided the home team dont notice them watching ::)) I often wonder what would happen if the away players tried to join in ?? There is no rule to say they can't - hence my carefully worded proposal saying the home table are allowed to prepare the table on match night etc. Prepare it, brush or iron it, put the light on, leave it to settle, leave the balls in the tray for the opposition. Players still 'warming up' and 'getting their cue arms going' after the opposition have arrived should be totally unnecessary and sends out the wrong signals. Someone arriving 'extra early' while you're still preparing the table is a different matter, one that can't be avoided. Its all about exposure and income for the jolly old landlord for me tommo, not too bothered about pre match etiquate, the more games that are played the better and the more income for the pub. might be different if the landlord pays for league night fixtures, we have both in eastbourne, in hastings it used to be no practice on match night but as 2 eastbourne teams now play in hastings the rules have been accidently forgotten to allow us chance to have a bit of practice on a table we only see once a week just before match time and it of course allows us to attempt to level up an always joggled table, we pay for ALL our games and Registration fees at the Star and the plough and the landlords help us out with the wonderful food each week. regs cs
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 22:33:54 GMT
Its all about exposure and income for the jolly old landlord for me tommo, not too bothered about pre match etiquate, the more games that are played the better and the more income for the pub. might be different if the landlord pays for league night fixtures, we have both in eastbourne, in hastings it used to be no practice on match night but as 2 eastbourne teams now play in hastings the rules have been accidently forgotten to allow us chance to have a bit of practice on a table we only see once a week just before match time and it of course allows us to attempt to level up an always joggled table, we pay for ALL our games and Registration fees at the Star and the plough and the landlords help us out with the wonderful food each week. regs cs Well that's a huge relief to me that if we caught you practising on the table as we walked in it would purely be for monetary reasons ! Poor old landlord if he is so dependant on an extra quid a night ! The table in my local is on perpetual free-play, the landlord wasn't interested in any 'token' scheme for profit-sharing. The spending power of two teams on home league nights being sufficient to swell his coffers. No joggling or jiggling for us, either, thank you ! ;D Well maybe I did have to go and level it Wed before last after it had been moved, but that's only once since April. rgds tommo
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 9, 2012 0:00:48 GMT
Its all about exposure and income for the jolly old landlord for me tommo, not too bothered about pre match etiquate, the more games that are played the better and the more income for the pub. might be different if the landlord pays for league night fixtures, we have both in eastbourne, in hastings it used to be no practice on match night but as 2 eastbourne teams now play in hastings the rules have been accidently forgotten to allow us chance to have a bit of practice on a table we only see once a week just before match time and it of course allows us to attempt to level up an always joggled table, we pay for ALL our games and Registration fees at the Star and the plough and the landlords help us out with the wonderful food each week.regs cs A case of common sense prevails then in Hastings. 8-) I have to say that this precise situation is exactly why I would vote against Tommo's proposal to stop Home Teams practicing on the table during the 30 minutes leading up to the start of a game.... most Inter League teams are made up of players from different teams with sometimes only a couple of regular "home table" players in the Inter League team and, since it is supposed to be an advantage to play at home, the pre-match practice would be important for those players before their game. ;D Yes, I am sure that the "simple answer" would be for them to arrive earlier if they want to practice.... but most players do have other commitments at weekends and can not necessariliy get down to the venue an hour earlier than they currently need to. ::)
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Post by davejones on Dec 9, 2012 20:36:19 GMT
Its all about exposure and income for the jolly old landlord for me tommo, not too bothered about pre match etiquate, the more games that are played the better and the more income for the pub. might be different if the landlord pays for league night fixtures, we have both in eastbourne, in hastings it used to be no practice on match night but as 2 eastbourne teams now play in hastings the rules have been accidently forgotten to allow us chance to have a bit of practice on a table we only see once a week just before match time and it of course allows us to attempt to level up an always joggled table, we pay for ALL our games and Registration fees at the Star and the plough and the landlords help us out with the wonderful food each week.regs cs A case of common sense prevails then in Hastings. 8-) I have to say that this precise situation is exactly why I would vote against Tommo's proposal to stop Home Teams practicing on the table during the 30 minutes leading up to the start of a game.... most Inter League teams are made up of players from different teams with sometimes only a couple of regular "home table" players in the Inter League team and, since it is supposed to be an advantage to play at home, the pre-match practice would be important for those players before their game. ;D Yes, I am sure that the "simple answer" would be for them to arrive earlier if they want to practice.... but most players do have other commitments at weekends and can not necessariliy get down to the venue an hour earlier than they currently need to. ::) Plus some matches are started earlier in the evening now!
