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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 6, 2012 21:22:34 GMT
Hi BB Fans everywhere
Question and Answer session Part 1 other parts to follow as time allows
Question 1 What will the bar billiards world be like in 10 years time? Don't have any stats to go on but in my area there has been a gradual continued decline in players, tables and venue numbers. Are there stats available somewhere to demonstrate whats been happening over the last few years?
Question 2 Is the above assertion true and is there the will in the Bar Billiards community to do some thing about it? Don't know, being a relative newcomer to the forum I'm not familiar with any BB think tank looking at this issue. please advise if such a committee is in place looking at ways to reverse the situation
Question3 what needs to be done? Decide on a strategy in cooperation with Players, leagues, AEBBA,landlords and Table suppliers that will lead to a substantial increase in the number of players venues and tables throughout the country that is reasonable, practical and achievable and financially viable.
question 4 Who will benefit in the long term? Landlords - more players more profits Table suppliers - more rented tables more profits Leagues - larger membership, more teams, increased opportunities of improvement, more interesting matches mean more fun.
Question 5 The big one...How do we achieve this...? a.We have to make bar billiards more accessible to new players b.Make the game more fun to play at all levels. c.Make all aspects of the game as fair as possible for all players at all levels.
Hope you find the above thought provoking and there is general agreement with the content above, will expand on question 5 in part 2 but please feel free to make comment yourselves
regs cs
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Post by Chris on Dec 6, 2012 22:05:09 GMT
Lovely words at the end, especially about accessibility.
We forget though about how many pubs are closing.
The game is played infrequently over a week and therefore not a Landlords priority.
I think other factors are totally involved here re a decline.
Chris
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 23:43:13 GMT
Gandalf, I suggest you visit the thread on this same Board called "Changing the World of Bar Billiards - Again!"
Here you will find the thoughts of a kindred spirit (the Chubbster) - all hand on heart stuff with the future of the game his sole concern.
So far he has received minimal response. Input from Stormin', Carl of Norwich - and me. And that's it. So who better to start a "think tank" than the two of you together ?
I think you'll find that a huge majority of players would react to a crisis when it happens (such as the loss of a table operator or loss of an Open) rather than be proactive in averting it. By this I mean most players are happy just to poodle along and enjoy what time we have left before the game eventually dies on its feet.
We were promised TV coverage this year and none was forthcoming.
In theory 2013 should be an exciting year for the game, with the First National Off-the-Spot Open, and the First East Anglian 4-Pin Open. However, interest in both these new events has not exactly been overwhelming. Where are the players willing to give 4-Pin a go ? Big up to Mark James, the only player of international stature willing to put his head above the parapet so far. I can see many others using "too close to Bournemouth" as an excuse. Shame on you all. What a great chance to find out about the other version of our game, and meet the people who play it.
Apathy reigns. I give it another ten years, fifteen at the most. :'(
tommo
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 6, 2012 23:59:49 GMT
In theory 2013 should be an exciting year for the game, with the First National Off-the-Spot Open, and the First East Anglian 4-Pin Open. However, interest in both these new events has not exactly been overwhelming. Where are the players willing to give 4-Pin a go ? Big up to Mark James, the only player of international stature willing to put his head above the parapet so far. I can see many others using "too close to Bournemouth" as an excuse. Shame on you all. What a great chance to find out about the other version of our game, and meet the people who play it. Apathy reigns. I give it another ten years, fifteen at the most. :'( Given the costs involved of playing at Bournemouth (although personally I think it is very good value for money) and the fact that Guernsey is only 6 weeks later, I think that you are being very unfair with what you have said here Tommo. >:( I would really like to enter the 4 pin competition as well as Bournemouth and Guernsey, but other commitments (children, work, dog) and finances have to be taken into consideration and given a choice I would prefer to enter the 2 competitions that I play in regularly rather than have to give up one of those to enter something else. ::) Given your strong views on this, I assume that you will be entering all three competitions next year yourself.... or will you be saying (like many other players) that the competitions are too close to each other so you will be going to Norwich rather than either Bournemouth or Guernsey? :o ;D With regards to the National Off the Spot.... and Norwich as well for that matter.... experience of other competitions should tell you that many players don't enter any of the Opens until the last month or two before the date as they don't plan that far ahead.... so there is plenty of time for overwhelming interest from the apathetic majority! :P >:(
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 7, 2012 0:12:51 GMT
On a more positive note.... some thought provoking questions asked by Gandalf which hopefully will lead to some new suggestions to come forward from members around the country. 8-)
I'm not quite sure where the table suppliers are going to come from though.... as far as I know the only remaining table supplier is Tarratt's in Sussex and they don't normally have a large supply of spare tables if we suddenly get a big expansion of players and venues. ::)
