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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 5, 2013 9:35:07 GMT
I feel that this is a subject that should really be left to the England Team Selectors to discuss amongst themsleves rather than members of the Forum trying to make the decisions for them. ::)
I would humbly suggest that maybe it would be best to firstly find out if all of the players are available and want to play in the match against Guernsey.... as some of them may have other commitments on that date anyway. ;)
So, to start with, perhaps we should remind ourselves of the players that were originally selected....
1. Kevin Tunstall (capt) 2. Nigel Senior 3. Paul Sainsbury 4. Curt Driver 5. Phil Collins 6. Steven Sheard 7. Richard Wooton 8. Ian Lelliott 9. Mark Trafford 10. Dave Ingram 11. Jim Millward
Reserves 1. Mark Brewster 2. Henry Brooks 3. Jim Greensted 4. Chris Saville 5. Leon Beer 6. Gerry Fitzjohn 7. Simon Coleman
And here are the players that played in the away match against Jersey....
Kevin Tunstall (capt) Paul Sainsbury Nigel Senior Dave Ingram Jim Greensted Chris Saville Gerry Fitzjohn Simon Coleman Lorin Clough Geoff Jukes Pete Sainsbury
Once the availability of the players has been established, the selectors will then need to make a decision and then invite the players that have been selected to play in the match and then announce the actual Team to play. 8-)
PS. Dear Selectors.... I'm available to play, if required. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by milhouse on Feb 5, 2013 14:19:46 GMT
Couldn't agree more with Curt's comments above.
If the selection for the Guernsey International is going to change, is this not an AGM decision to make...?
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 5, 2013 14:38:25 GMT
Couldn't agree more with Curt's comments above. If the selection for the Guernsey International is going to change, is this not an AGM decision to make...? I always thought that the England Team Selection Committee sat separately to the AGM and simply met on the same date for convenience as all of the Selectors would be there?.... I certainly don't remember any discussion about who should be in the Team at the last AGM I attended? ;) If that is correct then the decision would not be an AGM matter.... but perhaps I am wrong about that. :-/
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Post by milko on Feb 5, 2013 16:18:48 GMT
Firstly can I thank Dave for putting the original list up, as I couldn't find the list and my paperwork of the selection meeting has gone missing.
Whilst I have sympathy with those players that gallantly took part in the Jersey match away, in that they would obviously like to play in the home match against Guernsey, it was already decided (as previously stated) that those first ten players in the original list should play in that match. I also know that KT and myself was very disappointed about so many withdrawals but all players had their reasons for not going and their decisions should be respected and after such a superb win by the eventual England team I can see why he’s thinking as he is.
BUT decisions are decisions, so I now think that KT as captain should contact those players on the original list to see if they are available to play and if not then go down the list.
Keith
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Post by Coleman Jnr on Feb 5, 2013 17:17:44 GMT
Obvioulsy not everyone can afford to pay the costs to travel over to Jersey/Guernsey to play in the internationals, and unless Bar Billiards has a budget like the premier league that is never going to change!
I am unfamiliar with the format, understanding that Guernsey play pairs aswell. Do the same people who play the Singles, have to play in the pairs, or could you almagamate the original squad with the players who traveled to Jersey to give everyone a game?
Just a thought, and this has probably been thought up and shot down in the past, so if it has im sorry in advance....
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Richard
Full Forum Member
Posts: 371
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Post by Richard on Feb 5, 2013 17:24:39 GMT
I fully agree with Curt
Since being picked for England , I have played every game , in England, Jersey and Guernsey , including when I was picked as a reserve.
This recent game was the only game I have not been able to make , due to not being able to get time off , and also I have a holiday booked in March which has cost a fair bit.
This aside I have been on crutches since 14th December and wearing a leg brace and only had a knee operation on 25th January , therefore I would have not been able to play anyway.
So to then drop me for the next game seems very unfair indeed.
