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Post by BB Warrior on Jan 8, 2013 9:53:33 GMT
Some interesting thoughts and ideas Glenn.... 8-) I would propose the following be implemented by some brave souls somewhere along the line. A Bar Billiards YouTube Channel The Youtube Channel, that’s hard work but very doable, I can think of no better way than you show people out in the world our game. It just needs a little thought and will. As a self-confessed Technophobe, I will be the first to admit that I know very little about YouTube, although I do occasionally watch clips on there when I get a link to that website. ;D Most of the clips that I have seen tend to be pretty short (about a couple of minutes) so I'm not sure how much interest there would be in watching somebody play out a 17 minute game of bar billiards.... :-/ A Bar Billiards Mobile/Tablet Application As for the App, well that could be either easier or harder, but just think of the rewards! We could gather, compile and even push all information from various Bar Billiards sources to everyone who has a smartphone. Would you like me to look into it? Isn't there already a mobile app for the Forum.... ??? I was sure that I heard Nigel and Gareth discussing how to use it at a match the other night.... ::) A National Pub knockout championship (Like the old News of The World In Darts) As for the 3rd, I have long been a fan of the idea of a knockout tournament starting a pub level, moving to regional level and then national level. I can assure you it would bring a great sponsor along with it (most likely a brewery) and just like the NotW made darts a household sport, so it could go a long way to helping us out.. I would love to see this happen, but I'm not sure that it ever will for the following reasons.... 1) The amount of time that it would take to play a knock-out at each venue would probably mean it would have to be played at a weekend.... busiest time of the week for most pubs. 2) The costs and organisation (venue, table hire, finding a suitable date) for holding "regional finals" to decide who goes forward to the national finals. 3) Finding a sponsor.... think you would need TV coverage of the national finals (at least) before you would find someone high profile enough to interest the TV companies to cover it. Pretty much a chicken and egg situation there I think.... ::) I was interested to see that you believe that the News of the World Tournament made darts a "household name" and wonder how much you actually know about the competition....? The NotW Darts tournament originated in the 1920's and was originally a local tournament in London that was sponsored by a brewery, the News of the World were only actually involved as some of their staff were among the organisers! :o About 1,000 people took part in the first competition, but that quickly grew as pubicity through the paper meant that more people got to hear about it and there were 6 regional events established over the next few years with people qualifying to play in the national finals in London. By 1938/39 the event had grown to more than 280,000 entrants and more than 14,000 people watched the final being played! :o :o The competition re-started after World War 2 but it wasn't until 1970 that it received television coverage.... which is perhaps what you mean by making it a household name.... and that continued until about 1990 when falling rating meant that the TV Companies weren't interested any more, they only wanted to cover the World Professional Championships at that time as that was the only thing with a sufficiently high profile for the ratings. :'( Darts was fortunate to get the backing of the NotW in the early days thanks to some of their staff being involved with arranging the first competition, which gave the tournament a lot of publicity in the early days.... but it still took more than 40 years to get television coverage for the event! ::) The TV Companies got involved at a time when Darts was played in virtually every pub in the country and at the same time that Bar Billiards was (probably) at its peak as well.... we all know that the number of people playing Bar Billiards has dropped during the last 20-30 years, the same has happened with darts in this time for similar reasons.... loss of venues and players. :'( Please forgive the (Darts) history lesson here, I happen to know a lot about the NotW Tournament as I was at one stage very involved with both playing in and running the competition at both regional and national levels for a number of years. ;D Yes, darts obviously has a much higher profile than Bar Billiards and, sadly, will always have more appeal than Bar Billiards as far as younger players are concerned.... partly because there is more money involved at competition level but mainly because the games are quick, the rules are easy and both players are involved in the game all of the time, they are not just standing around waiting for their turn! ::) I'm sorry to be so negative about this.... and I really hate saying this.... but Bar Billiards as we play it at the moment simply isn't "sexy enough" to appeal to get a big sponsorship deal and television coverage as people (especially younger ones) want to watch and play a game that is quick and exciting in which both / all players are involved with all of the time.... ::) :'( For this reason, I don't see this ever happening.... although I would love to be proved wrong!! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Jan 8, 2013 10:49:55 GMT
Hello again, couple of interesting points by Dave I would like to cover in a little more depth.
You’re history about the news of the world champions was very interesting, but in a way kind of proves my point about how good it was for the game. It started with a mere 1000 entrants, yet over time swelled to over a quarter of a million! I saw on a Bar Billiards website once the quote “From this tiny acorn a mighty oak will grow”, does that not best describe exactly the kind of thing that were are talking about here? Lets say 100 people entered the first event, it’s very existence would surely over time help raise the profile of the game and get people on a local level noticing, talking and thinking about the game.
With regards to sponsorship and TV coverage, I’m with you on the TV coverage as I too don’t think Bar Billiards would make as good a spectacle as darts. But bear in mind when you get down to the brass and tacks, Darts is a pretty samey sport. The majority of it is people throwing an arrow at the treble 20, when you think about it how interesting is that really? Is Bar Billiards really “that” lame in comparison?