I know that there are a few groups of players that own a few tables between them and have them placed in pubs, but most of them will probably tell you that they only do that for the love of the game, not to make a profit. Perhaps that is how the game can continue, with enthusiasts who are prepared to own the tables and persuade local pubs to take them and the encourage new people to play the game? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 0:26:20 GMT
I would really like to enter the 4 pin competition as well as Bournemouth and Guernsey, but other commitments (children, work, dog) and finances have to be taken into consideration and given a choice I would prefer to enter the 2 competitions that I play in regularly rather than have to give up one of those to enter something else. ::) Not knocking you personally, Dave, I have never met anyone more interested in bar billiards ! With regards to the National Off the Spot.... and Norwich as well for that matter.... experience of other competitions should tell you that many players don't enter any of the Opens until the last month or two before the date as they don't plan that far ahead.... so there is plenty of time for overwhelming interest from the apathetic majority! :P >:( I hope you're right on that one, Dave. Given your strong views on this, I assume that you will be entering all three competitions next year yourself.... or will you be saying (like many other players) that the competitions are too close to each other so you will be going to Norwich rather than either Bournemouth or Guernsey? :o ;D One only of the three and that will be Norwich. I make no secret of the fact that I am cutting down drastically and getting ready to hang up my cue. Otherwise I will suffer 'cold turkey' and there'll be enough of that around in three weeks' time. ;D
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Post by NigelS on Dec 7, 2012 10:35:58 GMT
Just to let you know Tommo I will be entering the norwich open, it is early days yet and I know milko is considering it. As you say we got to be open to other forms of the game!
Sent from my GT-S5830 using ProBoards
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 10:57:36 GMT
Pleased to see that, Nigel.
4-pin presents a huge challenge to us dyed-in-the-wool "3-pinners" and the danger is that people could be turned off the idea of entering for fear of making fools of themselves.
Now that some big names are going up, hopefully more will follow. A lot of effort goes into a first-time organisation, and I hope Carl gets some reward for his efforts.
This could open up a whole new horizon for our game.
tommo
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 7, 2012 11:28:52 GMT
Not knocking you personally, Dave, I have never met anyone more interested in bar billiards ! Hmmmm.... okay, maybe not me personally, but the comment "shame on you all" seemed highly critical of ALL of the players that regularly support the established Open Competitions and AEBBA Events around the country every year, at considerable personal expense! ::) Surely every player has the right to decide which competitions they will choose to enter, without being criticised for not taking part in other competitions for whatever reason (financial, other commitments, etc) they may have personally, especially when by your own admission.... One only of the three and that will be Norwich. I make no secret of the fact that I am cutting down drastically and getting ready to hang up my cue. Otherwise I will suffer 'cold turkey' and there'll be enough of that around in three weeks' time. ;D .... you choose not to take part in two of the regular tournaments yourself, for your own personal reasons. :P I would certainly not question your right to do that.... or cast shame on you for choosing to take part in a new competition in preference to the others.... but the old expression involving a "pot" and a "kettle" do rather spring to mind here. ::) I hope that the new 4 pin competition is a great success and look forward to seeing the entries building up over the next couple of months.... but, with all respect to the organisers there, hopefully not at the expense of entries to either Bournemouth, Guernsey or any of the other existing competitions that are regularly held in the Spring each year. ::)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 11:42:59 GMT
Dave you must stop taking me so literally. Of course I have great admiration for everyone taking part in Opens... having been a regular participant myself since 2006 I fully appreciate the dedication involved.
Sometimes I say something deliberately controversial - a kick up the backside if you like - to try and gauge some sort of response as all too often it is only you and me on here contributing to the discussion. :-/
We do not have to always be in opposite corners - both of us have the game's interests at heart and one of us does not always have to try and take the moral high ground - which is what seems to happen. ::)
It does not worry me if I provoke an adverse reaction from the BB world. I would much rather this than be ignored completely. :-/
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 7, 2012 11:54:00 GMT
Dave you must stop taking me so literally. Of course I have great admiration for everyone taking part in Opens... having been a regular participant myself since 2006 I fully appreciate the dedication involved. Sometimes I say something deliberately controversial - a kick up the backside if you like - to try and gauge some sort of response as all too often it is only you and me on here contributing to the discussion. :-/ We do not have to always be in opposite corners - both of us have the game's interests at heart and one of us does not always have to try and take the moral high ground - which is what seems to happen. ::) It does not worry me if I provoke an adverse reaction from the BB world. I would much rather this than be ignored completely. :-/ Okay Clive, fair comment and I know that you have the best interests of the game at heart..... however, as I have often found here myself, if you do decide to say something "deliberately controversial" you often receive that kick up the backside in return! ::) 8-) ;D I will climb down off my soapbox now. ;D
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Post by milko on Dec 7, 2012 12:20:41 GMT
Nigel is correct in mentioning my interest in the "4-pin Open" and just to add that if everything is Hunky-dory at the time then I will be taking part. (haven't been to church for ages ;D)
Keith (I wonder what the World Record score/break is for 4-pin ?)