Richard
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Post by milhouse on Feb 5, 2013 17:36:40 GMT
Obvioulsy not everyone can afford to pay the costs to travel over to Jersey/Guernsey to play in the internationals, and unless Bar Billiards has a budget like the premier league that is never going to change! I am unfamiliar with the format, understanding that Guernsey play pairs aswell. Do the same people who play the Singles, have to play in the pairs, or could you almagamate the original squad with the players who traveled to Jersey to give everyone a game? Just a thought, and this has probably been thought up and shot down in the past, so if it has im sorry in advance.... When playing the international in Guernsey, there are also open pairs and singles events, so there is the opportunity to win some prize money to help pay for the travel etc.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 15, 2013 11:15:29 GMT
Now the dust has settled on the Jersey game, may I ask whether the selectors have reached a majority decision on asking from the top of the selection list down for the Guernsey game and initially dropping seven of the eleven who went to Jersey please?
Personally I need to commit to one or other of two things on the Guernsey evening and I cannot wait for a couple of months before doing so or I may miss out on both.
There is nothing in the AEBBA Rule book that forces a decision either way.
Following heated discussion on the subject, if the selectors have not discussed this, may I request that they do so ASAP.
Sav.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 12:28:34 GMT
Obvioulsy not everyone can afford to pay the costs to travel over to Jersey/Guernsey to play in the internationals, and unless Bar Billiards has a budget like the premier league that is never going to change! I am unfamiliar with the format, understanding that Guernsey play pairs aswell. Do the same people who play the Singles, have to play in the pairs, or could you almagamate the original squad with the players who traveled to Jersey to give everyone a game? Just a thought, and this has probably been thought up and shot down in the past, so if it has im sorry in advance.... I would urge the selectors to study Coleman III's excellent suggestion above, as it offers a way of pleasing everybody. The last time England faced Guernsey at home, 9 double framed singles and 4 quadruple framed doubles were played. By splitting into separate squads for singles and doubles, a total of 17 players could represent England on this occasion as a one-off.
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Post by milko on Feb 15, 2013 13:20:51 GMT
Just to say that I've messaged Kevin and the rest of the selectors about this and hopefully we will have a decision made on this subject shortly.
milko
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Post by milhouse on Feb 15, 2013 14:33:08 GMT
Now the dust has settled on the Jersey game, may I ask whether the selectors have reached a majority decision on asking from the top of the selection list down for the Guernsey game and initially dropping seven of the eleven who went to Jersey please? Personally I need to commit to one or other of two things on the Guernsey evening and I cannot wait for a couple of months before doing so or I may miss out on both. There is nothing in the AEBBA Rule book that forces a decision either way. Following heated discussion on the subject, if the selectors have not discussed this, may I request that they do so ASAP. Sav. These players were invited to play as some of the originally selected players could not make it, so they are not being dropped. If these players who played in Jersey play against Guernsey, then it is the originally selected players who are the ones who are being dropped.
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Post by milhouse on Feb 15, 2013 14:34:52 GMT
I would urge the selectors to study Coleman III's excellent suggestion above, as it offers a way of pleasing everybody. The last time England faced Guernsey at home, 9 double framed singles and 4 quadruple framed doubles were played. By splitting into separate squads for singles and doubles, a total of 17 players could represent England on this occasion as a one-off. Do not think that this is a solution as you will then have the same problem as before, turning up for only one game. Add to that the additional cost of the extra trophies.....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 14:43:55 GMT
Do not think that this is a solution as you will then have the same problem as before, turning up for only one game. Add to that the additional cost of the extra trophies..... Seems you want all or nothing Mark, and no compromise. How is a double-framed singles or a four-framed doubles only one game ? Next you'll be asking for a Plate ! ;D As for cost of extra trophies - pah !
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Post by Colemanator on Feb 15, 2013 15:19:08 GMT
Time Gentlemen please 8-)
Let the selectors decide. Until then, this is just going round in circles.
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Post by milhouse on Mar 14, 2013 10:35:03 GMT
Has any decision been made on the team for the upcoming game against Guernsey? It is not long to go, so need to start looking for somewhere to stay if playing.