But sponsorship, that’s a very different story. We get limited sponsorship revenue because sponsors want exposure that in our game we just can’t give them. I have seen many, many discussions on this forum about how to get more sponsors, but not at any point has anyone actually addressed the problem as to why we get none. The answer then surely lies in creating an event or a circumstance that will give them exposure, and I believe a National pub Championship would do that as not only would it be played and advertised in many pubs throughout the country, the scale of such a tournament would surely get “some” press coverage, even locally. It just seems that at the moment we spend the majority of our time trying to fix a problem without first addressing what the problem is and finding a solution.
And what’s more, I have a plan how this tournament can be run. Firstly you would “invite” member counties to partake in the competition, and if they agree then we give them a set of guidelines as to how to organise the tournaments, but each pub that participates would be responsible for organising there own in-house championship. Once that round is out the way, we could use the entrance fees collected locally to fund the regional finals and hopefully persuade the member counties to help organise them as and when they see fit (maybe tag it onto there own county championship or something like that) and then for the grand finals….. Well why not Friday night at the Bournemouth weekend? The venue is already there, it would solve some existing issues with the Bournemouth weekend also.
Couple of other things quickly. Yes ProBoards has an app, but I’m talking about a dedicated Bar Billiards app that doesn’t use the forum, but collates Bar Billiards issues from many sources and compiles them in an easy to view/read way. This could be done and maintained for less than £200. (www.appmakr.com is just one example, there are many others)
Regarding YouTube, I’m going to start a separate thread on that issue in this forum, so look out for it.
So I would be interested to know what you guys think? Sorry if I’ve gone off topic a little.
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Post by BB Warrior on Jan 8, 2013 12:05:11 GMT
Sorry Glenn, "Mr Negative" is still here.... ::) You’re history about the news of the world champions was very interesting, but in a way kind of proves my point about how good it was for the game. It started with a mere 1000 entrants, yet over time swelled to over a quarter of a million! Yes, without doubt it did a lot to promote the game of darts.... but, remember that was 70-80 years ago!! :o I think that you have to consider that in those days there was no television and electronic games at home, the pubs didn't have supermarkets selling cheap booze to drink at home and it was very "normal" for people to go down to their local, have a couple of pints and play a few games of darts as their main source of entertainment during an evening. I think that is fair to say that times have changed since then - a lot! ;D Would an idea that worked then still be effective..... I think the simple answer to that is that if it was, then darts would still be using it for themselves! :P With regards to sponsorship.... But sponsorship, that’s a very different story. We get limited sponsorship revenue because sponsors want exposure that in our game we just can’t give them. I have seen many, many discussions on this forum about how to get more sponsors, but not at any point has anyone actually addressed the problem as to why we get none. The answer then surely lies in creating an event or a circumstance that will give them exposure, and I believe a National pub Championship would do that as not only would it be played and advertised in many pubs throughout the country, the scale of such a tournament would surely get “some” press coverage, even locally. It just seems that at the moment we spend the majority of our time trying to fix a problem without first addressing what the problem is and finding a solution. Agree entirely that sponsors want as much exposure as possible to make their "investment" worthwhile.... would having flyers (some of which might never see the light of day) about a competition in a couple of hundred pubs be considered good exposure? Any good sponsor would want press coverage, both local and (preferably) national. How many Opens get covered in the press at the moment.... what could we show a potential sponsor about how WE promote the game at the present?? Surely, the best way to start would be to get some good coverage of some of the existing competitions.... at least then we can go to a sponsor and they will see that the game is already getting some exposure which might encourage them to spend some money.... ;) I am puzzled by this though.... And what’s more, I have a plan how this tournament can be run. Firstly you would “invite” member counties to partake in the competition, and if they agree then we give them a set of guidelines as to how to organise the tournaments, but each pub that participates would be responsible for organising there own in-house championship. Once that round is out the way, we could use the entrance fees collected locally to fund the regional finals and hopefully persuade the member counties to help organise them as and when they see fit (maybe tag it onto there own county championship or something like that) and then for the grand finals….. Well why not Friday night at the Bournemouth weekend? The venue is already there, it would solve some existing issues with the Bournemouth weekend also. .... please forgive me if I have either misread something or I am being extremely stupid here.... but it looks as if your "plan" is to effectively "self-sponsor" the regional events using the entry money from the pub competitions.... :-/ .... so I am confused as to where the "outside sponsorship" comes into this and how you will pay for prize money, trophies and everything else from what is likely to be very little money? ??? ::)
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Jan 8, 2013 16:55:55 GMT
Ok I’ll try and cover this last point a little, but it would obviously require a lot more thought if it went ahead.
The main sponsor of the event would provide the prize money for the main finals, and maybe a little for each regional champion. But surely we could use a proportion of the money gathered via entrance fees to fund the region finals. Bear in mind that if only a few pubs enter then the region finals night will end up being a small affair, and could probably be held in a public house with just one table.
There would be many ins and outs to consider, but I still think the general idea is sound, and I fully believe it would attract some sponsorship because you’re actually giving the sponsors some incentive…. A National tournament held over an lengthy time period and promoted in various ways. Thrown in a dedicated website for the event with there name plastered all over it and you have yourself an attractive deal. At the moment all we can offer them is a single day’s exposure to the same crowd of small people who attend the majority of events, in other words no incentive or wide exposure for any perspective sponsor. Does that make sense?