....and perhaps this post should be moved to the correct topic but I suppose I could copy it on to ten different threads! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;D ::) :P
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 7, 2012 12:29:17 GMT
....and perhaps this post should be moved to the correct topic but I suppose I could copy it on to ten different threads! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;D ::) :P No, you would have to move to Sussex to do that Keith.... ::) ;D ;D ;D
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 7, 2012 20:06:11 GMT
Pleased to see that, Nigel. 4-pin presents a huge challenge to us dyed-in-the-wool "3-pinners" and the danger is that people could be turned off the idea of entering for fear of making fools of themselves. Now that some big names are going up, hopefully more will follow. A lot of effort goes into a first-time organisation, and I hope Carl gets some reward for his efforts. This could open up a whole new horizon for our game. tommo i like a challenge, and an interesting one to boot, sure lots are warming to the idea down south :o
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 7, 2012 20:29:06 GMT
Gandalf, I suggest you visit the thread on this same Board called "Changing the World of Bar Billiards - Again!" Here you will find the thoughts of a kindred spirit (the Chubbster) - all hand on heart stuff with the future of the game his sole concern. So far he has received minimal response. Input from Stormin', Carl of Norwich - and me. And that's it. So who better to start a "think tank" than the two of you together ? I think you'll find that a huge majority of players would react to a crisis when it happens (such as the loss of a table operator or loss of an Open) rather than be proactive in averting it. By this I mean most players are happy just to poodle along and enjoy what time we have left before the game eventually dies on its feet. We were promised TV coverage this year and none was forthcoming. In theory 2013 should be an exciting year for the game, with the First National Off-the-Spot Open, and the First East Anglian 4-Pin Open. However, interest in both these new events has not exactly been overwhelming. Where are the players willing to give 4-Pin a go ? Big up to Mark James, the only player of international stature willing to put his head above the parapet so far. I can see many others using "too close to Bournemouth" as an excuse. Shame on you all. What a great chance to find out about the other version of our game, and meet the people who play it. Apathy reigns. I give it another ten years, fifteen at the most. :'( tommo I can see the years taking its toll on you tommo, but being one of the FOOLS, I'd like to think that some of us BB fans can stand up to the plate and be counted and deal with this Major issue before it's too late. If we stand back in apathy we will only have ourselves to blame, We have by no way reached the point of no return yet but its going to need time and radical thinking to relaunch this game onto the unsuspecting world. Dealing with it in 10 years time is not the way to guarantee bar billiards a future. regs cs
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 20:57:29 GMT
I admire your optimism, Gandalf, but history and statistics all point in the wrong direction.
Venues are being lost at a tragic rate, and leagues are shrinking. Even the longest-established ones. Some struggle on with just four teams, why you were even talking just now of Eastbourne going out of existence. Hastings seem to have turned the corner, but Maidstone in Kent is reputed to be in trouble.
Some of the counties formerly with multiple leagues (Hants, Berks, Bucks) have seen the game driven into a small enclave in one extremity of the county.
The only exception I can see to this is Norwich which has popped out of nowhere in the last few years and should be encouraged.
Both yourself and Glenn seem to be saying we should 'get the message out there to the rest of the country'. I agree too. Much work has been done by the few to identify possible future sources of interest (check the AEBBA map, there are more black pegs (non-league) than white pegs (league venues).) So let's do it - somehow.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 8, 2012 20:29:14 GMT
I admire your optimism, Gandalf, but history and statistics all point in the wrong direction. Both yourself and Glenn seem to be saying we should 'get the message out there to the rest of the country'. I agree too. Much work has been done by the few to identify possible future sources of interest (check the AEBBA map, there are more black pegs (non-league) than white pegs (league venues).) So let's do it - somehow. Hi Tommo, glad to see your last comment, we need someone to take the bull by the horns and start along the yellow brick road and prepare a strategy to move forward, i suggest a sub committee of the AEBBA, but they will need real data to act on, which i believe is as yet, unavailable. I recommend that we all think about this over the coming months so that next AEBBA AGM we can form such a committee. In the interim affiliated leagues should start recording data so that they can make year on year comparisons ( presume such info is not currently available). Then the committee would be in a position to make informed recommendations. AEBBA could instruct all affiliated County groups to record and pass on registered players names, gender, DOB's this will mean that counties will need to gather the same info from it's affiliated leagues as well. If this is the way AEBBA want to go, then i will be happy to lead the way in my area subject to SCBBA approvals regs cs
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 8, 2012 21:00:01 GMT
Hi future BB fans
Question And Answer part2 Question 5 The big one...How do we achieve this...? a.We have to make bar billiards more accessible to new players b.Make the game more fun to play at all levels. c.Make all aspects of the game as fair as possible for all players at all levels.
