taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 1, 2016 9:11:11 GMT
Hello
I've been loitering for years and finally decided to join this past week.
I used to play in the Sudbury and Newmarket league - least i think it was called soething like that? - twice, the first time was in the early 80's and the second time was the early 90s. I played for the Tharp Arms, Chippenham in CAMBRIDGESHIRE and the pub had also had a table in the early 70s too and the plaque over the table read: 'Knocker's winning shot 1974'. as the Suffolk/Cambs border is legendary for its shape in the newmarket region i can't be arsed to tell you where the tables were but we had at times: saxon street Reindeer Kirtling Beehive Dalham Afflek Arms The Marquis of Granby, Newmarket The Snailwell George & Dragon (Cambs) the above were in the North and then in the South we traveled to The Lavenham Angel Poslingfield Shepherd & Dog Stansfield Compasses Denston Plumber's Arms Lidgate Star A and B team
there were NO SUDBURY teams whatsoever - none, zilch. that or we simply had different leagues?
we played for a short time at the Flenston greyhound???
we travelled the furthest along with the G & D to matches. I was quite good and I got the leagues highest break-in-a-game for two seasons with about 2,000+ and that was on an away table both times. But i always pushed my luck! even the second time!
I loved the sheer variety of tables, that was awesome! everyone agreed that the Tharp's table was the best table to play on. it had a lovely thick beize on it and the balls didn't runaway from you.
it was an Alfred Sams table and the first table had a lovely symetry to it, it seemed wider and if you cut a nice 50 the object ball would roll just past the skittle into the 100 and THAT is symetry!
the second table, ten years later was also a Sams table - we insisted on it! but it never played the same? no symetry.
we then had a table in the pub some 4 years ago till 2 years ago and again the angles just didn't work and i forget who made it but it was a 3-pin converted....no good (not to my eyes anyway!)
the trouble with the game is that unless you are shown "the" shots, you can be pheqin hopeless at it! there is nothing to it till someone shows you the shots!
so please tell me which Alfred sams table was so nice back in the early 80s?
I'd like to ask this question.
thanks
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2016 12:00:05 GMT
Hi Taffy, Welcome to the Forum. Good to hear from someone else (other than Daveuk1) who had an involvement with 4-Pin 30 or 40 years ago. Much of the history of bar billiards/snookerette in the Fens region is obscure, but fascinating nonetheless. We have however been able to confirm the former existence of the league on the Cambs/Suffolk border, thus: Just been clearing out the junk from my loft and came across a couple of boxes full of old bar billiards trophies from the 80's. Most are for the Sudbury and District league but I've found two from the Newmarket & Bury St Edmunds league, one for league champs and the other for highest break, so proof the old Newmarket league did really exist and for what it's worth the picture on the emblem shows a four pin table, which is what I'm sure I remember playing. Dave 4-Pin is still alive and well in and around Sudbury, which has its own Board on here, with Daveuk1 a prolific contributor. Travel westwards and the lines become a bit blurred. "Cambridgeshire" is primarily a 3-Pin county and used to compete at national level until a few years ago. There is no league play in Cambridge itself, however, with the league really being concentrated in the old Huntingdonshire. The Isle of Ely (particularly Wisbech) on the other hand seems to be part of a 4-Pin enclave which stretches northwards, skirting Peterborough and over the Lincs border, with evidence found of the existence of Gedney Hill and District Snookerette League. This does however seem to be casually-run organisation with no apparent wish to compete with or establish contact with other 4-pin leagues. From your comments about the Tharp Arms, it sounds as if you favoured the wider table (36" o.d) which is what 3-Pinners play on; Sams Brothers also made a narrower version (34" o.d) which was intended for Snookerette. A good game of 3-Pin is virtually impossible to play on a narrow table, whereas 4-Pin (much less intense) can be played on either ! tommo
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 1, 2016 18:08:33 GMT
yes it was the Newmarket and BSE league, that sounds right. weird how the game has crept south like a fog? I reckon all these things come down to some-one individual really putting in the effort. someone who believes!
do you have weekend competitions with a couple/three four tables in one place?
we played with red ball at the back white at the front a red skittle and three black skittles over the 100 and 50. voluntary 200 at the end which only 30% took.
we had the finals at the Kirtling Beehive once in about 1994 and the couple that ran the league had a French Surname. In the individual finals, Our Tharp lad- Andy Pollard - made it to the final, anyway The lad from Saxon Street Reindeer was mustard and proceeded to take Andy to the cleaners! Andy was just putting balls on the top for him to pocket!