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Post by milko on Mar 14, 2013 13:45:17 GMT
Has any decision been made on the team for the upcoming game against Guernsey? It is not long to go, so need to start looking for somewhere to stay if playing. I quite agree as players have been waiting long enough now, so it's time for Dave as the AEBBA secretary to make an announcement to let everyone know the final decision, including me ??? but then I'm only an "England Team Selector"!!!!! :P Keith :(
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Post by BB Warrior on Mar 14, 2013 15:04:28 GMT
Has any decision been made on the team for the upcoming game against Guernsey? It is not long to go, so need to start looking for somewhere to stay if playing. I quite agree as players have been waiting long enough now, so it's time for Dave as the AEBBA secretary to make an announcement to let everyone know the final decision, including me ??? but then I'm only an "England Team Selector"!!!!! :P Keith :( I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that the selectors (obviously) didn't discuss this at Bournemouth as I think they were all there.... I would have thought that would have been a good opportunity to sort it out? ::) Oh well, I'm sure that we will all find out sooner or later who has been picked.... :-/
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Post by milko on Mar 18, 2013 14:44:14 GMT
I'm tired of waiting for anyone to make a statement on this now, so this will be my last time as an England Team selector.
Milko >:( :(
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Post by SirKT on Mar 18, 2013 15:47:36 GMT
We were hoping to get a definite number of players coming over from Guernsey before we named the team to play them. But as we`re having no luck on that front, I will name the team to play on Saturday 8th June.
SINGLES
Paul Sainsbury (Berks) Jim Greensted (Sussex) Chris Saville (Kent) Lorin Clough (Northants) Simon Coleman (Northants) Dave Ingram (Sussex) Curt Driver (Kent) Steven Sheard (Oxon) Mark Trafford (Oxon)
DOUBLES These players will be added to the squad to make up the Doubles matches.
Kevin Tunstall (Capt) Geoff Jukes Gerry Fitzjohn Pete Sainsbury Steven Coleman Henry Brooks
If you are playing in the Singles matches, it doesn`t guarantee that you will be playing in the Doubles as well. This is the fairest system that the majority of selectors came up with.
NB. Several of the originally selected team in December are unnavailable to play in June
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Post by milko on Mar 27, 2013 14:11:58 GMT
Being one of the current selection committee I must admit to being very disappointed and angry about the underhand way that this has been decided upon. I did agree to a compromise to join both the “originals” with the side that went to Jersey (didn't have much choice :P) but knew nothing about how the sides were going to be mixed together and there would have been no way that I would have agreed to the team as it is!
There are at least two other selectors that I know of that haven’t been told beforehand. :o
I also realise that I should have insisted on a meeting in Bournemouth to find out and discuss what was going to happen, as all the selectors were there at the time. I’ve been a selector for a few years now and have never had to be part of the farce that has happened this year before and I hope that the AEBBA can sort something out in the future so this doesn’t happen again. Good luck to whoever is on the selection committee next year.
Keith Sheard (a former England Team Selector :()
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 14:27:44 GMT
Could not this thread be moved to an area where Members only can see ? I've just logged out and it's still visible to Guests, which I don't think is right. Dirty linen and all that.
tommo
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Post by SirKT on Mar 27, 2013 15:09:02 GMT
Unfortunately Keith, the "farce" as you put it was having to select a squad of 18 players because we had heard some whispers about several players not wanting to make the trip for 2 legs of Bar Billiards. I`ve said my piece on this matter already but I will add - maybe Glenn`s suggestion isn`t a bad one :P
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Post by milhouse on Mar 27, 2013 19:11:07 GMT
What was Glenn's suggestion? I see something has been removed, but couldn't access the site yesterday, so couldn't see it.
On the point of "Only playing 2 legs of Bar Billiards" I think that is a bit misleading as it is purely down to the cost of playing those 2 games which is why people cannot play.
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Apr 5, 2013 14:24:21 GMT
I'm sad to hear you are stepping down Keith. I know you to be one of the most respected people in our Bar Billiards circle, and on that basis alone I hope you reverse your decision.
To quickly answer your question Milhouse, my post was designed to start a two-fold debate. Firstly, to gain ideas about how we select the team, but secondly, and I feel far more importantly to make the England selection process (whatever that may be) part of the official AEBBA rules for the purpose of transparency and a more professional organisation (as we did with the rankings about 8 year ago where we went from "Fazza" points to an official Rankings System).
However I do now feel it is a discussion far better suited for the AGM, as I really didn't want anyone thinking it was an attack on any members of the current or past England Team. They should all be applauded for their efforts, victories, and for all being great and worthy players.