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Post by milhouse on Jan 8, 2013 18:50:33 GMT
Not wanting to sound too negative here, but this has been spoken about a number of times and it really is not going to happen. For starters, we already have a competition for this (AE Pub Team Championships) and secondly, how is this going to get more players into the game? At my local venue, there is going to be nobody in there that is going to pay money to enter a competition against our team, no matter what the financial benefits are as they know there is no chance of them winning the match! I would bet this will be the same in every venue that has a team.
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Jan 9, 2013 0:18:21 GMT
Ok you make a fair point Milko, and your example you have cited may well be the case for many an "established" Bar Billiard venue.
But the whole idea of it would be to create a buzz and try to raise the profile of the game a bit. Furthermore, I can't think of any better way for a landlord somewhere out there with a table (but no team) to give them a reason to do something with it. That I believe is how we bring new players into the game. Tommo has already mentioned that there are more tables not being used that are being used. Would this not be a great reason for them to be pressed into service?
Would a few players having a go at that table they have always stared at never played not be a good thing? Is there absolutely no chance whatsoever that they may say to themselves “Hey, this game’s quite fun, I’d like to look into this more”
On this whole topic of how we bring new players into the game (after all that is the key issue with regards to the future) exactly how do people think we are going to do that? Not being funny or anything, but working within the confines of what we already have, or changing things slightly isn’t going to work with the state of the game and the economy/way the world is at present.
I now have a question for everyone. It’s a simple one and it goes like this….
Are you happy with the state of Bar Billiards?
If we are, then fine, I have absolutely no problems with that myself as I’m quite happy to just play my league games and attend the odd open to play and chat with friends. That is primarily what I and many others look for and that’s what we have. But if we’re not, then what exactly can we do?
And I ask this, because since I’ve returned to this forum, by far the most common thing I have read in response to anything I have suggested starts with something along the following lines….
“Sorry to sound negative…. But”
I hate to put it like this, but I can’t help but feel that my words are pretty fruitless and that every thread I contribute to ends up turning into a debate with one or two people about small details, rather than focusing on the big picture. I was actually reluctant to add to this threat started by Gandalf as I didn’t want to have my say and take over the conversation. I feel I have done that, and I apologise.
I’ll finish with a quote from the creator of this thread himself….
I could not agree more Sir, and this is the kind of mindset I believe we should embrace if we want to safeguard the future of our game.
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Post by milko on Jan 9, 2013 5:19:33 GMT
Ok you make a fair point Milko, and your example you have cited may well be the case for many an "established" Bar Billiard venue. Did I.... ::) ;D
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Jan 9, 2013 8:48:43 GMT
ahh man I'm sorry, I of course meant Milhouse.
It's the age you know, my brain is going!
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Post by BB Warrior on Jan 9, 2013 10:52:42 GMT
But the whole idea of it would be to create a buzz and try to raise the profile of the game a bit. Furthermore, I can't think of any better way for a landlord somewhere out there with a table (but no team) to give them a reason to do something with it. That I believe is how we bring new players into the game. Tommo has already mentioned that there are more tables not being used that are being used. Would this not be a great reason for them to be pressed into service? Would a few players having a go at that table they have always stared at never played not be a good thing? Is there absolutely no chance whatsoever that they may say to themselves “Hey, this game’s quite fun, I’d like to look into this more” Trying to be positive about this.... yes, it may well get a few more people playing the game as a "one-off" in their local pub if there is no established team there. BUT, would there be any restriction on who could enter at each venue?? The reason that I ask this question is that the NotW Darts competition had no restriction on who could enter at any venue, which meant that a number of players travelled around and entered in several different venues until they won one and qualified for the regional finals. I remember one year we had no less than 9 players (out of 11) from one team who all qualified for the second stage! :o Obviously, if that was allowed, it would bring in more revenue from entries at the early stages, but it would do very little to encourage "new" players to take part in the future if a few of the established local players were coming in from outside and thrashing them.... ::) Rules like this are something that need to be considered before any tournament like this is introduced, with the NotW Competition the argument always came back that it meant that "the best players will be in the regional finals" which wasn't a problem in darts.... but darts were not trying to bring new players into the game at that time. ;D If this competition ever gets off the ground, then I WOULD ENTER IT and enjoy playing in it..... ;D BUT.... I would not want to be involved with running it as, put simply, I think it would be a complete logistical nightmare. :o Sorry, but I am now going to return to.... I hate to put it like this, but I can’t help but feel that my words are pretty fruitless and that every thread I contribute to ends up turning into a debate with one or two people about small details, rather than focusing on the big picture. .... although I actually think that if you don't give this proper consideration then it will never be anything more than just a dream! :P The NotW Darts Competition worked well because it had a high profile backer and it got national coverage from the start.... entry forms were available in the newspaper and nearly every team had (at least) one person who bought these into there local pub on a darts night and stuck them up on a noticeboard for people to put their names on and the competitions at the venues were then arranged on a date that suited all of the players before the closing date for the regional finals. So, no problems for the organisers advertising the early qualifying events.... or for getting entry forms out to the venues. 