Anyway, old Louis the League secretary was scoring the game but he keeled over on the table! the game was stopped and Louis was checked over and parked in the corner. The game had been stopped and upon restarting it, Andy smashed him and won the Individual final!
The Tharp team was a young team and with the table being so nice we all went for our shots! It only worked 50% of the time. fun though! everyone else was old and from fast tables, everything was a safe 10-20-30....yawn! LOL!!!
if you know your shots it is an awesome game. it's just that the last two tables in the Tharp - nothing had symmetry.
let's say for a moment Tommo, that I don't recall the widths and we start again OK? which Sams table has a nice symmetry to it for high scoring shots?
I'll ask my mate who played in the early 70s and the early 80s.
regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2016 18:26:19 GMT
let's say for a moment Tommo, that I don't recall the widths and we start again OK? which Sams table has a nice symmetry to it for high scoring shots? I'll ask my mate who played in the early 70s and the early 80s. regards Taffy Well, I'd say the answer to that question would have to be the Bay Horse at Sudbury. docs.google.com/document/d/1AOvik0beejqM8bWSye0r9fsH-JfA2qoEAcJPl29qkk0/pubThe scene of the (so far) one and only friendly International, where England took a drubbing on the narrow table and the symmetry was good enough for Daveuk1 to win with three consecutive shots into the 200 hole.
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 4, 2016 18:45:43 GMT
Just having had a chat with my friend 'Alfie' Noakes we went through them there good ol' days and had a really good laugh about them. we reckon the Nmkt & BSE League was run for a few years by a couple and the man's name was Rene (thus the french connection i spoke of) he may have been a landlord himself and we think it was somewhere in Kirtling!
Another name that came up was 'Brookesy', he could tell the tale of tales and reckoned he'd played BB for England which always gave us a chuckle! Anyway, he played over at the Hundon 'Rose & Crown' and ended up seeing quite a lot of the landlord's buxom brunette landlady wife.
It was on the front page of 'The Sun; you know the type of headline: 'Buxom Barmaid Breaks off with Brookesy' type of thing. great story and they are still an item I believe?
As for the table, yup, it was a WIDE Alfred Sams that we played on. you sent the object ball down between the 20 and the 10, let it come back, off the side and into the 50 pocket. In the meantime the Cue ball skirted round the back of the 50 skittle and if you were lucky you'd earnt 150 off a break shot. great table.....
If your Jelkes are anything like those wide Sams I'd be pleased but when we played the beauty of it was that all the tables were different and the bad thing is that all the tables were too fast and favoured too much caution.
My GF, Alison and I are off to Sudbury tomorrow lunchtime and we're going to pick up a few games in the pubs (and a bit of the Rugby I hope!).
thanks for all your help!
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2016 19:41:25 GMT
Well, good luck on your visit and the Bay Horse is definitely a good prospect for a warm welcome.
A pity the Tharp Arms no longer has bar billiards - it sounded a good place to go for a game. If I were ever up Wisbech way I'd be dropping in on the Bell Inn at Murrow which displays a good looking table on its website.
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 4, 2016 23:38:10 GMT
Yes, that was on the cards last week but the table was covered because a band was on. I think they feared a cue through the drums on the back swing!
regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 0:14:20 GMT
Also in and around Wisbech you have: - Black Bear, Walsoken
- Swan, Parsons Drove
- Butchers Arms, Parsons Drove
- Six Ringers, Leverington
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 5, 2016 10:53:09 GMT
Alfie, also reminded me of a player at the Denston Plumbers Arms who had to remove his 'hook' and used to put a cross of wood (rather like a 'X' rest in snooker) on his arm instead. He used to 'lock & load' and was ready to go! One of my mates even met his Wife 100% due to Bar Billiards. The Lidgate Star #3 got her shots potted by the Tharp Arms #2!!! LOL!!!!
as we might say round here: it was a grut laugh!
