SUSSEX AGM 2016

[JB]

The AGM was held last night.
I will put a link on here to the minutes once I have typed them up

Just to make people aware there was one Rule Change regarding the Home & Away Inter-League

The order of play will be drawn by the Captains before the start of the match.

[JB]

Could people (hopefully some of the people who voted for this change) tell me how the following issue would be resolved as I can't get my head round it.

We have all played matches where due to work commitments and other commitments players need to either arrive late for a match or leave early.

As an example Brighton B have 2 players who work shifts and quite often are working weekends. For this example I'm assuming these 2 players play in different teams

Player A has to play the first game at 7.30 to enable them to them go to work. They are drawn against Player B who can't get there until 8.30 as they are working a late shift.

Do you
1 give the game to one or other of the players? (Not really there fault)
2. Do a re-draw which would just make a joke of doing a draw in the first place.
3. Tell any players that can't be there for the whole evening that they can't play (These people have played inter-league for many years so would it be right to stop them playing)

As I said I can't work out the solution to this and as we have 2 players who do shift work which includes weekends there's a good chance this may happen

The principle of an Open Draw for H/A Interleague over the current system of captains' nominations was voted through last night, although the exact new wording for the rule in question was not defined.

This is now down to the SCBBA Secretary and/or Committee to provide the detail and embody such wording in the new issue of the Rules.

Would suggest that in any case you put something in there stipulating that captains are obliged to declare at the time of the draw any player who will be unavailable for part of the match, and that order of play can be swapped beween games 1,4 and 7 and also between 2,3,5 and 6.

What to do in the eventually of a player who wants to get away early being drawn against a late arrival would require a Committee ruling, and better to have that now rather than crossing the bridge when we come to it.

[tengu]

Aug 3, 2016 12:48:56 GMT JB said:

Could people (hopefully some of the people who voted for this change) tell me how the following issue would be resolved ...

I don't know the answer Jean, but it's an issue that happens often enough in our (Lewes) league teams, and generally it's resolved by mutual agreement between the captains. I would hope that a similar cooperation might occur in inter-league (at least in the lower divisions).

But I agree it's an issue. I should say I was ambivalent on this issue, and only narrowly came down in favour. I concede all the arguments about it being a team game, and personally I will miss the challenge of pitting my tactics against the opposing captain. But, for teams at my end of the spectrum, our problems are different to the top teams. We don't have 10 or 12 strong players competing to be picked for the team. We might have (I'll have to be careful how I phrase this ) 5 or 6 regular 'good' players, and sometimes struggle to draft in extras to make the numbers up. If these 'extras' are always being sacrificed by playing against the best opponent without the break, well, it doesn't really encourage them to turn out for us again! For me, it was that - not player averages or ranking points - that narrowly swung the decision.

[JB]

Perhaps I'm having a few blonde or perhaps I'm misunderstanding the situation in which case it would be good for someone else to put themselves forward as secretary

There was a proposal and a seconder for the rule captains nominate to the order of play is drawn. This was voted for so the new rule now reads
The order of play will be drawn by Captains before the match starts.

I would have thought that any additions or ammendments to this rule should now be proposed at the the next AGM

If it was left to a Committee to write the new rule could they not write (not saying they would and I'm certain they wouldn't)

The order of play will be drawn by Captains before the start of the match. If for any reason there are players who need to leave early or there are players who will be arriving late due to work or other commitments the order of play will be determined by the captains nominating .

Tell me if I've completely got this wrong as this is the first time I have been Secretary of any league or County

I would like to know Gandalf's reaction to Jean's last post, as he was the one who made the proposal. What does the Vice-Chairman think got voted in last night?

Not having been involved personally in home/away for several years I don't really feel so passionately as before, but thought the proposal worth seconding anyway as it deserved an airing. Which it received with very firm opposing views before being carried by 13 votes to 9.