8-) We would certainly not have that luxury and although it would be possible to get the entry forms out to existing venues (via the team players), who would be responsible for getting the forms out to "non-league" venues and trying to persuade the landlords there to run a competition?? Bearing in mind that we have already established that there are more non-league venues than there are league venues and that you are specifically trying to "target" these venues and new players and that, geographically, a lot of them are many miles away from exisiting Leagues and current players?? :o So.... how would you achieve this? Are you volunteering to travel round to all of these venues in your own time at your own cost? No, I guess not. Okay, I know that you have suggested setting up a YouTube Channel for Bar Billiards and a Bar Billiards Promotional Video (provided somebody pays for it!) which I am sure could be used to promote the game in these areas.... but you would still have to get these to those venues by some means and find out if there was any interest. :-/ The existing League venues and Regional Competitions in established areas could probably "self-run" themselves (to an extent), but the other areas that were mentioned would need somebody to run the Regional Competitions for them.... unlike darts, they would have no existing county organisation to arrange that for them. ::) Once you have actually got past these (very large) hurdles, it actually gets much easier after that.... I'm sure that the National Finals could easily be accommodated somewhere (perhaps at the Bournemouth weekend or the Post Office Club in Reading to minimise costs of venue, table hire etc) and there would be people available to run the finals without any problems. 8-) BUT.... I now have two questions for you.... 1) Would it actually ever reach that stage? 2) If it did, how many new players (and maybe new venues) would have been bought into the game? Clearly, at this time, those are rhetorical questions as nobody knows the answers..... ::) However, when I read your earlier post.... The main sponsor of the event would provide the prize money for the main finals, and maybe a little for each regional champion. But surely we could use a proportion of the money gathered via entrance fees to fund the region finals. Bear in mind that if only a few pubs enter then the region finals night will end up being a small affair, and could probably be held in a public house with just one table. .... I do have to wonder if it would be worth all of the effort it would need to start it all up or if it would simply turn into another version of a Singles Competition for the established players who already enter most of the Tournaments anyway?? :P I'm sorry.... I know that I have returned to..... “Sorry to sound negative…. But” I hate to put it like this, but I can’t help but feel that my words are pretty fruitless and that every thread I contribute to ends up turning into a debate with one or two people about small details, rather than focusing on the big picture. I was actually reluctant to add to this threat started by Gandalf as I didn’t want to have my say and take over the conversation. I feel I have done that, and I apologise. .... so let me try to end on a positive here. ;D Rather than trying to "change the world" from the top downwards.... why not run a local trial event in the summer within Brighton? The tables are already there and only have minimal use during the summer. Make it a competition for "Non-League Players Only" and arrange the events at 8 different venues around the town on 8 different nights then have a finals night for all of the winners at another venue. You would only need one table at the pub to do that, play all the games as single leg / even break matches as you are very unlikely to have players running tables out. ;D If you charged a nominal amount to enter it would cover the cost of the table and provide a small trophy (or prize money?) for the winner of each event.... you may even be able to get a local sponsor for the finals night if you can get details of the competition in the local paper? I would certainly be willing to come along to help you run the evenings and I am sure that there would be a few other players who would get involved as well to maybe give a few tips to the players.... 8-) If you get one new team.... or even a couple of new players.... to play in the League next season then the event would have been a success and could be expanded into other parts of Sussex for the following year. At that time, I am sure that other areas of the country may also want to give it a try which, eventually, could lead you to the competition that you would really want - a new national tournament. 8-) With proven success behind the idea, you are far more likely to get people to support your suggestion and, probably, also more likely to find sponsors who are willing to get involved. ;D If your aim is to get new players to take the game up, this seems like to simplest way to achieve this.... the first rule of marketing is to directly target the people that you want to reach! ;D So, perhaps you would like to consider the words that you used earlier.... I saw on a Bar Billiards website once the quote “ From this tiny acorn a mighty oak will grow”, does that not best describe exactly the kind of thing that were are talking about here? .... and try planting the acorn before you try growing the whole forest!! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 20, 2013 15:51:46 GMT
With all you bb fans with nothing to do tonight due to being snowbound, i've put to gether a table of current info on players and team numbers over the years gleaned from various web sites which is sketchy to say the least and may not be 100% correct please feel free to add data from your leagues to improve the picture by PM ing me your comments/data, i will be contacting each league at the end of the season to ask for current figures. regs cs Attachments:
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Post by BB Warrior on Jan 20, 2013 17:17:53 GMT
With all you bb fans with nothing to do tonight due to being snowbound, i've put to gether a table of current info on players and team numbers over the years gleaned from various web sites which is sketchy to say the least and may not be 100% correct Figures for Worthing last year are definitely wrong.... I think that perhaps you only looked at Premier / Division 1 information and did not include Divisions 2 and 3 so you have missed out a lot of teams and players. ::) Perhaps BigTJ can check his records for last season in Worthing and advise the correct numbers? West Sussex had 11 Teams and 67 Players last season based on the End of Season information that I received. ;) Horsham had 13 Teams and 104 players according to their End of Season Tables and Averages. ;) Brighton League had 13 Teams and 101 players based on the information shown on their website at the end of last season. ;) Hope these help you. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 17:40:15 GMT
Much work still to be done on this from information already available before anything conclusive can be presented.
Would have preferred to see a regional order rather than an alphabetical one.
It's alarming to see a very steady decline in Horsham, from 22 teams at the turn of the century to the current 13 teams. And at its azimuth in the 1980s the figure was as high as 48.
Mid Sussex is a strange one, which tends to oscillate, increasing since 2000 but suffering a (temporary ?) dip at the moment.