Taffy
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 6, 2016 19:03:51 GMT
Also in and around Wisbech you have: - Black Bear, Walsoken
- Swan, Parsons Drove
- Butchers Arms, Parsons Drove
- Six Ringers, Leverington
Yesterday I took Ali and we visited 4 tables in the Sudbury area. As the Bay Horse is on the way into Sudbury from the Bury St. Edmunds end: we went there first, we had two lovely games in a great pub, we then had two more in The Brewery Tap, then The Saracen's Head and finally at Red House at Stanningfield. the last three tables were nigh on identical so i'm guessing whoever made one made them all. they were broad and 37" external diameter. The Bay Horse is, as you know, a little narrower at 31" ID or 34" OD? not sure who makes their table. I started with 1200,1250, then 50, 1,350, then 1,600 and 1,600. I finished with a 2,000 and about 1,200. Today we attempted to keep it going so after watching some midday rugby union we set off up into the Fens this time. The Bell Inn, Murrow = recent landlord change, landlord wants food so he removes the table between league games. a customer put me onto: The Swan in Parson's Drove. So we went in: The Swan removed the table 3 weeks ago. The Butchers was closed (by now 4pm) We went on to The Bridge Inn at Wisbech St. Mary and she removed the table a couple of years ago. The Landlady called ahead to the 6 Ringers in Leverington - no reply (mid-afternoon now) we went and checked the Black Bear in Walsoken, Wisbech but they were closed by 5pm. I'll go back and try out the Butchers, the 6 Ringers and the Black Bear sometime. A guy in the Bell Inn, Murrow said that there is a table in a social club to the North of Wisbech and a 'Steve' runs the league. There you go! Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 20:46:42 GMT
Hi Taffy, Those are respectable scores and I reckon you'd find the 5th East Anglian Open a good test and an enjoyable day out. I haven't missed one yet : If all goes to plan there should be an entry form for next years E A four pin open attached. If you dont want to send a cheque or cash you can pay by bank transfer but I still need to confirm our account details and will let you know ASAP View AttachmentThe second half of your post gives a good status update on the Fenland (Gedney Hill Snookerette) League, so I will quote it on the appropriate thread as it looks as if there is some updating to do. Rgds, tommo
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 7, 2016 20:50:21 GMT
Very kind of you Tommo, but Ali is just picking up the game and spent most of her time picking up the balls for me to put down. I like to look at the average for a game between two players. 2,000+ in 4-pin is a good score no matter which way the result went . That's just my honest opinion. I thought all 4 tables including the first one at the Bay Horse played better than 3/4 of the tables back in the day. you could give them a good slap and I think in 8 games the cue ball only ever came back over the D once.
As I say, i will make a pleasant winters session out of going to the other three locations I hope. the Black Bear (BTW) is up as 'to let'.
look Tommo, how come you have never taken over somewhere for the weekend, stuck 4 tables in a pub, camper van'd the car park and BBQ outside and had a bloody good festival? or have you!
regards
Taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Nov 7, 2016 21:55:51 GMT
Hi Taffy Its a shame I didnt know you were coming down to Sudbury, we could of met up for a beer or three and a couple of games.
I am surprised that you say the tables were good as you probably picked two of the less favoured tables in our league, the brewery tap and the red house, both are supreme tables and the one at the red house has a wooden top, you could of gone to the north street tavern in town or the five bells or the brook in Cornard.
In the Sudbury league, obviously four pin a score of 2000 will win you most games.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2016 23:59:13 GMT
Hi Taffy, Nice idea of yours but not very practical to do as a sole venture: tables cost between £40 and £50 each to hire and to try and recoup the cost through selling ice-creams or hot dogs, well a trading licence would be needed for starters.