A. 100% key issue, Lets start by luring more players into the game , once we gradually increase the number of players year on year everything in the garden becomes rosy. we need to deal with b & c concurrently, but how can we start?
People need to see the game being played and want to have a go at it, so for all those pubs that own their own table why not make it a free table on the busiest night of the week (therefore not league night) and get people playing, for those tables that are hired things are a bit more tricky as some sort of Saturday night discount or 1/7th weekly discount will need to be negotiated. Those that have their own tables could place them in pubs for a year and see what happens. We need to ensure that when new teams come into the league format that players never feel that there is an unfair element of the game that could dissuade newcomers from continuing. as tommo mentioned elsewhere there are more non league venues than league, do we have in place plans to invite all non league venues into the mainstream. Wonder if there is another Hastings out there waiting to be rediscovered. What about some of the high fliers offering to set up a team in non league venues, a fast track way of starting new teams and also give top quality training to new comers/teams.
regs cs
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 22:14:05 GMT
- People need to see the game being played and want to have a go at it, so for all those pubs that own their own table why not make it a free table on the busiest night of the week (therefore not league night) and get people playing, for those tables that are hired things are a bit more tricky as some sort of Saturday night discount or 1/7th weekly discount will need to be negotiated.
- Those that have their own tables could place them in pubs for a year and see what happens. We need to ensure that when new teams come into the league format that players never feel that there is an unfair element of the game that could dissuade newcomers from continuing.
- as tommo mentioned elsewhere there are more non league venues than league, do we have in place plans to invite all non league venues into the mainstream. Wonder if there is another Hastings out there waiting to be rediscovered.
- What about some of the high fliers offering to set up a team in non league venues, a fast track way of starting new teams and also give top quality training to new comers/teams.
regs cs With respect, your answer seems too simplistic to work. Offering a free night may work as a one-off instance if publicised with a poster but the novelty would soon wear off. If you got a crowd, people would get bored waiting for their turn, and if the opposite applied and two people only turned up their interest would soon wane after, say, three games of knocking balls about and pegs over. I would say that a fair proportion (50% ?) of new players taking up the game are sons and daughters of existing players. Not knocking that, but it indicates what a family community the game has developed into being. I'm not sure that your other suggestions would survive long in flight either. So what do I think is a possible way forward ? Well, we've got the AEBBA map, we know where all these extra non-leave tables are supposed to be. I think we should identify possible hotspots where there are enough tables congregated close together to form a league of sorts. Eg Bicester, St Albans, Exeter, Sheffield (expand the AEBBA map and they become apparent.) Then get AEBBA's new working party to send out a poster advertising a local singles competition with trophies for the semifinalists and maybe a tempting cash prize for the winner. That way they could become involved on here - without the hassle of having to form and administer a league for teams, although if it became a success that could follow as a matter of course. I hope we get others joining in with this by the way - otherwise it's just you and me smoking our pipes and blowing smoke rings ! :D Rgds, tommo
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 8, 2012 22:29:16 GMT
AEBBA could instruct all affiliated County groups to record and pass on registered players names, gender, DOB's this will mean that counties will need to gather the same info from it's affiliated leagues as well. If this is the way AEBBA want to go, then i will be happy to lead the way in my area subject to SCBBA approvals I can think of a lot of issues that you (and AEBBA) would end up having with the Data Protection Act over this suggestion Gandalf.... :o If you want to find information about how many players are involved with the game, a lot of Leagues have their own websites, some of which have records going back over a reasonable period of time which should give you a starting place for the numbers of players that are still playing and those who are no longer involved in the game.... ::) But, as somebody who runs a company that is regulated by both the Information Commissioners Office and the Financial Services Authority I would strongly advise that the law states that personal details of individuals MUST NOT BE PASSED ON TO ANY THIRD PARTY without their specific consent and legal action could be taken against any individual or organisation that does not adhere to this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 22:43:15 GMT
Warrior is absolutely right on this point.
The only practical use I can see for Gandalf's idea (in a watered-down guise of course) would be if someone was trying to set up a national database, to extend the 400-odd names on the AEBBA Rankings list right down to League level.
It could happen in a couple of years with the input of someone with sufficient dedication.