I agree with Ric's comments, especially about the mutual co-operation of captains, and can add two further alternative solutions for Jean's problematic example:

4. Close the match off on the night with six games played and make the two play on another day;
5. Award half-a-point to each player.

But ultimately for the Committee to give their ruling on of course.

[BB Warrior]

Aug 3, 2016 15:08:36 GMT tommo III said:

The principle of an Open Draw for H/A Interleague over the current system of captains' nominations was voted through last night, although the exact new wording for the rule in question was not defined.

This is now down to the SCBBA Secretary and/or Committee to provide the detail and embody such wording in the new issue of the Rules.

Would suggest that in any case you put something in there stipulating that captains are obliged to declare at the time of the draw any player who will be unavailable for part of the match, and that order of play can be swapped beween games 1,4 and 7 and also between 2,3,5 and 6.

What to do in the eventually of a player who wants to get away early being drawn against a late arrival would require a Committee ruling, and better to have that now rather than crossing the bridge when we come to it.

Unfortunately Tommo, I don't think that it is as simple as that as neither the SCBBA Secretary or Committee have the authority to change or amend any rules so they can not provide the detail.... that can ONLY be done at an AGM or EGM.

The fact is that the following proposal was accepted at the AGM Last night with the following wording:-

May 22, 2016 23:56:20 GMT gandalf the untidy said:

AGM proposal

rule change for Interleague matches

In inter league matches the order of play will be drawn

The proposal does not identify which existing rule it is intended to replace.... or even if it is the "Home & Away" Interleague Competition or the "One Day" Interleague competition, although obviously we know that it is intended for the Home & Away as the One Day competitions are already drawn.

I assume (or at least have an intelligent guess....!) that the rule that the proposal is supposed to be included in is this one....

"MAIN" COMPETITION - HOME & AWAY BASIS
1. An Inter-League match will consist of 7 single games, the away team to have the breaks on games 2, 3, 5 & 6 and the home team to have the breaks on games 1, 4 and 7. In each of the seven games the home captain must nominate the home player first at the start of the game. Where two or more players in a team have the same surname the full Christian name shall be entered on the result card and the identity of the first named player be established before the second player be named.

.... and that the new wording should be inserted to replace the highlighted wording?

However, in the absence of any proposed amendments to the wording or any reference to players arriving late or needing to leave early then it MUST be entirely at the discretion of the opposing team if they will allow the order of play to be changed to accommodate either of these scenarios on the night of the match.

Unfortunately, there is no easy solution that the Committee are allowed to provide to the problem identified by Jean with both players not being available to play the game that they are drawn in..... so until the next AGM (unless an EGM is called) the only solution will be in the hands of the teams involved.

[BB Warrior]

Aug 3, 2016 15:58:58 GMT JB said:

I would have thought that any additions or ammendments to this rule should now be proposed at the the next AGM

Absolutely correct Jean, the ONLY way that this rule can be amended (or re-worded) would be at the AGM next year unless the Committee or TWO Member LEAGUES (not players) request and EGM as per Rule 5 of the Sussex Rules as shown below:-

5. An Extra-Ordinary General Meeting can be called by either the Committee or by two member leagues in writing to the associations Hon. Secretary who shall give leagues 21 days notice prior to the meeting.

With regards to your suggested alternative wording for the new rule that was approved....

Aug 3, 2016 15:58:58 GMT JB said:

If it was left to a Committee to write the new rule could they not write (not saying they would and I'm certain they wouldn't)

The order of play will be drawn by Captains before the start of the match. If for any reason there are players who need to leave early or there are players who will be arriving late due to work or other commitments the order of play will be determined by the captains nominating .

.... this would certainly have given the teams a good guideline to work with and would overcome most of the problems that have been identified but the SCBBA Committee does not have the authority to amend the Rules under our constitution.