But in our little world of bar billiards we lead a charmed life and there is always something interesting going on or something new to look forward to. Something of the atmosphere you have described can be obtained by entering any of the County Opens which are held throughout the year, where there's all-day competition, all-day drinking and we have our own regular catering chef.
These regular events are held in turn at Didcot, Sudbury, Redhill, Guernsey, Horsham, Tonbridge, High Wycombe, Northampton, Reading and Jersey and are well documented on here.
Events are also staged down a level within each individual county, and then at grassroots (normal league match) level.
The fact that the game still exists at all is a triumph in itself with all the changes the pub trade has gone through: we estimate there are now about 500 venues remaining in the UK whereas in its heyday there were several thousand tables and every pub in town had one and you had to queue up to get a game.
But that's for 3-Pin of course.
For 4-Pin, the spiritual home is Sudbury & District, and certain of us are trying to foster some interest by sending emissaries to the Bay Horse. They have received challenges from north (Northampton) and south (Eastbourne). The first-ever East Anglian Open was in Norwich in 2013 and was a fabulous event coupled with a cider festival. (Their pubs are worth a visit by the way). Since then Sudbury have held three Opens, matching Norwich for charisma and there was also a trial one in Northampton back in August this year which was equally good.
The history of the 4-Pin version of the game is of great interest to me and I have looked up all the pubs you mentioned existed in the Newmarket League and only a few are still going to this day.
Rgds, tommo
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 8, 2016 9:38:31 GMT
Hello
Dave, back in the day, the worst table was at the Snailwell G & D, our 'sister village' in the North here. you merely had to tap the ball, it flew up the table, came back off the top and broke your thumb still pinned to the leather! you couldn't do ANYTHING. for young lads at the Tharp, it was a nightmare and a gauranteed 7-2 to the Dragon or some such. so anything with a bit of angle in it and shots you can 'go for' is welcome!
The cloth at the Red house is being swapped out today (Tuesday) says the landlady. Apparently it was meant to be done two weeks ago but she was out when the table men arrived. I concede that the D was a mess, and the top of the table was very, very slow but that was a change to me. After the Bay Horse the tables were relatively consistant and if you are going for big shots as I tend to do, you need table knowledge ASAP!
Also, another pleasure was the way the mushrooms stayed up and you could rattle them a bit. With skittles it seems to me, they are gone straight away, of course we can contest how close to a hole they are. back in the day, they were delicate skittles and close to the hole, any ball going around the edge and yet still going down still knocked a peg over - very unfair!! these mushrooms don't! One thing i missed was that our Sams tables had the 4 notches in the mouth of the hole and that meant you could get on with the game! why hasn't everyone gone to that system?
Dave, we'll come back to Sudbury sometime and I'd be delighted to meet you and look at the other three tables as well. We liked the Saracen's Head and the food there that much that I would add that in as well, the food was truly excellent and you 'made' your own sidedish. The Sarries stays on the agenda!!!
Come to think of it Tommo, our Southern most table had the oldest and wisest team and they were a tough nut to crack, that was the Lavenham Angel and a look on the map will show you that they are/were close to Sudbury and I recall them saying how they had a Wednesday night game and some of them played on a Tue/Thu in the Sudbury League so yes, i guess the Sudbury League was about the, it's all coming back to me now.
Just for the record, all the tables back in the day had skittles, not one had mushrooms, and you had a red over the 200 and three blacks on the other three holes and there were no white skittles. Also, you only lost all your score for the match if you knocked the 200 skittle over.
I see you like to mention the history Tommo and I come from Fordham and drink in Chippenham. Educated in Soham and with all my chums played rugby for Ely and not Newmarket so i know the Newmarket and Ely area well. Ely pubs back in the day did have a table or two but they were all three pin. I'd need to get hold of my old mate 'Skep' if I knew where he was? Skep was keen on the 3-pin and we would convert the table between the two for a bit-of-a-challenge! he'd know the Ely area.
But surely all these things come down to the people who rent out the fruit machines and space invaders? they do the pool tables as well and would probably have handled bar billiards tables as well. I have a friend at Kennett (between Newmarket and BSE) who runs 'mac automatics' and they have been going 50 years. His name is Stuart 'Knuckles' MacLaren. if you ask him about Rugby, as his nickname implies, he wasn't there and he didn't do it! LOL!!!!!!