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 8, 2012 23:08:58 GMT
Some merit in some of these suggestions, although as Tommo said.... most of them are far too simplistic, however sometimes the best ideas are the simple ones. ;D Here are my views on this.... People need to see the game being played and want to have a go at it, so for all those pubs that own their own table why not make it a free table on the busiest night of the week (therefore not league night) and get people playing, for those tables that are hired things are a bit more tricky as some sort of Saturday night discount or 1/7th weekly discount will need to be negotiated. I agree that people will only be encouraged to play if they see tables and watch other people playing it. I'm not sure that many landlords will want to lose income by giving it away free, unless they are getting more customers in the pub to buy more drinks.... so perhaps it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. :-/ However, I do know that one pub in Brighton (The West Hill) do have a night where Bar Billiards is free.... and the end result of that has been a new team entering the Brighton League this year made up entirely of people who haven't played competitively before.... so clearly something encouraged that at this venue! 8-) Those that have their own tables could place them in pubs for a year and see what happens. We need to ensure that when new teams come into the league format that players never feel that there is an unfair element of the game that could dissuade newcomers from continuing. I know of several players (individuals and, more often, small collectives) who own one or more tables that are either in pubs, often where they play from themselves, or are in storage. I don't know of any of them who do this to try to make any money from the game, mostly the best that they hope for is to get enough money to pay for re-clothing or to repair any damage. ::) I think that the "problem" is more getting new venues to take on a table, rather than trying to persuade the table owners to put them in a pub. :'( as tommo mentioned elsewhere there are more non league venues than league, do we have in place plans to invite all non league venues into the mainstream. Wonder if there is another Hastings out there waiting to be rediscovered. Yes, there have been a number of pubs that have had tables installed and would have been happy to have a team based there, however a few months later we then read that the table has been removed because it wasn't being used enough. Sometimes this was due to the positioning of the table (insufficient room) or location of the pub (no parking) but most often it was because the teams are happy at their existing venues. To get an entirely new team to start at a new venue is rare, although there is the case of the team in Brighton and there seems to be the chance of this happening in Horsham League based on what I have read on the Forum. :D What about some of the high fliers offering to set up a team in non league venues, a fast track way of starting new teams and also give top quality training to new comers/teams. This is something that I know does work, Gina Sherratt (always in our thoughts) was someone who introduced a lot of people to the game, including some good players such as the Forum Founder Glenn Chubb and was also captain of Chris Reeves's first team.... Chris was playing for England a few years later! :o ;D There is a question that I must ask here..... are these ideas that have already being tried in Eastbourne League? I remember feeling a couple of weeks ago when I read the following post.... Hi Eastbourne BB fans Looking at options for next year and beyond with the numbers likely to be falling to unsustainable levels soon, as mentioned previously, we are looking at the feasability of converting to a singles league. I can't help but feel that the best place to start is on a LOCAL level rather than trying to change the nature of the game nationally.... and at least then you would be able to come up with suggestions that have proven to be successful for other League to consider for the future. ;)
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Dec 8, 2012 23:09:58 GMT
Warrior is absolutely right on this point. The only practical use I can see for Gandalf's idea (in a watered-down guise of course) would be if someone was trying to set up a national database, to extend the 400-odd names on the AEBBA Rankings list right down to League level. It could happen in a couple of years with the input of someone with sufficient dedication. Just think it would be useful for someone to know who where and how old for as many people as possible and not just making guesses and assumptions as we seem to be doing here :-* someone still needs to collate trands at the end of each year, i'll have a go over xmas in between thr family rows and see what info i can glean from various web sites as suggested. :D regs cs
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 8, 2012 23:22:31 GMT
I would say that a fair proportion (50% ?) of new players taking up the game are sons and daughters of existing players. Not knocking that, but it indicates what a family community the game has developed into being. I would certainly agree that a lot of the younger players seem to be the sons or daughters of existing players.... but it is nice to see that some of them are introducing their friends to the game and there are now at least a couple of teams that I can think of that are mainly made up of younger players. 8-) Shouldn't it be the younger players that we try to encourage to bring in more of their friends to the game.... maybe the local Leagues could talk to venues with tables (League or Non-League) and offer to sponsor a monthly competition for Under 25's at the pubs? A couple of posters, maybe a small trophy or £20 prize money or something similar to create some interest then get a couple of good players along to give a bit of coaching for people who were interested in learning more about the game? :D