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Post by BB Warrior on Jan 20, 2013 17:54:35 GMT
Much work still to be done on this from information already available before anything conclusive can be presented. To be honest, I am not quite sure what use the information will be anyway.... ??? We all know that the number of players, teams and venues has declined in the past 5,10, 20 years.... but how does putting (rough) figures to how much the decline has been help us to get more players involved in the future....? ::) Perhaps we need to remember that the title of the thread is about the future of the game rather than the past. ;D
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 20, 2013 19:20:50 GMT
thanks for your input tommo and warrior got to start somewhere!, yes plenty of work still to do, as i think its worth doing i will continue to do so, its not hard keeping upto date but its quite hard to get passed info whithout the records that are availble, but not to me at present. Hopefully this will change once i get hold of the right people in the various leagues.
Warrior may not see the benefits but i hope in the long run others will
Format can be adjusted to suit anyones needs
will keep plugging away regs cs
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 20, 2013 20:11:44 GMT
i've missed a lot of the discussion on this thread so just catching up, just think i should reaffirm my position. We need to get real data which can be bought to committee who can formulate a strategy and nominate people within the bar billiard community to carry out tasks which would help to increase the volume of BB being played throughout the country.
At the moment we are just a few, acting on our own. without a mandate from any contolling body and therfore no authority to act or come up with or implement whatever is decided.
Reckon in the long run we should have a committee consisting of a developement officer in each region who could be responsible for targeting venues and developing communication/contact within the BB fraternity, perhaps a maximum of 6 like minded individuals who could coordinate and implement policy with the support of all county governing associations.
I would like to see some support for this in principle from AEBBA. if nothing else it would be nice to get an opinion from them.
regs cs
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Post by bigtj on Jan 20, 2013 20:35:23 GMT
Worthing last season 6 Premier 4 first and four second and 3 third.
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Post by BB Warrior on Jan 21, 2013 12:23:30 GMT
Warrior may not see the benefits but i hope in the long run others will will keep plugging away regs cs The only reason that I don't see any benefit in this is that I would suggest that it would be more useful to find out WHY people stopped playing the game?? ::) Surely that is what we should be looking at rather than HOW MANY of them stopped playing when we already know that the numbers have dropped significantly over the years....
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Post by BB Warrior on Jan 21, 2013 12:57:15 GMT
We need to get real data which can be bought to committee who can formulate a strategy and nominate people within the bar billiard community to carry out tasks which would help to increase the volume of BB being played throughout the country. There is nothing that I know of that prevents people within existing Leagues from doing this already.... and I already know of people that try to encourage new venues to take tables. ;) At the moment we are just a few, acting on our own. without a mandate from any contolling body and therfore no authority to act or come up with or implement whatever is decided. What mandate or authority does any local League (or even an individual) required from any controlling body (AEBBA, SCBBA or any other County Organisation) to try to get more people to play the game....?? Answer - NONE!! :P Will it make any difference at local level if AEBBA (or any other "controlling body") says that it's a good idea to do this.... :-/ Reckon in the long run we should have a committee consisting of a developement officer in each region who could be responsible for targeting venues and developing communication/contact within the BB fraternity, perhaps a maximum of 6 like minded individuals who could coordinate and implement policy with the support of all county governing associations. Answer - No, of course it won't! It will still be down to the local Leagues and the Committees that run them to try to do something within their own area. Nobody in AEBBA or elsewhere will be able to wave a magic wand and suddenly there are double the number of players and venues in local Leagues around the country. ::) I would like to see some support for this in principle from AEBBA. if nothing else it would be nice to get an opinion from them. If the type of "support" you are thinking of is financial from AEBBA (or County/League Organisations) then I doubt if there will be anything available in that respect, most of these that I have had involvement with struggle to make the books balance at the moment so wouldn't have anything to spare to advertise or promote the game to new players. :-/ I think that you also have to consider that something that may work to get new players in a "town League" (such as Brighton, Worthing or Eastbourne) may not be as effective in a "rural League" (such as Lewes, Mid-Sussex or Horsham) as the type of venues are so different. ::) For what it is worth, within the local Sussex Area, I think that the best way to try to expand the game is to approach Social Clubs and try to encourage them to install a table and get people there involved with playing the game as many Pubs only really seem interested in serving food nowadays.... it seems that more Darts, Snooker and Pool Teams are based in Clubs than Pubs so perhaps that shows how things have changed during the past few years. ;) But, and to return to a point that I have made before, surely the best way to start this it to try something LOCALLY and then try to expand it to the rest of the Country when it works.... you can't build a house from the chimney downwards, you have to have the foundations in place first! 8-)
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 21, 2013 14:03:32 GMT