But Stuart might know what tables they rented out back in the day? I'll catch up with him some time.
regards
Taffy
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 13, 2016 23:30:10 GMT
just to say that this evening, I went back to the Wisbech area in an attempt to visit 3 tables. the first was the Black Bear at Walsoken on the edge of town. I walked in with a fella and looked around to see a 4-pin 37" Alfred Sams.....my day was made! Nirvana!!!
so having ordered a pint I asked if 'porky' played, which he did and so I treated him to a game. the pub cue was about 12mm across and flat...not ideal but anyway, we got going. Porky showed me straight away that the red is the object ball....weird! at some point he mentioned that the ball had to be put in the middle of the D. then he told me that you lose 100 points on a skittle down on the break or a 50 skittle over. He then said that you lose EVERYTHING when the 100 falls.
interestingly, the numbers at the baulk end had been scratched out as if someone had agreed at some point that it should be 10-20-30-20-10. also but it was sadly 30-20-10-20-30 just like 3-pin, if a ball sits on a skittle spot at the end of break it goes down the hole. in my day it went back along the top of the table.
I won with 1,800 to what would have been 1,500 but for the 200 down for Porky.
what did I make of their rules? read on: red as an object ball = that means the red goes up the table for a corner pocket. if it were a 10 it would be an injustice. you want the red to go in the 50 = reward skill/danger/desire 30-20-10-20-30 = the skill should be to play the cue ball off the INSIDE of the object ball and find a hidden 30 in the middle. also, if you get a white between the 30 (in the middle)-20 you have to squeeze the red inside the white = reward = 30 x2=60. this way, you are always playing the red outwards when hitting the object ball....no good ball in the centre of the D at all times= no danger, can't take the big shots, sure just hitting a ball on the middle line is now a skill but we want to see the skill of potting a ball not touching a ball! losing 100 when.....I can live with that. now the really stupid rule: you lose all your score when you knock the 100 over = can't agree, a very bad rule. getting a ball out between 10-20 (as is now) and back in the 100 - not enough reward, I go for the 200 here if I can but who is going to bother with that rule?
so i thought most rule changes to my old Nmkt & BSE league days were wrong but liveable, the worst ones were 'lose the full score for knocking over the 100' - sorry, no! and 'using only the centre of the D'.
like this, no youngster is going to want to play the game. the games about big shots and big balls - and the balls aren't on the table.!
anyway, thanks to Porky, he reckons he has played for the Black Bear since the early 70s and had just 3 years off. the captain has played straight through..... jeeez!! the landlord reckoned that a guy comes from Wales every 6-months for the rental, the tables are under his jurisdiction having been with 'a cue above the rest' until 6 or so years ago.(not sure about that name???).
I then went to the league leaders table at the Butchers Arms in Parsons Drove. the table was another 37" Alfred Sams and like the Black Bear, they also have holes with the 4 cutaways in the hole entries (yipeee!) and they run one red and three black skittles-just as I recall them.
I went past the 6 Ringers at Levington and The Bell Inn, Murrel again but both were closed by 9.45pm.
I hope to enter that East Anglian Competition next March.
as for the Sams tables, again, how I remember them and just absolutely brilliant! what i like is the spread of the top 5 holes so that you can work the 200 hole and the 100 hole. the other tables bunch the 5 holes together and you can't make these shots. regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 0:04:39 GMT
Hi Taffy, Good to read of your return to Wisbech and that you were able to enjoy some 4-Pin and even challenge one of the locals. The game can only benefit from someone with your enthusiasm and by entering the East Anglian Open you will meet others of the same ilk - i.e who are not afraid to go for their shots !