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 9, 2012 11:05:53 GMT
Just think it would be useful for someone to know who where and how old for as many people as possible and not just making guesses and assumptions as we seem to be doing here :-* someone still needs to collate trands at the end of each year, i'll have a go over xmas in between thr family rows and see what info i can glean from various web sites as suggested. :D regs cs All joking aside, I would seriously recommend that you avoid trying to collate "personal information" for individual players unless you are prepared to try to get the consent from all of them before you start this project which simply won't be possible. ::) I am aware of a situation in one Bar Billiards League where a player has refused to allow his name to appear on their League website and then reported the matter to Data Protection when his information was shown.... clearly a case of our crazy "PC" world.... he is now shown on their website under a different name! :o :-X If you want to look at "trends" over a period of time, probably the best way to start would be by using the information that Tommo has put up on a different thread entitled "how many players do you reckon in the UK".... Just as a matter of interest, how many active league bar billiards players do you reckon there are in the UK ? I thought I’d have a go at compiling some figures, and as details are sketchy – particularly in places like Berks and Bucks – please feel free to correct and/or adjust if your data is more reliable than mine ! First figure is number of member teams in League, figure in brackets is estimated number of players. List includes non-affiliated as well as affiliated leagues and counties. BerksReading 11 (75) BucksHigh Wycombe 8 (?) CambsCambridge 8 (49)HantsPortsmouth 11 (74) KentDover and Deal 11 (61) Maidstone 4 (24) Medway 10 (55) Tunbridge Wells 6 (36) NorfolkNorwich 4-pin 5 (?) NorthantsNorthampton 10 (50) Wellingborough 4-pin 8 (?) OxonEynsham 8 (36)Oxford 14 (111) Wallingford 10 (100) Witney 8 (55)SuffolkSudbury 4-pin 13 (?) SurreyRedhill 17 (121)SussexBillingshurst 13 (89) Brighton 13 (99)Eastbourne 5 (25)Hastings and Bexhill 9 (55) Horsham 13 (90) Lewes 8 (59)Littlehampton 10 (55) Mid Sussex 16 (137) West Sussex 11 (68)Worthing 17 (118) Notes: some surprises, but here again, the information is open to challenge: 243+ teams in the UK. 1500+ active players 44% of the above are from Sussex. Redhill is was the biggest league with 19 teams Wallingford just behind on 18 teams. Worthing with 170 has had the most registered members of any league (now Mid Sussex with 137)Remainder of British Isles: Guernsey 7 (45) Jersey 12 (108) Two final stats, relevant to 2011......... Wallingford has dropped in numbers from 18 to 10 teams in just two years. :o East Anglia (4-Pin) has the biggest growth in the same period, up to 18 teams from 11. Sudbury have gained three teams, and Norwich (new to this century) has a waiting list of pubs requiring tables. 8-) The above are the latest figures for this year and you can then perhaps try to find out the information for either 5 or 10 years ago and see how the numbers compare? To give you a bit of a start, here are the numbers that are available for the Leagues that I play in regularly..... ;D Lewes League 2012/13 Season - 8 Teams, 55 players (excludes reserves who have not yet played this season) 2007/08 Season - 9 Teams, 67 players 2002/03 Season - 8 Teams, 66 players Brighton League 2012/13 Season - 13 Teams (2012/13), 101 players (2011/12 Season, information for current year not available yet) 2007/08 Season - 15 Teams, 106 players 2002/03 Season - 17 Teams, 119 players Worthing League 2012/13 Season - 15 Teams, 97 players No information available at present about previous seasons. Obviously, what this information does not show is the players that play in more than one League.... which is certainly very prevalent in Sussex. For example, looking down the list of players in Lewes League I could only see 2 or 3 players (out of the 55 that have played this season) who do not play regularly in another League on at least one other night of the week! :o :o But I think perhaps that is more common in Sussex than in other areas, simply because we have so many different Leagues within our area. 8-) I hope that this gives you a starting point anyway.... :-/
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2012 18:28:48 GMT
What about some of the high fliers offering to set up a team in non league venues, a fast track way of starting new teams and also give top quality training to new comers/teams. regs cs This is something that I know does work, Gina Sherratt (always in our thoughts) was someone who introduced a lot of people to the game, including some good players such as the Forum Founder Glenn Chubb and was also captain of Chris Reeves's first team.... Chris was playing for England a few years later! :o ;D It is refreshing when you find someone willing to give up their time to help to train - or pass on a few useful tips to - others. Redhill run a sort of academy where interested ladies can turn up on a series of nights to receive tips from the top county players. Debz is the latest find resultant from this, Genette has also been put through the paces. Kindhearts do exist in Sussex also, Chunks was trained up by Sir KT and is now so good that he has a 20k-club teeshirt. On a lesser scale, Margo was struggling with her game and plays with more confidence since Jean spent a couple of hours with her in the Albion one night. I would like to have been a fly on the wall when Milko was training his son Steven in his own image! Yes these facilities exist, but maybe need to be more prevalent if present high standards are to be maintained.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 2, 2013 22:08:42 GMT