We need to get real data which can be bought to committee who can formulate a strategy and nominate people within the bar billiard community to carry out tasks which would help to increase the volume of BB being played throughout the country. There is nothing that I know of that prevents people within existing Leagues from doing this already.... and I already know of people that try to encourage new venues to take tables. ;) What mandate or authority does any local League (or even an individual) required from any controlling body (AEBBA, SCBBA or any other County Organisation) to try to get more people to play the game....?? Answer - NONE!! :P Will it make any difference at local level if AEBBA (or any other "controlling body") says that it's a good idea to do this.... :-/ Answer - No, of course it won't! It will still be down to the local Leagues and the Committees that run them to try to do something within their own area. Nobody in AEBBA or elsewhere will be able to wave a magic wand and suddenly there are double the number of players and venues in local Leagues around the country. ::) I would like to see some support for this in principle from AEBBA. if nothing else it would be nice to get an opinion from them. If the type of "support" you are thinking of is financial from AEBBA (or County/League Organisations) then I doubt if there will be anything available in that respect, most of these that I have had involvement with struggle to make the books balance at the moment so wouldn't have anything to spare to advertise or promote the game to new players. :-/ I think that you also have to consider that something that may work to get new players in a "town League" (such as Brighton, Worthing or Eastbourne) may not be as effective in a "rural League" (such as Lewes, Mid-Sussex or Horsham) as the type of venues are so different. ::) For what it is worth, within the local Sussex Area, I think that the best way to try to expand the game is to approach Social Clubs and try to encourage them to install a table and get people there involved with playing the game as many Pubs only really seem interested in serving food nowadays.... it seems that more Darts, Snooker and Pool Teams are based in Clubs than Pubs so perhaps that shows how things have changed during the past few years. ;) But, and to return to a point that I have made before, surely the best way to start this it to try something LOCALLY and then try to expand it to the rest of the Country when it works.... you can't build a house from the chimney downwards, you have to have the foundations in place first! 8-) para 1 is it not better to at least try to get some accurate information so that we can all see whats really happening rather than guessing and making assumptions which seems to be prevelant here. yes there is nothing to stop individuals doing this already and I also now of people doing this but would it not be better for efforts to be coordinated surely it would make everthing easier, perhaps governing bodies talk about it already, i dont know because no one has said they do or commented in an way. Para 2 Agree its not critical to get support from govering bodies. but why couldn't county organisations just give support by agreeing that in priciple this needs to be looked into in the near future rather than when its too late, people would be more inclined to pass on information and it would show awareness and understanding and that at least someone wants to do something about the gradual decline in BB Para 3 of course it will be down to local individuals but whats wrong with coordinating with other groups and why can't AEBBA show an interest, again there has been no comment either way, perhaps this board is not the wright way to proceed perhaps i should write to the AEBBA to get comment? Para 4 yes its horses for courses but which horse and which course ::) para 5 yes a good idea, who should do what in which area and by when ? who is going to decide who does what? as previously stated a coordinated considered effort seems the way to go. its a few new players we need, not many just enough to stop the decline, and we need to keep the game interesting for the current players Anyway thanks for your further input warrior there were some positives in your comments, you may be surprised but i'm not trying to force anything on anyone, just want more people to discuss these issues positively for long term benefit of the players and the game. regs cs
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 14:56:22 GMT
We all seem to recognise a steady decline in our noble art, and unfortunately time can't stand still and none of us are getting any younger. Things happen and people change. Every once in a while there seems to be a momentous happening which affects the game's fortunes in one way or another, and sometimes a potential negative can be turned into a positive. These I think are the quantum leaps.... - Introduction of the game in the 1930s/ Table Operators / Leagues springing up.
- Second World War - no apparent lasting effect on the game's progress.
- 1950's - tables abound in the UK in their thousands.
- 1960's - some table manufacturers subject to takeovers or mergers / some go out of business.
- 1970's - some leagues go into decline, some vanish / vast export of Jelkes tables to the US.
- 1980's - advent of 8-Ball Pool, many pubs choose to have this over bar billiards (Pool shorter time, greater revenue)
- 1990's - Brewing industry changes - big conglomerates take over/ many pubs have facelift to concentrate on food.
- 2000-onwards - wholesale pub closures, many traditional venues lost. Biggest bar billiards rental outfit B-B Ltd ceases trading. Majority of their tables go into private ownership.
After the above-listed series of body blows, the tail wagged and the last one was turned into a huge positive: Syndicates were set up within the affected counties to buy the hitherto-rented-from-B-B Ltd tables. Thus the game's future was secured in Kent, Surrey, Hants, Berks, Bucks, Oxon and Northants. Some of the tables were bought by the venues themselves and in some cases (Surrey, Oxon, Kent) the County Associations themselves purchased the tables and act as Operators. On top of this, the AEBBA were able to borrow the funds needed to purchase the Championship set of ten tables to assure the future of the National tournaments. There is one future cloud looming on the horizon, which is what will happen if the last remaining table operator, Tarratts, cease their current operation in the county of Sussex. Hopefully the ten leagues that will be affected will be able to draw on the experience of what has gone before and will be able to cope with the situation accordingly. So really it's a question of putting effort into this and reacting in a positive way when the time comes. Maybe even setting the foundations in advance. Trying to be proactive elsewhere where the fruit has already withered on the vine does to me seem to be rather a pointless exercise. One further, recent, quantum leap of course is the resurgence in fortunes of the 4-Pin version of our game, with a strong league springing up this century in Norwich. As I've said before, they should be offered every encouragement, as should the pub in East Yorks which now hosts three tables (the Minerva in Hull). Everything should be done to reach out to such people. And if necessary also to those who appear to be in danger of going out of existence altogether.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Jan 21, 2013 23:51:10 GMT