Another adventure you may wish to consider some time is a foray westwards into Wellingborough. Here there is a 4-Pin enclave surrounded by the remainder of Northants which is 3-Pin territory. You may find the tables there a bit more of a challenge, though, as from the pictures we've seen they are longer and narrower.
tommo
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 14, 2016 13:01:10 GMT
cheers Tommo well I can see a weekend in Norwich or Wellingborough in the future yep! But I can also see me going over to the Black Bear in Walsoken for a regular game too! I live twixt Sudbury and Wisbech (time wise) but I shall play on Alfred's tables as a first choice. as a borderline Fenland Swamp Donkey I fit in "rut wael" and 50p a game!
how can you go for your shots though when you lose your whole score on 2 of the 4 skittles? I don't get that? In my day everyone was knocking them in a 100 off the top cushion , I mean the 100 skittle is in the middle of the bloody game?
the 100 shot requires the cue ball over on the edge of the D and the shots requiring the whole D are: 1) red cue ball skims down the side of two skittles (200 &100) 3/4 ball on a white and goes in the central 30 for double that @60. skill!!! 2) a ball is just infield of the 20. cue ball hits 3/4 ball, object ball back and in the 100. skill!
oh well! "My" leagues rules went when the league went....! never mind!
regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 14:37:51 GMT
Hi Taffy, Well as a 3-Pinner of 47 years standing who only discovered the wonders and delights of 4-Pin in 2013, I'm probably not the right person to discuss rule variations with..... The Sudbury League's Rules are however generally accepted by all and are in force for the East Anglian Opens. You can download a set here: www.sdbbl.co.uk/page/rules.htmlMost people would agree with you though that having whole score penalties for skittles covering both 200 AND 100 holes would be far too severe and that is not applied anywhere else these days to our knowledge. tommo
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 14, 2016 17:30:13 GMT
How interesting Tommo..... very similar to the Nmkt & BSE league and pleased to see them as better than the Wisbech league. so the N & B league was right next door to the Sudbury League and yet there were different rules for both.
The rules are nearly identical, just the swopping of the red and white when cueing off and also these mushrooms v skittles, we had no mushrooms just skittles and they would fall over so easily. I prefer skittles, the pace has to be j-u-s-t right. Everything is better about the Sudbury rules bar none compared to the wisbech ones!
They may have had the same rules 20 years ago and somebody put a great deal of thought into the cue balls movements as compared the object ball.
the games in safe hands!
regards
Taffy
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taffy
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Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 18, 2016 9:08:06 GMT
Hi Taffy, Good to read of your return to Wisbech and that you were able to enjoy some 4-Pin and even challenge one of the locals. The game can only benefit from someone with your enthusiasm and by entering the East Anglian Open you will meet others of the same ilk - i.e who are not afraid to go for their shots ! Another adventure you may wish to consider some time is a foray westwards into Wellingborough. Here there is a 4-Pin enclave surrounded by the remainder of Northants which is 3-Pin territory. You may find the tables there a bit more of a challenge, though, as from the pictures we've seen they are longer and narrower. tommo Hello Tommo from what I can understand, a long narrow table ruins the 3 pin break or Oxford shot etc right? but what about skittles instead of mushrooms? surely during this oxford break, one of the 2-4-6-8 balls is going to knock a lightweight skittle over? I found that sudbury use Mushrooms yet my league was just north at B.S.E and yet we were on skittles with the red at the back as cue ball. the wisbech league is on skittles and it is meant to be an old league...... it's just that I love the wide table for the use of the balls coming out of the top BACK up the table. but I'm getting the picture that the 3-pin boys have just transferred their game straight over to the 4-pin game because the wide table is still the right shape. I was going to buy a table this weekend and get it 36-37" wide but now panic is setting in. the beauty of the 4 pin game is that you can do the oxford break for so long but after that it is a devil to get two balls down at once in order to start the break shot again. its the variety.... regards Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 11:46:00 GMT
