AEBBA Team Championships - Team & Player Eligibility?

[BB Warrior]

Every year we seem to have the same discussion and queries raised as to whether some players are eligible to play for a team, whether this is as a "guest" or even as a regular player for their team.

How can we resolve this problem?

The answer must be for everybody to know what criteria and format all of the counties use to determine which team represents them at the AEBBA Team Finals. Once that has been established, there should be no confusion about this subject and I am sure that it will also be much easier for County Secretaries and AEBBA Secretary to find out if a player is eligible or not to play for a team.

So, what criteria do the counties use at present.....

Berkshire - ?

Bucks - Winners of Team knock-out competition.

Cambs - Not currently affiliated to AEBBA

Hampshire - Winners of Team knock-out competition.

Kent - KBBA used to hold a KO comp, but as only the odd team in Tunbridge Wells and Medway are interested I believe they effectively alternate representation. (Chris Saville).

Northants - Winners of Team knock-out competition.

Oxon - Independent Competition that is open to all teams within Oxon Leagues

Surrey - Team selected to represent Redhill League (Surrey) by the League Committee

Sussex - Independent Competition (Watney Mann Cup) that is open to all teams within Sussex Leagues.

It would be very helpful if people on the Forum from within each County could advise the criteria, format and any applicable rules that are used to decide the team that represents them at the AEBBA Team Finals each year.

[BB Warrior]

I will start the ball rolling with Sussex.

Sussex hold an independent competition, the Watney Mann Cup, to decide which team will represent the county at the AEBBA Team Championships each year.

The current rules for this competition are as shown below...

RULES FOR SUSSEX TEAMS COMPETITION

1. This competition will be known as the Sussex Team Championships. It will bear the name of the current sponsors and be controlled by the Association's Committee. The cup will be retained and be competed for only within the County of SUSSEX.

2 The Competition is open to any Pub or Club Team in Sussex

3. A Team will consist of 5 players all of which must have been registered for that Team during the previous season of the league, together with one guest player who must be notified to the Competition Secretary before the start of the Competition.

4. All games in the final match to be played.

5. The competition will be played on a home and away knockout basis. The first Team drawn, to play at home in the first match. In each match the away Team to have 2nd, 3rd and 5th breaks and the home team to have 1st and 4th breaks. The order of play to be drawn for at the start of the second match the Captain of each Team shall nominate a player to play oft in the event of a drawn result with each player having the break, the away player to break first.

6. The Committee shall have the power at any period to strike out from the competition any Team, which by reason of their engagement or lack of playing facilities is liable to delay unduly the progress of the competition.

7. The Competitions Secretary must be informed of each result.

Most seasons we have between 10-12 teams entering the competition which is normally played during the summer proceeding the AEBBA Team Finals in October.

The Rule allowing a guest player would obviously have to be reviewed if AEBBA Rules were changed to either forbid this or to allow a guest without restrictions of where that player normally played.

Surrey have only the one league - Redhill - and therefore the League Championship-winning side (sometimes the runners-up) are sent to represent the County.

I noted there was an exception in 1982 when White Hart Cranleigh (a team from the west of the county, playing in one of the Sussex Leagues) was allowed to enter - and won - the "Surrey zone of the All-England competition".

You've missed Cambs off your list, by the way.

[magners]

I can confirm that we have now amended our rules to satisfy the AE criteria. Our representatives will now be selected by the committee and invited to represent Surrey.

[milhouse]

Oxfordshire hold a separate competition - currently held on one day to determine the winners.

This is open to any team in any of the 4 leagues in Oxfordshire.

[BB Warrior]

Oct 20, 2014 12:28:22 GMT magners said:

I can confirm that we have now amended our rules to satisfy the AE criteria. Our representatives will now be selected by the committee and invited to represent Surrey.

Hi Gary, to avoid having any "muddy waters" here as we attempting to clarify the qualifying criteria.... please can you give a bit more detail about how the committee would choose the representatives?

Would all teams (and therefore players) have an equal chance at the start of the season to be selected by the Committee, assuming that the choice is usually made based on performance in your League or Cup competition?

Is there any separate competition or criterian used to determine the selected representatives?

[magners]

Hi Dave, not yet. It is purely at the committees discretion. All teams have an equal chance, but it means any players that do not qualify would automatically be excluded. I expect the offer to be made based on league performance mainly. I do not envisage us having to be too ruthless due to excessive numbers!!

[BB Warrior]

Oct 21, 2014 13:34:24 GMT magners said:

Hi Dave, not yet. It is purely at the committees discretion. All teams have an equal chance, but it means any players that do not qualify would automatically be excluded. I expect the offer to be made based on league performance mainly. I do not envisage us having to be too ruthless due to excessive numbers!!

I would be interested to know how AEBBA would interpret that comment as far as eligibility is concerned for players that would either be a guest for the team representing Surrey or a player that then plays in another qualifying competition in another County....??