Just think it would be useful for someone to know who where and how old for as many people as possible and not just making guesses and assumptions as we seem to be doing here :-* someone still needs to collate trands at the end of each year, i'll have a go over xmas in between thr family rows and see what info i can glean from various web sites as suggested. :D regs cs All joking aside, I would seriously recommend that you avoid trying to collate "personal information" for individual players unless you are prepared to try to get the consent from all of them before you start this project which simply won't be possible. ::) I am aware of a situation in one Bar Billiards League where a player has refused to allow his name to appear on their League website and then reported the matter to Data Protection when his information was shown.... clearly a case of our crazy "PC" world.... he is now shown on their website under a different name! :o :-X If you want to look at "trends" over a period of time, probably the best way to start would be by using the information that Tommo has put up on a different thread entitled "how many players do you reckon in the UK".... Just as a matter of interest, how many active league bar billiards players do you reckon there are in the UK ? I thought I’d have a go at compiling some figures, and as details are sketchy – particularly in places like Berks and Bucks – please feel free to correct and/or adjust if your data is more reliable than mine ! First figure is number of member teams in League, figure in brackets is estimated number of players. List includes non-affiliated as well as affiliated leagues and counties. BerksReading 11 (75) BucksHigh Wycombe 8 (?) CambsCambridge 8 (49)HantsPortsmouth 11 (74) KentDover and Deal 11 (61) Maidstone 4 (24) Medway 10 (55) Tunbridge Wells 6 (36) NorfolkNorwich 4-pin 5 (?) NorthantsNorthampton 10 (50) Wellingborough 4-pin 8 (?) OxonEynsham 8 (36)Oxford 14 (111) Wallingford 10 (100) Witney 8 (55)SuffolkSudbury 4-pin 13 (?) SurreyRedhill 17 (121)SussexBillingshurst 13 (89) Brighton 13 (99)Eastbourne 5 (25)Hastings and Bexhill 9 (55) Horsham 13 (90) Lewes 8 (59)Littlehampton 10 (55) Mid Sussex 16 (137) West Sussex 11 (68)Worthing 17 (118) Notes: some surprises, but here again, the information is open to challenge: 243+ teams in the UK. 1500+ active players 44% of the above are from Sussex. Redhill is was the biggest league with 19 teams Wallingford just behind on 18 teams. Worthing with 170 has had the most registered members of any league (now Mid Sussex with 137)Remainder of British Isles: Guernsey 7 (45) Jersey 12 (108) Two final stats, relevant to 2011......... Wallingford has dropped in numbers from 18 to 10 teams in just two years. :o East Anglia (4-Pin) has the biggest growth in the same period, up to 18 teams from 11. Sudbury have gained three teams, and Norwich (new to this century) has a waiting list of pubs requiring tables. 8-) The above are the latest figures for this year and you can then perhaps try to find out the information for either 5 or 10 years ago and see how the numbers compare? To give you a bit of a start, here are the numbers that are available for the Leagues that I play in regularly..... ;D Lewes League 2012/13 Season - 8 Teams, 55 players (excludes reserves who have not yet played this season) 2007/08 Season - 9 Teams, 67 players 2002/03 Season - 8 Teams, 66 players Brighton League 2012/13 Season - 13 Teams (2012/13), 101 players (2011/12 Season, information for current year not available yet) 2007/08 Season - 15 Teams, 106 players 2002/03 Season - 17 Teams, 119 players Worthing League 2012/13 Season - 15 Teams, 97 players No information available at present about previous seasons. Obviously, what this information does not show is the players that play in more than one League.... which is certainly very prevalent in Sussex. For example, looking down the list of players in Lewes League I could only see 2 or 3 players (out of the 55 that have played this season) who do not play regularly in another League on at least one other night of the week! :o :o But I think perhaps that is more common in Sussex than in other areas, simply because we have so many different Leagues within our area. 8-) I hope that this gives you a starting point anyway.... :-/ Thanks warrior, most useful, now that we are on the same page, i have asked a few leagues to forward info for the last 10 seasons and will be asking others to do the same to include total teams, total players and also the number of players that have only played once in a season i hope that shortly i will be able to compile a history graph comparison for most leagues, but those that are not listed please feel free to forward to me their stats for inclusion on future posts. I hope that this is not being duplicated by others elsewhere but let me know if i need to coordinate with others best regards to all cs
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Jan 7, 2013 14:09:57 GMT
I’m really very reluctant to add to this excellent discussion for a couple of reasons. Firstly what I’m about to say are things I’ve been saying for a very long time. And secondly, it’s precisely these things that make me a “dreamer”, “unrealistic” and “aiming to high”. I will however add my two pence worth in line with the them of the original post… the future of our game.