[JB]

Just to clarify I wasn't trying to change what was voted for at the AGM. I have already changed the part Daves highlighted to the new rule of it being drawn in the SCBBA Rules which I will distribute soon to League Secretary's

I just wanted to know how Captains would deal with the problems that may occur.
I'm sure switching games would not be a problem. But if 2 players are drawn against each other that are not going to be there at the same time would you claim that game if do who would be entitled to claim it or would you do a redraw?
Also if playing at home if someone had to play the first game to leave for work and they were drawn against the break would the away Captain be prepared to play that game when it would mean they would have the first break game?

Obviously playing in a team where 2 players do shift work sometimes at weekends these thoughts just went through my head and I just wondered how it would work.

Jean and Dave are both absolutely right that new wordings other than those passed at the AGM cannot be embodied in the rules.
I am sure that teams will be able to live with the simple revised wording.

The committee are empowered to make rulings on situations that might occur as and when. Captains appointed are usually sensible people and some negotiations will be inevitable and hopefully be ratified by the committee. What should be avoided if at all possible is a load of extra work as good officials are difficult to come by.

Equally important is that we all sing from the same hymn sheet.

[gandalf the untidy]

Aug 3, 2016 22:33:57 GMT JB said:

Just to clarify I wasn't trying to change what was voted for at the AGM. I have already changed the part Daves highlighted to the new rule of it being drawn in the SCBBA Rules which I will distribute soon to League Secretary's

I just wanted to know how Captains would deal with the problems that may occur.
I'm sure switching games would not be a problem. But if 2 players are drawn against each other that are not going to be there at the same time would you claim that game if do who would be entitled to claim it or would you do a redraw?
Also if playing at home if someone had to play the first game to leave for work and they were drawn against the break would the away Captain be prepared to play that game when it would mean they would have the first break game?

Obviously playing in a team where 2 players do shift work sometimes at weekends these thoughts just went through my head and I just wondered how it would work.

Glad to see this getting an airing and looks like the key SCBBA personnel are sorting out the ramifications of the rule change thoughtfully

Congrats to Stuart Carruthers on becoming the New SCBBA Chairman and Many Thanks to Jean for taking on the Secretary Duties I'm sure both appointments will benefit the association and all who are involved in Bar Billiards in Sussex

[bigtj]

Surely as was the case years ago in both inter-league and the Worthing league when we played as drawn it was a gentlemens agreement between the players to as what was agreed when the draw took place but someone or another needed to be accommodated, it is correct to add anything to the rule voted on would have to be an AGM or EGM, but being adults which I hope we all are and also being involved in what has always been a sporting game we can see how it pans out this season and make amendments or rule changes for next season.

I for one voted against but my personal feelings are not the issue the majority at the AGM voted the proposal in and we need to suck it and see>

[BB Warrior]

Aug 3, 2016 22:55:22 GMT tommo III said:

Jean and Dave are both absolutely right that new wordings other than those passed at the AGM cannot be embodied in the rules.
I am sure that teams will be able to live with the simple revised wording.

The committee are empowered to make rulings on situations that might occur as and when. Captains appointed are usually sensible people and some negotiations will be inevitable and hopefully be ratified by the committee. What should be avoided if at all possible is a load of extra work as good officials are difficult to come by.

Equally important is that we all sing from the same hymn sheet.

I agree with you entirely Tommo..... although the "simple revised wording" will NOT appear in the rule as that has not been agreed at the AGM.

Hopefully common sense will prevail if the situation does happen during the season, most of the Leagues within Sussex (7 out of 9) already play their matches as drawn and I know that (in most cases) players that arrive late or have to leave early are accommodated on the night by both teams without any problems.

The Committee do have the authority to make rulings in the event that a problem can not be resolved between the teams on the night, however it should be remembered that one side or the other usually feel hard done by if that proves necessary.

[Ros]

Speaking as one who voted for the proposal and also as a captain of one of the 7 of 9 leagues that draw the order of play...

In Mid Sussex we operate a 'gentleman's agreement' for players who have to leave early or late (or indeed, need to play at any specific time (Spud has been known to play in his work break and then return to work!) - I don't think we have a rule.