[barbelman]

I'm confused...   

Tony

[Chris_Sav]

Oct 21, 2014 15:28:48 GMT barbelman said:

I'm confused...   

Tony

Ditto

Is this all about the Pub Team Comp or is Gary talking about Surrey County selection?

The current rules governing eligibility, though having been relaxed to allow someone to represent a different County in the National Team Competition and the Inter-Counties, still contain an anomaly.

This is caused by differences in individual county set-ups. At the one end of the spectrum you have counties with more than one league or association (Sussex, Oxon, Kent), who because of the extra layer need an extra competition/playoff to decide who is going forward to champion their county's cause. At the other end, there are the counties with a single league (Surrey, Hampshire, Berkshire, Bucks, Northants and Cambs) to whom it is left to their discretion to decide who is their champion team, and how it is decided.

Surrey have more or less been accused of muddying the waters, but it is really their own business if they decide to send their League champions/runners-up - or the winners of one of their Team Cups (they have two to choose from).

The anomaly now exists in the form of the requirement for a player not to have taken part in the qualifying competition of another county if he/she is part of a winning side representing another county. This could be interpreted as excluding (for example) a member of the winning team from Sussex on the basis that he/she had played for ANY team in Redhill league whether or not they won anything - purely by dint of Surrey choosing Redhill's A League as the qualifying criterion for that year. This would be unfair to the extreme.

So there are two factors to be resolved here: Firstly to arrive at a better wording that resolves this anomaly. And secondly we seem to be divided into two camps: those who want the guest option removed completely and those who want it left in.

The second part can go before the AGM as rival proposals to stand or fall when the time comes.
But I suggest that we put our differences aside on this question for the present, and work together to reach a decent unequivocal amendment to the existing wording so doubt no longer exists as to who is eligible and who is not.

[BB Warrior]

Hi Tommo, thanks for your input on the subject, much appreciated.

Oct 21, 2014 16:05:09 GMT tommo III said:

But I suggest that we put our differences aside on this question for the present, and work together to reach a decent unequivocal amendment to the existing wording so doubt no longer exists as to who is eligible and who is not.

The purpose of starting this thread was to try to establish what criteria counties use to decide which teams will represent them at the AEBBA Team Champs Final, until we know that I think that it is hard to avoid some of the controversial situations that have occurred in the past.

The thread was not intended to cause arguments or to point fingers at any county, as you rightly say the counties should all make their own decisions on which team represents them and what process they use to decide that.

I am pleased that you have actually highlighted one of my biggest concerns about the proposed changes to the Rules....

Oct 21, 2014 16:05:09 GMT tommo III said:

The anomaly now exists in the form of the requirement for a player not to have taken part in the qualifying competition of another county if he/she is part of a winning side representing another county. This could be interpreted as excluding (for example) a member of the winning team from Sussex on the basis that he/she had played for ANY team in Redhill league whether or not they won anything - purely by dint of Surrey choosing Redhill's A League as the qualifying criterion for that year. This would be unfair to the extreme.

I do not think that there should be ANYTHING in the Rules that would prevent a player taking part in ANY competition for his USUAL TEAM regardless of whether that is a qualifying competition for the AEBBA Team competition in different counties. Obviously, a player should not be allowed to play for 2 different teams in the same competition within the same County.... but if a player is regular player for a Surrey team on one night and a Sussex Team on another night (or any other combination of counties) then he should be able to play for his teams in both.

Obviously, if both of his teams reach the AEBBA Team Finals, then he would have to choose which team he would represent and the other team would have to play someone else in his place in the Finals.

Ny other big concern is the proposal to allow ANY PLAYER (from any county) to be a guest player for a team in the competition. To me that simply opens the door to abuse as it would enable a team to artificially strengthen themselves by taking a player that has no link or association to their team, league or even to their county. That has to be wrong and would simply turn this competition into another version of the County Championships.... without even the need to have players from the same county in your team.

Please could people from the other counties let us know how they decide which team will represent them and then we can actually put forward a meaningful proposal if we need to change the rules...??

[Chris_Sav]

I thought this thread was to enquire how counties decide on which of their teams represent them at the finals?

Not just to repeat, yet again, what has been said on the original thread on allowing guest players?

[Chris]

Dear All

I will give an answer re Hampshire and then go OFF topic.

We keep to the rules re players and guests and play it as a knockout. I had already checked this with all AEBBA committee members inckuding the two associate members and clarified we keep to the rules.


Off Topic

If you have an issue within a County and you are their secretary / county committe - tell them and deal with it - as a county you are responsible to follow the rules

If the issue continues, inform the AEBBA and let the AEBBA secretary determine eligibility.

If you are not part of the county that you have an issue with - let them know - and inform the AEBBA Sec and committe.

If a team turns up on the day that is not eligible they cannot play.


Simple...