Worthing last season 6 Premier 4 first and four second and 3 third. dave jones has sent me some figures but it on my work computer so wont get it till tuesday but thank for your input tony regs cs
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Post by BigPhilMac on Feb 28, 2013 18:45:59 GMT
I think, as i was saying in the london posts, we may need to think about expansion across the rest of the south. Weve achieved a lot by aquiring norfolk as an affiliate member, which will only do good for our community, but to me, it seems mad not to start investing time in london with the amount of tables there are. I fully understand that nothing could be more difficult than founding a league, but if we have a collective of current players close to thd general area, it could work wonders, obviously it wont happen overnight and theres always a chance of pubs shifting off their tables, itd probably take a good 3-5 years i think to achieve a minimal amount, but the more associations we have the better surely! I mentioned a london open too, i think thatd be difficult to do and run, but it may generate local interest, might surely be worth thinking about :)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2013 19:45:40 GMT
As we have transferred the discussion from another thread, here is some of the substance of what we said earlier: Wouldnt it be awesome if merry old london founded a league, i could imagine the london open for one thing ;D Extracted from the other thread: London rather strangely appears to be a no-go area as regards bar billiards ! Maybe it's because people have to be able to get around really quickly to meet up to play matches and the M25 is seen as the border for which this is possible. Tables do however exist within the circle of the M25 - I have played on tables in Raynes Park and Tooting, and also a league match at the Emma Hamilton (Wimbledon Chase) - though I doubt if those particular tables are still there now ! There's a remote possibility that pubs within close proximity in local areas (eg Hackney) could unite to get something going......and some places like Mark's Bar at the Hix in Soho stage their own tournament periodically, but as regards a London Open - ain't never gonna happen. :-/ You will see that the date of the original quote was 2006. Seven years down the line the game is no nearer taking off in a big way. "Merry Old London" is just too big, bad and dangerous ! Unfortunately in a lot of counties which do have bar billiards, the game has been shoved into a small enclave: Hants only really means Portsmouth and Bucks equals High Wycombe as examples. One could be forgiven for thinking that the city of Cambridge was vibrant in terms of bar billiards activity - but conversely league play does not exist in the city itself, only in the rural areas of the Isle of Ely and what used to be Huntingdonshire. There has to be a baseline of interest there in the first place for the game to take off around the locality. And unfortunately in London the game is seen as a rare and quaint novelty. Many tables are of the type unsuited to league play (narrow tables, modern tables) and those that are okay are more often than not poorly maintained or hard against a wall where some shots are rendered impossible.
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Post by BigPhilMac on Feb 28, 2013 23:57:00 GMT
As we have transferred the discussion from another thread, here is some of the substance of what we said earlier: Extracted from the other thread: There's a remote possibility that pubs within close proximity in local areas (eg Hackney) could unite to get something going......and some places like Mark's Bar at the Hix in Soho stage their own tournament periodically, but as regards a London Open - ain't never gonna happen. :-/ You will see that the date of the original quote was 2006. Seven years down the line the game is no nearer taking off in a big way. "Merry Old London" is just too big, bad and dangerous ! Unfortunately in a lot of counties which do have bar billiards, the game has been shoved into a small enclave: Hants only really means Portsmouth and Bucks equals High Wycombe as examples. One could be forgiven for thinking that the city of Cambridge was vibrant in terms of bar billiards activity - but conversely league play does not exist in the city itself, only in the rural areas of the Isle of Ely and what used to be Huntingdonshire. There has to be a baseline of interest there in the first place for the game to take off around the locality. And unfortunately in London the game is seen as a rare and quaint novelty. Many tables are of the type unsuited to league play (narrow tables, modern tables) and those that are okay are more often than not poorly maintained or hard against a wall where some shots are rendered impossible. It is a shame really because round oxford ive definitely noticed that a bit if TLC goes a hell of a long way. I think youre right though clive that london is far too vast an area to travel for a league game, it just makes me think itd be possible if it was confined over one or two boroughs geographically close to each other, of course the issue of table standards is acwhole different thing altogether. I suppose im very obsessed with the idea of tapping potential talent. :)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 0:35:07 GMT
It is a shame really because round oxford ive definitely noticed that a bit if TLC goes a hell of a long way. I think youre right though clive that london is far too vast an area to travel for a league game, it just makes me think itd be possible if it was confined over one or two boroughs geographically close to each other, of course the issue of table standards is a whole different thing altogether. I suppose im very obsessed with the idea of tapping potential talent. :) Well your county (Oxon) and my county (Sussex) are the two where the game is played the most. So all we can do is to try our bit as ambassadors ! ;D Whenever I am in London for a day out I try and investigate one or more of the alleged venues (as per the AEBBA map) and try to have casual conversation with any interested locals or bar staff and leave my calling card. The same if I am on holiday in this country - eg East Anglia or the West Country. Always try and sound out a few pubs along the way. One day I'd love to visit that one in Kingston-upon-Hull where the landlord brought in Three - yes - three tables. If more people do it - who knows ? :-/
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Post by BigPhilMac on Mar 1, 2013 1:11:35 GMT