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 11, 2012 10:52:02 GMT
Gandalf put this forward on the "proposals thread" a few days ago..... Rule Amendment Proposal. INTER LEAGUE RULES "MAIN" COMPETITION - HOME & AWAY BASIS rule 1 as existing An Inter-League match will consist of 7 single games, the away team to have the breaks on games 2, 3, 5 & 6 and the home team to have the breaks on games 1, 4 and 7. In each of the seven games the home captain must nominate the home player first at the start of the game. Where two or more players in a team have the same surname the full Christian name shall be entered on the result card and the identity of the first named player be established before the second player be named. Rule 1 as proposed An Inter-League match will consist of 7 single games of double break format, the away team will have the first break and the home team will have the second break in ALL games. In each of the seven games the home captain must nominate the home player first at the start of the game. The full christian name and surname of players shall be entered on the result card and the identity of the first named player be established before the second player be named. regs cs .... and although Tommo mentioned a possible amendment... I haven't lost sight of this one, in case Gandalf was wondering. I have in mind to propose a slight amendment, but I am waiting to see if there is another kindred spirit out there willing to second Gandalf's original first. tommo .... so far nothing has come forward and there has been nobody that has seconded the proposal. ::) So I thought that perhaps we should move it here to give people a chance to view their opinions about this and see if this is something that we want to change. ;) The first thing that I would like to try to establish is WHY Gadalf and Tommo think that it will improve the current format? ??? A previous post from Gandalf.... Glad tommo bought this up again, am all in favour of suggesting ways to change this game to make what i consider a long term improvement to the way this game is played from grass roots level upwards using a revised set of basic rules, to make it fairer and therefore more enjoyable to ALL. I'm of the opinion that this would be a significant step forward. As previously stated just because some think that there is nothing wrong with current format(they are probably right),but it by noway means that an alternative format would not be better. Hopefully we can get some input from people other than the normal posters, or perhaps set up a poll. Still think this format/rule change should be endorsed by AEBBA so that any such change in the basic rules would filter through to affiliated leagues. regs cs .... seems to indicate that it would benefit players at all levels and should be adopted throughout the whole game, but perhaps I have misunderstood that? :-/ If it is to give players that are just starting the game a better chance to improve their game by having the break in every game, then I can perhaps see something in that.... but how does it help those players if their experienced (and presumably better) opponent is then immediately given the break as well without having to do anything to earn it? :o The Inter League Home & Away Competition is supposed to be played as a "representative" competition between all of the Leagues with the best players selected to play for their League. Surely, if a player is picked to represent his team then he must be used to playing (and presumably sometimes winning) both with and against the break.... ;D Under the current format, captains have to think carefully about which players to play with and against the break and, quite often, the "best players" in the team have to play against the break in order to give their team the best chance to win a match, especially in Home games where the away team have more breaks in the match. The individual players who win against the break are also rewarded by gaining more Sussex Ranking Points as well. 8-) The proposed change would remove much of this and would also (in my opinion anyway) result in the "better player" winning more often than at present.... so is that the purpose of the proposal? I'm sorry, but I am really confused about this now.... :o ??? ::) If, as Gandalf has stated above, you really want to make it "fairer and more enjoyable for all" then surely you would have to make it Even Break AND EQUAL TIME in all matches.... which could mean some very late finishes in some games I think!! :o But how many times, in the current format, do we see a "weaker" player go on with the break in a match and win even if they only go off with a fairly small opening break? The first player gets a few on their opening break but comes off leaving the balls either at the back of the table or somewhere awkward. Their "better" opponent moves the tricky balls but doesn't get them in, player one then has an easier job to get the break back and scores some more.... and so it goes on for the rest of the game. Most matches have at least one game like this during the course of the evening I expect and I doubt if there is any player that has ever played the game that has not had this experience.... either in their favour or otherwise!! ::) If this proposal was accepted.... that would stop immediately as the second player would have to do nothing to get the break back. A lot has been said previously here on the Forum about games in Inter League either being "drawn" (rather than nominated) or played as "even break" as that would be fairer to all the players.... but isn't that exactly what already happens in the One Day Inter League Competition?? :P Why would we want to make both competitions the same..... surely different competitions should be played under different rules or it defeats the point of having them as separate competitions?? If the object of the proposal is to make it fairer to newer players and give them the chance to have the break more often then this is something that can be offered in the local Leagues themselves.... and is already the case in some Leagues now as West Sussex, Brighton and Worthing Leagues all have specific rules that cover when a team from a lower Division play a team from a higher Division to make the game more even between the players. 8-) But to want to introduce this to the Inter League Competition (which is supposed to be the "flagship event" in Sussex) to make it fairer when the selected players are meant to be the best in each of the League.... sorry guys, but I really don't understand that at all???? ::)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 11:56:47 GMT
A very strong case put against there, and one side of the argument repeated forcefully.