Sorry, I am sure this post may cause issues with some but time is precious and I have none to waste

[jordans]

Only having one league in Bucks with 8 teams it's quite easy for us :). We have a seperate knockout competition and the final is held on our final's day. The winner then goes on to represent Bucks in the Team Championship.

[BB Warrior]

Oct 21, 2014 21:18:03 GMT jordans said:

Only having one league in Bucks with 8 teams it's quite easy for us :). We have a seperate knockout competition and the final is held on our final's day. The winner then goes on to represent Bucks in the Team Championship.

Thanks Dawn, that is nice and straightforward.

[BB Warrior]

Oct 21, 2014 18:09:50 GMT Chris said:

Dear All

I will give an answer re Hampshire and then go OFF topic.

We keep to the rules re players and guests and play it as a knockout. I had already checked this with all AEBBA committee members inckuding the two associate members and clarified we keep to the rules.

Thanks Chrissie.

That just leaves Berks, Cambs, Kent and Northants to reply....

[BB Warrior]

Oct 21, 2014 17:38:54 GMT Chris_Sav said:

I thought this thread was to enquire how counties decide on which of their teams represent them at the finals?

Yes, that is the purpose.... could you tell us how Kent determine which team will represent them each year?

[Chris_Sav]

Oct 22, 2014 7:22:56 GMT BB Warrior said:

Yes, that is the purpose.... could you tell us how Kent determine which team will represent them each year?

In the absence of the KBBA secretary answering thus far I will give you an uneducated answer as it's too far for my league players to travel and I am thus precluded from taking part.

KBBA used to hold a KO comp, but as only the odd team in Tunbridge Wells and Medway are interested I believe they effectively alternate representation.

Sav

In Northants the winners of the Team KO become eligible for this competition.

It is fair to say, however, that we clearly struggle to motivate teams who have won a chance to play in this event to actually attend.

It is something we shall look to address in future in order to make it more attractive somehow.

[BB Warrior]

Thank you Sav and Elsie for letting us know.

That just leaves Berkshire and Cambridgeshire, although as Cambs have not sent a team to the finals since 2007 I am not expecting a reply from them....

Oct 22, 2014 10:01:04 GMT BB Warrior said:

That just leaves Berkshire and Cambridgeshire, although as Cambs have not sent a team to the finals since 2007 I am not expecting a reply from them....

Hoping to find a clue for you on Cambs by visiting their 'new' website, but even that seems to be not functioning nowadays. Going back in time, for many years they were represented by the White Swan, Connington - who were multiple League Champions.

The conclusion for the 6 single-league counties seems obvious: they send a "champion team" of some sort.

[Chris_Sav]

Sadly Cambridge have not paid their affiliation fees this year and so are effectively no longer a member county of the AEBBA

[BB Warrior]

Oct 22, 2014 10:19:25 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Sadly Cambridge have not paid their affiliation fees this year and so are effectively no longer a member county of the AEBBA

On that basis, I have crossed them off the list for the time being.

Hopefully they will return to the AEBBA fold one day.... and wouldn't it be great if we saw a team from Yorkshire enter the competition in the future as there seems to be so much enthusiasm for the game up there at the moment.

[Martin Pellett]

Oct 20, 2014 11:10:58 GMT tommo III said:

Surrey have only the one league - Redhill - and therefore the League Championship-winning side (sometimes the runners-up) are sent to represent the County.

I noted there was an exception in 1982 when White Hart Cranleigh (a team from the west of the county, playing in one of the Sussex Leagues) was allowed to enter - and won - the "Surrey zone of the All-England competition".

You've missed Cambs off your list, by the way.

Tommo the reason the White Heart at Cranliegh represented Surrey in 1982 was in thoose days we used to run a seperate competition in the summer open to all pubs in Surrey with a team just to find our representative, and you were allowed 1 guest player, I can remember going out there to play them, unfourtunatley as the numbers dropped in the league and teams stopped entering it was deceided that the Redhill League champions would represent Surrey. How it is decieded now I can't say as as you know I was in Yorkshire for ten years and have only recently come back to Surrey

Yes Martin, we are talking bygone days here, when the table operators organised the playoff heats for each county and sponsorship was involved.

Quote from Timeline 1 of 3, the year 1982:

The 10th NBBA Team Championships were played at Byfleet: The Bush, Blackbird and Thrush of Maidstone win, runners-up are the White Hart, Cranleigh (Surrey)....
White Hart A from Cranleigh are well on the way to becoming the most successful bar billiards side in the area as they prepare for the All-England finals at Byfleet next month. The team won the Worthing League’s Summer Cup competition and then the players, several of whom also make up the Alfold Social Club side, were beaten finalists in the Horsham Festival Cup and reached the final of the Billingshurst League’s Jubilee Cup. On Saturday, because they won the Surrey zone of the All-England competition, they represented the county in the Southern Counties section and won that too. On the way they beat past holders of the All-England title, the Mucky Duck of Sussex.

The NBBA-organised sponsored competitions had disappeared by the start of the 1990's.