The captain whose player has a timing problem will declare this before the draw is done and the opposing captain will just say 'no problem' or words to that effect. Where possible, the order of breaks will stay the same. Usually the captain who is unaffected will choose which games get swapped around (eg 1 and 3 or 1 and 5) after the draw has been done.

If both teams have a player with differing timing problems and unfortunately they get drawn against each other, then the captains negotiate the best possible compromise - usually by playing them in the middle game, even if that means altering the order of the breaks. I don't ever remember a problem that wasn't able to be resolved by sensible negotiations - but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I have also seen this sensible negotiation take place in Lewes and Horsham league games, as well as in drawn cup games in Worthing.

The key issue, as I see it, is that the captains should declare any problems before the draw is done.

[BB Warrior]

I have just sent an email to the other members of the SCBBA Committee with a suggestion giving some "guidelines" that the Committee send out to teams of how we could overcome the problems that have been raised here on the forum.

Once these have been considered and any amendments included, I have suggested that a statement should be provided by SCBBA to assist teams to overcome some of the problems that may occur on the night of a match and this will probably be both shown here on the Forum and also sent to Captains when the Fixture Lists are sent out.

Until such time as the "guidelines" are agreed and released, I would advise that any comments above in this thread or purely the personal opinion of the individuals and these comments / viewpoints on how the rule should be interpreted may not be the same as those of the SCBBA Committee.

[BB Warrior]

Aug 5, 2016 8:28:45 GMT BB Warrior said:

I have just sent an email to the other members of the SCBBA Committee with a suggestion giving some "guidelines" that the Committee send out to teams of how we could overcome the problems that have been raised here on the forum.

Once these have been considered and any amendments included, I have suggested that a statement should be provided by SCBBA to assist teams to overcome some of the problems that may occur on the night of a match and this will probably be both shown here on the Forum and also sent to Captains when the Fixture Lists are sent out.

Until such time as the "guidelines" are agreed and released, I would advise that any comments above in this thread or purely the personal opinion of the individuals and these comments / viewpoints on how the rule should be interpreted may not be the same as those of the SCBBA Committee.

Still awaiting responses from some members of the Committee, replies so far have offered different ideas as to whether the Committee should offer "guidance" or if the teams should be left to try to sort out any problems on the night with any problems then being referred to the Committee after the match.

[BB Warrior]

Firstly, I must apologise to Jean for not putting these on the Forum sooner after she sent them to me a week ago.....

Here are the minutes of the Sussex AGM 2016....

AGM 2016.docx (17.57 KB)

[StuC]

Aug 11, 2016 22:33:58 GMT BB Warrior said:

Aug 5, 2016 8:28:45 GMT BB Warrior said:

I have just sent an email to the other members of the SCBBA Committee with a suggestion giving some "guidelines" that the Committee send out to teams of how we could overcome the problems that have been raised here on the forum.

Once these have been considered and any amendments included, I have suggested that a statement should be provided by SCBBA to assist teams to overcome some of the problems that may occur on the night of a match and this will probably be both shown here on the Forum and also sent to Captains when the Fixture Lists are sent out.

Until such time as the "guidelines" are agreed and released, I would advise that any comments above in this thread or purely the personal opinion of the individuals and these comments / viewpoints on how the rule should be interpreted may not be the same as those of the SCBBA Committee.

Still awaiting responses from some members of the Committee, replies so far have offered different ideas as to whether the Committee should offer "guidance" or if the teams should be left to try to sort out any problems on the night with any problems then being referred to the Committee after the match.

Hi

The SCBBA committee has voted that no guidelines are needed in regards of the new Inter League Home and Away rules. The rules reads:

"The order of play to be drawn by the Captains before the start of play."

We would however ask captains to be flexible where possible in the order of play and to try to get all matches played on the night, with any disputes or complaints about use of the rule or outcome referred in writing to the committee as soon as possible after the match.

Stuart