As to where the game will be in 10 years time. Well, as things currently stand I don’t think it will be too bad. I say this because we as a community (as I believe Tommo very accurately stated previously) are extremely good and reacting to a crisis, yet nowhere near as good as being pro-active. Because of that I envision the forum will still be strong, and game will have shrunken a little, but overall that “core” group will still be there to let the game survive.
However to me the above would be such a shame, and I’ll explain why.
Without going over all the points of made in recent discussions (I would refer you to my very long post in this forum down the page a little) I still believe we are yet to properly harness a true power of the internet, and more specifically the “mobile data” explosion currently occurring right in front of us.
I know there are some people who are not and never will be online, but short of mailing lists through the post I’m not sure how we get that every increasing minority of people into our game. But the future players will be (mainly) young players, and can you tell me a young person without a smart phone these days, a young person who doesn’t use YouTube?
This forum is a fantastic, wonderful, epic and incredible tool for us, the established players and enthusiasts. But it has limited use when it comes to attracting new players to our game, and that after all is the silver bullet with regards to this discussion. I would propose the following be implemented by some brave souls somewhere along the line.
A Bar Billiards YouTube Channel A Bar Billiards Mobile/Tablet Application A National Pub knockout championship (Like the old News of The World In Darts)
The Youtube Channel, that’s hard work but very doable, I can think of no better way than you show people out in the world our game. It just needs a little thought and will.
As for the App, well that could be either easier or harder, but just think of the rewards! We could gather, compile and even push all information from various Bar Billiards sources to everyone who has a smartphone. Would you like me to look into it?
As for the 3rd, I have long been a fan of the idea of a knockout tournament starting a pub level, moving to regional level and then national level. I can assure you it would bring a great sponsor along with it (most likely a brewery) and just like the NotW made darts a household sport, so it could go a long way to helping us out..
Hope I’ve added to the discussion in a positive way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2013 15:22:07 GMT
I would propose the following be implemented by some brave souls somewhere along the line. A Bar Billiards YouTube Channel A Bar Billiards Mobile/Tablet Application A National Pub knockout championship (Like the old News of The World In Darts) The Youtube Channel, that’s hard work but very doable, I can think of no better way than you show people out in the world our game. It just needs a little thought and will. As for the App, well that could be either easier or harder, but just think of the rewards! We could gather, compile and even push all information from various Bar Billiards sources to everyone who has a smartphone. Would you like me to look into it? As for the 3rd, I have long been a fan of the idea of a knockout tournament starting a pub level, moving to regional level and then national level. I can assure you it would bring a great sponsor along with it (most likely a brewery) and just like the NotW made darts a household sport, so it could go a long way to helping us out.. Hope I’ve added to the discussion in a positive way. Glenn, your three proposals now suddenly seem very practical and have provided us with a starting point. I will leave younger people to comment on the first two, but I am very supportive of a nationwide competition reaching right down to grass roots level (ie pubs with just a table but not involved in any league). If this can somehow embrace the 4-Pin minority group - all the better. Now regarding my earlier post thus: So what do I think is a possible way forward ? Well, we've got the AEBBA map, we know where all these extra non-leave tables are supposed to be. I think we should identify possible hotspots where there are enough tables congregated close together to form a league of sorts. Eg Bicester, Banbury, St Albans, Exeter, Sheffield (expand the AEBBA map and they become apparent.) Then get AEBBA's new working party to send out a poster advertising a local singles competition with trophies for the semifinalists and maybe a tempting cash prize for the winner. That way they could become involved on here - without the hassle of having to form and administer a league for teams, although if it became a success that could follow as a matter of course. .......further analysis has identified these further 'hotspots': Essex (11 tables) Ipswich (10 tables) Wiltshire (10 tables) Bristol/Avon (10 tables) N & E Yorkshire (9 tables) Hertfordshire (8 tables) Somerset (8 tables) Southampton area (7 tables) Gloucestershire (7 tables) the city of Cambridge (7 tables) Staffordshire (7 tables) Peterborough & the Isle of Ely (6 tables) Coventry district (6 tables) S & W Yorkshire (6 tables) By studying the AEBBA Map it would possible to identify a potential focal point for each of these areas. Then it's a question of finding a generous sponsor and designing and sending out a colourful poster, incorporating a blank draw for, say, 16 players - which can be filled in with scores for the winner to claim the prize money, to be handed out when the Grand Finals Night is staged.
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Jan 7, 2013 16:17:56 GMT
Here is a recent poster I made for a local amatuer dramtic group in the area, my first paid graphics editing work. I would be more than willing to donate my services with regards to a poster for anything that's being discussd in this thread, or indeed any Bar Billiards poster/graphics work at large. Attachments:
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