You say that you are at a loss as to why anyone would ever think of suggesting such a thing.......Thinking back, I think it was purely to level the playing field: naming no names, certain high-profile players are being afforded the break every single time - away AND home, whereas others are lucky if they get the break at all.
This 'cosy' arrangement, which really amounts to 'being seeded' could be seen as artificially enhancing their 'average', and easing their passage into the Sussex Masters through the ranking points system - with knock-on effects such as selection for county etc.
An earlier comment made was that having the break on your own table does not necessarily guarantee a win. But the type of player I am talking about is quite capable of "ten grand and touch up". In the darts world the equivalent of being able to step right up close to the dartboard and stick the dart in the bullseye.
This is supposed to be a team game - team first and individuals second. From the individuals a captain is chosen. At the moment too much is on the captain, and too much pressure is on the individuals to perform. It's cut-throat, which is why I'm now glad I'm out of it. It also can't be helping the top players who have been wrapped in cotton wool in such a way, when they are thrust onto the higher stage and are asked to come from behind.
I take your point about keeping the two competitions, One Day and Home and Away, on completely separate lines, and do not consider that this would impinge too much on that principle: Gandalf's idea of the 'balls back' so that the home players do not lose too much home advantage by giving all breaks away seemed an excellent compromise.
There you are, Dave, you asked for the reasons WHY I am taking kindly to the proposal, and I have given them. You are already aware though that I am very 'laodicean' regarding Interleague and haven't seconded anything yet. In spite of this I expect you will still indulge in a feast now on the bones of my argument ! ;D
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 11, 2012 12:46:26 GMT
Hi Clive, There you are, Dave, you asked for the reasons WHY I am taking kindly to the proposal, and I have given them. You are already aware though that I am very 'laodicean' regarding Interleague and haven't seconded anything yet. In spite of this I expect you will still indulge in a feast now on the bones of my argument ! ;D As you know, I always enjoy a healthy discussion and there are always two sides with good points to be made by both. ;D Perhaps you are right when you say.... You say that you are at a loss as to why anyone would ever think of suggesting such a thing.......Thinking back, I think it was purely to level the playing field: naming no names, certain high-profile players are being afforded the break every single time - away AND home, whereas others are lucky if they get the break at all. This 'cosy' arrangement, which really amounts to 'being seeded' could be seen as artificially enhancing their 'average', and easing their passage into the Sussex Masters through the ranking points system - with knock-on effects such as selection for county etc. .... however looking at the Division 1 Inter League averages for the last couple of years, five of the top ten players there in both seasons only had the break in five (or less) of the ten matches that were played, which perhaps indicates that the best players aren't always given the break in every game. ;D Maybe a few players do benefit from the current system at the expense of other players, but surely that would happen even if the system went to even breaks with certain players being given an "easier" match with his captain choosing which opponent he should play? ::) I do however agree with you entirely about this.... This is supposed to be a team game - team first and individuals second. .... but if a Team is unhappy about the choices made by their Captain, then surely they would appoint a new Captain? If an individual player is unhappy about it, then surely the player will move to a different team? :-/ I personally don't think that the answer is to change the Rules to try to solve a "problem" that perhaps only exists for a few players.... and I can simply see it meaning that more games are won (either way) on the first visit to the tables even though one of the players wouldn't have to do anything to get the break back..... but I fully respect that your opinion is different to mine and would happily play under the change of rules if it is proposed and agreed at the next AGM. 8-)
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Post by bigtj on Dec 11, 2012 19:27:52 GMT
I can see both sides to the arguement, but fron being a captains point of view I enjoy the challange of playing the team in an order thought out by me and especially at home pitting my wits against the away captain. I am probably guilty of using certain players with the break regularly but think I know my players stregnths and weaknesses.
To have to only put the names in a hat would take away some of the enjoyment for me, I agree with Dave that a normal even break game would hand the initiative back to the stronger player, and in this day and age we do not always get all the top players commited to inter league (for many reasons), in fact as can be seen this year even established sides are struggling to turn out their best possible side.
As drawn would I agree even the playing field in that it is down to luck of the draw who gets the break, but for those who play in leagues that have that format will no doubt notice that it does not always even itself out.
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