It is a shame really because round oxford ive definitely noticed that a bit if TLC goes a hell of a long way. I think youre right though clive that london is far too vast an area to travel for a league game, it just makes me think itd be possible if it was confined over one or two boroughs geographically close to each other, of course the issue of table standards is a whole different thing altogether. I suppose im very obsessed with the idea of tapping potential talent. :) Well your county (Oxon) and my county (Sussex) are the two where the game is played the most. So all we can do is to try our bit as ambassadors ! ;D Whenever I am in London for a day out I try and investigate one or more of the alleged venues (as per the AEBBA map) and try to have casual conversation with any interested locals or bar staff and leave my calling card. The same if I am on holiday in this country - eg East Anglia or the West Country. Always try and sound out a few pubs along the way. One day I'd love to visit that one in Kingston-upon-Hull where the landlord brought in Three - yes - three tables. If more people do it - who knows ? :-/ Three tables, good lord we will have bar billiards halls next ;D i have to admit, whenever im about the country in one capacity or another, i do always think to myself on spotting these pubs, hmmm i wonder if there is a table in that one. I ought to go on a UK table tour :P Along with things i ought to do to do my bit for the game, youngster recruitment drives in the local area. The amount of people I have asking me about the tables and the game itself is amazing, clearly interest; interest to be tapped ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 11:57:24 GMT
I had to pick my son up from Witney last night so decided to pop in to the Fox to have a look at this one and it's a Supreme table with an MDF base that also has a small "D" which has a hole/groove underneath caused by banging the ball on the table, so when you play your shots from the middle of the "D" the balls deviate straight up the table! The table also needs to be moved away from the wall and bar because you can't play all the shots. It also has four mushroom pegs and no spot for the red ball. ...and as for that damn coin mechanism ??? I have an injured little finger on my left hand that was caused when I opened a gate and got it caught in it. (two weeks running :-[) so I wasn't happy when I banged my hand on it picking a ball out of the tray. :'( I spoke to the landlord and landlady (who seemed keen to know) about the two versions of the game saying that the "3 pin" was more popular in the area than the "4 pin" version but they don't know which one to use yet. I'm also not sure they were very impressed with my opinions of the table! The above experience of Milko's is worth quoting as it demonstrates something of what threatens the game's future. Effectively serious bar billiards players are all members of a 'vintage/veteran enthusiasts club'. Take the analogy of the motor car where only those of the best build quality would have stood the test of time. Not only would a cheap modern mass-produced car not be welcomed, but there would be no pride in ownership as it would not be expected to last ten years - let alone seventy. And us 'club members' are not prepared to settle for 'second best'. So what do we do ? Rather than embark on a rather futile attempt to nurture play at obscure venues with unsuitable tables, wouldn't it be better to see our duty as to assure the game's short-term future.......by means of dedicated players or leagues/associations snapping up any quality tables coming onto the market, rather then letting them slip through our fingers ?
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Post by syorksbilliards on Sept 1, 2014 13:48:07 GMT
I feel I need to put my little bit in here as here in Yorkshire me and thorperoo are working really hard in our own leauges and bar billiards in general we have added soon to be 15 tables in the last year to Yorkshire I belive were there is demand there will be someone who will want to profit from it maybe if we could support the AEBBA then they could buy and restore the tables and bring them to the supporting parties who want to save our great game not sure if this is possable I know I am new to this game but have a lot of passion and work hard to bring bar billiards back to Yorkshire and anyone who will listen
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 14:08:11 GMT
Hi South Yorks, Hopefully the Yorkshire revival has not gone unnoticed, and I spotted that you generously donated to the Northants tour, as well as helping to organise the Yorkshire challenge weekend - all of which demonstrates your intent to build on the start.
The next step, when you are absolutely ready, is to affiliate to the All-England Bar Billiards Association. Membership only costs I believe a tenner per county (correct me if I'm wrong) and that would entitle you to send your local champions to National events.
There's the National Team Championships, the Inter-County Championships, and the National Singles (separate competitions for Ladies and Men). Current participants are Cambs, Northants, Oxon, Bucks, Berks, Hants, Surrey, Sussex and Kent. Jersey and Guernsey are associate members and sometimes send their champions despite rather prohibitive travel costs. Norfolk and Suffolk joined us last year.
There is plenty to catch up on regarding when the AEBBA AGM is, and past winners/participants of the County competitions if you go into the All England website (click on the link at the top of the page.)
Regards, tommo
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Nov 30, 2014 1:25:04 GMT
Hi BB Fans everywhere Question and Answer session Part 1 other parts to follow as time allows Question 1 What will the bar billiards world be like in 10 years time? Don't have any stats to go on but in my area there has been a gradual continued decline in players, tables and venue numbers. Are there stats available somewhere to demonstrate whats been happening over the last few years? Question 2 Is the above assertion true and is there the will in the Bar Billiards community to do some thing about it?Don't know, being a relative newcomer to the forum I'm not familiar with any BB think tank looking at this issue. please advise if such a committee is in place looking at ways to reverse the situation Question3 what needs to be done?Decide on a strategy in cooperation with Players, leagues, AEBBA,landlords and Table suppliers that will lead to a substantial increase in the number of players venues and tables throughout the country that is reasonable, practical and achievable and financially viable. question 4 Who will benefit in the long term?Landlords - more players more profits Table suppliers - more rented tables more profits Leagues - larger membership, more teams, increased opportunities of improvement, more interesting matches mean more fun. Question 5 The big one...How do we achieve this...?a.We have to make bar billiards more accessible to new players b.Make the game more fun to play at all levels. c.Make all aspects of the game as fair as possible for all players at all levels. Hope you find the above thought provoking and there is general agreement with the content above, will expand on question 5 in part 2 but please feel free to make comment yourselves regs cs Deja by Mark2
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