Hi Taffy, With the emergence of 4-Pin to the national stage in 2013 (thanks to the Norwich 4-Pin B-B league, which had only been in existence itself for a couple of years) attempts have been made to compartmentalize the game's versions, ie: 3-Pin wide tables and pegs, 4-Pin narrow tables and mushrooms. 3-Pin has been holding national events since the early 1980s and the AEBBA owns a complete set of championship tables which incidentally are Jelkes. East Anglia, seen as the spiritual home of 4-Pin, have had to make do with the kit available, and mushrooms were in short supply to begin with but Sudbury have since invested in brand new sets for use in the Opens. Yes mushrooms are much sturdier than the rather spindly-looking pegs shown on the Bell Murrow pictures. The tables, well all Opens so far have used the AEBBA's wide Jelkes tables which has put the local players at a disadvantage as 3-Pinners are used to them and 4-Pinners aren't ! As far as we can make out, both Sudbury Bar Billiards League and Wisbech (4-Pin is known as Snookerette in the Fens) have a hotch-potch of table types, even including the horrible modern Supreme tables. But Sudbury have plans to standardise over to Narrow SAMS tables and are purchasing good ones when they come up on eBay. Once they have enough to cover a future Open (not yet !) that will even up the playing field. As you have discerned, wide tables allow what we now call the Eastbourne break (start with two 50s, squeezing one round the back of the peg) and anyone who can master that will do well in Opens, with Nigel Senior taking it to the extreme: You had to be there ! Every 4-Pin Open throws up some different kinds of delight and surprises. This year indeed belonged to Sav, whose previous successes have been Plate-orientated ! He played super stuff all day, and beat Milko in the Qr finals and BigJimSilverFox in the Semis. Phil Osborne at last managed what he has been threatening for some years: a place in the Final, well deserved having put out Nigel (more about him in a minute) and later Curt in the Semis. Good to see Sudbury with three - yes, three - in the last eight, sadly for them they all went out at that stage. Highlight of the day was an awesome score by Nigel in one game of 14,500. Started with 5k and finished with 9.5k, playing the 'Eastbourne way'.Many, many thanks to the organisers, every sort of comfort was provided, top-up coffee, filled jacket potatoes, 4 barrels of beer that Daveuk1 had managed to blag........and cake !!!!! Once again a fantastic day, and looking forward to next year already ! tommo PS Well done, Foxy : a star is born ! 3 shots one way, then 3 the other way and then back ! Of course, only using 2 pockets for a whole game counters the charge that 3-Pin is boring at the top level as the players only use 3 pockets (the 50/50 break three times, then leaving one ball up and then the Oxford split (= ball in the 50 and ball in the 100 for the break back again). Good if you can do it but not exactly enjoyable if you are on the receiving end ! Regards, tommo
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 18, 2016 14:20:06 GMT
interesting! you can of course work on changing a wide table to somewhat narrower i presume.
you should play the Newmarket shot: you get all the skittles all at once!
I get the feeling that more effort should be made to run skittles on a wide table as there are so many out there and see just how brutal people really think they can be to them.
in my day, a ball running around the mouth knocked skittle over so you had to reduce the speed and hope that a ball that caught a mouth disappeared downwards quickly. and most good tables had those 4 'breakers' that killed the ball fast. we were as often pleased with them so that we could get the red back ASAP!!!!
while appreciate where all this is going - and logically with the sudbury set up it is only one area and happens to be the one that survived! my league didn't! history is written by the victor-blah! blah!
but my point to you was and is that the Nmkt & BSE league was whatever age and it went like this wide tables eastbourne shot delicate skittles close to the holes can't nudge them so much - lose your break breakers in the mouth of pocket so it is possible to wobble one but not 'run around the rim' lose your bottle leave one up - or two! suddenly it takes 2-3 minutes to clear the top and get the eastbourne shot going again!
with balls on the table and on the wrong side of the 50 the top board becomes useful to get them from the other direction. nice gaps between the top 5 holes helpes this suddenly a reverse 100 and 200 are good scorers.
now this is another way of getting to the same place as the narrow tables. THAT is all I'm saying. weird how I'd only ever seen mushrooms on a 3-pin table yet the two are perceived as the other way around? BTW, skittles don't break? they aren't delicate....perhaps i misunderstood you?