Anyway, I hope you change your mind Keith.
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Post by milko on Apr 6, 2013 13:26:41 GMT
Glenn, that’s very kind of you to say that and I thank you for it but I will not be changing my mind. I’ve enjoyed being on the selection committee (until this year :() and have always based my selections on what players have done over the whole year and not those who have entered just one tournament (unless they have won the All England Singles or World Championships) or those famous big name players who don’t play the circuit anymore but still seem to get mentioned by certain selectors. I’m not sure if we need to bring in a different procedure to pick the England Team because we are very thorough in how we look at the players form and with Nigel’s excellent spread sheet we can all see what players have done in all tournaments throughout the year. I do agree though with a suggestion made by a respected top player in Sussex that told me that we should pick the team on merit for each International separately (Two meetings) and not do as we do now in choosing the same team to play both Internationals against Jersey & Guernsey at the AGM. By the sounds of it Pauline will also be standing down but her reasons are health related. :(
Keith
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Post by BB Warrior on Apr 6, 2013 22:06:56 GMT
I do agree though with a suggestion made by a respected top player in Sussex that told me that we should pick the team on merit for each International separately (Two meetings) and not do as we do now in choosing the same team to play both Internationals against Jersey & Guernsey at the AGM. An interesting idea.... but surely both teams (if different to each other) could be picked at the same meeting rather than having an additional meeting? ;) Like Glenn, I am very sorry to hear that you (and Pauline) will be standing down as England Selectors.... :'(
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Post by bigtj on Apr 7, 2013 9:15:11 GMT
A great shame that it has come to Keith standing down and sorry Pauline may do so due to health reasons. Lets hope that we find someone who has his principles to take his place and that some ideas are talked through at the AGM.
Sorry also to hear that your mind is not for changing.
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Post by BB Warrior on May 16, 2013 10:16:16 GMT
We were hoping to get a definite number of players coming over from Guernsey before we named the team to play them. But as we`re having no luck on that front, I will name the team to play on Saturday 8th June. SINGLES Paul Sainsbury (Berks) Jim Greensted (Sussex) Chris Saville (Kent) Lorin Clough (Northants) Simon Coleman (Northants) Dave Ingram (Sussex) Curt Driver (Kent) Steven Sheard (Oxon) Mark Trafford (Oxon) DOUBLES These players will be added to the squad to make up the Doubles matches. Kevin Tunstall (Capt) Geoff Jukes Gerry Fitzjohn Pete Sainsbury Steven Coleman Henry Brooks If you are playing in the Singles matches, it doesn`t guarantee that you will be playing in the Doubles as well. This is the fairest system that the majority of selectors came up with. NB. Several of the originally selected team in December are unnavailable to play in June I understand that Guernsey will probably only be bringing 7 players over with them next month and believe that the format may well change for the international meaning that the Guernsey players will be playing 2 matches against two "seperate" England Teams on the night with no doubles matches being played. That should make it an interesting evening, although it is a shame that it means that the England players will have less games than normal themselves..... ::) .... would it be possible to play it is a triangular competition to allow more games and add some extra incentive to all of the players? ;D
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Post by Chris_Sav on May 16, 2013 10:25:50 GMT
I understand that Guernsey will probably only be bringing 7 players over with them next month and believe that the format may well change for the international meaning that the Guernsey players will be playing 2 matches against two "seperate" England Teams on the night with no doubles matches being played. I have no knowledge of any change of format as an AEBBA committee member Sav
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Post by BB Warrior on May 16, 2013 10:36:48 GMT
[I have no knowledge of any change of format as an AEBBA committee member Sav I was told by a couple of members of the Guernsey Committee that the suggestion had been made to change the format to 2 games of singles (double legs) for each of the Guernsey players against 2 different England players and that "was likely" to be the format as it meant more of the England Team would get a game than if it were to be the usual format of singles and doubles due to the extended size of the England Team and the smaller than usual Guernsey Team this year. I do not know if this has been "confirmed", which is the reason that I put the previous post on here to find out if this was going to happen.... :-/ Obviously this has not been approved by AEBBA yet so I shall await with interest to see what decision is reached. ;)
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