ho-hum
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 15:05:59 GMT
interesting! you can of course work on changing a wide table to somewhat narrower i presume. I don't think anyone would ever attempt that as good standard width tables have higher value: narrow ones probably came about because back in the 1930s someone ordered a batch of Italian slates to the wrong dimension and it was more practical to fit them rather than reject them (this is just my guess). Sav has been known to buy tables from the continent and 'convert them' though: French tables have ornate woodwork but a missing a hole - the 200 - so Sav drills one out ! in my day, a ball running around the mouth knocked skittle over so you had to reduce the speed and hope that a ball that caught a mouth disappeared downwards quickly. and most good tables had those 4 'breakers' that killed the ball fast. we were as often pleased with them so that we could get the red back ASAP!!!! Known as "Easidrop pockets", with four bars round them to help the ball down. I have only known these on Riley tables, which were banned in the Sussex leagues fifty or more years ago as they made the game too easy. There used to be one at the Nelson, Horsham. BTW, skittles don't break? they aren't delicate....perhaps i misunderstood you? Delicate (= easily knockoverable) rather than brittle. A flat base gives stability but I've seen some which are tapered at the base and a tiny breeze would blow 'em over. And mushrooms come in all shapes and sizes, I own five sets from when we ran a summer league and they are of varying degrees of stability: the spindliest ones used to come out when we played Eastbourne !
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 18, 2016 17:13:21 GMT
Nice one Tommo but I like easy drop. once round the top and the skittle is over so if you were lucky the easydrops grabbed the ball before it got round to the skittle.
question: how can the easy drop make the game easier? i mean, the ball is either going in, or it isn't and a wobbling ball is dead time to anyone!
i think delicate skittles are just what the eastbourne lot need at sudbury next march!!!! I'll bring a set, upset dave! LOL!!!!
regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 19:31:53 GMT
Depends how fast the table is...I play mainly on SAMS tables and some can be described as "whippy" ie. the ball can go round the pocket a few times and then whip out at the last minute. Also the quality of the cups can have a bearing. Most of us prefer bakelite to the red plastic.
You'd like the Jersey tables, they're made by Burroughs & Watts and seem to have shallow bakelight cups, the ball dropping more or less immediately.
Besides, an old player once told me, "if you hit the ball into the middle of the pocket, boy, it'll go down !"
However, I take your point, as with 4-Pin some of the shots have to be angled into half a pocket (especially the 50s and 100s) so choosing the right spin to impart can be paramount.
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 19, 2016 11:13:55 GMT
went to the Black Bear at Walsoken again last night. AFTER I'd been to Lynn to look at a non-descript table. the table appears to be a pre-war Jelkes 37" with round legs but the recent owners have been thugs. all the cups are bakolite but are 3mm down the holes. table played Ok but the petina was brutal in places. wants lots of work!
at the BB we met the Landlord who was gobsmacked that we would come from Soham for a game: "ah it's the Alfred Sams table" I said. he has just sold a restaurant he owns in Wisbech and is now concentrating on the Black Bear. place was heaving. His Pub and the restaurant sponsor the snookerette League (I know, you thought I was waffling....well I was but...LOL!), so maybe the Pub-Sponsor-League isn't doing so badly!
Ali put away some lovely shots, some 200s off the top. when I told her about the Eastbourne break she just said: "boring". she is of course right, and I'm afraid it makes 4-pin as dull as 3-pin if this happened all the time. for mere mortals it isn't a problem though and it is a shot of great skill when done and you get a real sense of achievement.
I did a 'new years eve cruise' to Jersey for three years on the trot (or does that make it 4), arriving on Jersey shitfaced at 6am I went in the nearest pub for a 'hairofthedog' and saw a bar billiard table, I offered someone a game and got right royally stuffed mainly because I couldn't stand up. so he put £20 down for a second game and do you know what...I SOBERED UP... I smashed him. took his £20. can I just thank Messrs Smirnov and Angers & Stewart for their part in my victory!
I'll tell you what Tommo, I've already told you the best 2-3 bloody good stories about Bar Billiards you'll ever hear I do know! LOL!!!!!
Don't be surprised if I don't do something quite dramatic Tommo with regards BB in my manor. you never know!
regards
Taffy
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 20, 2016 19:12:03 GMT
on a miserable cold and wet Sunday, I got Ali to agree to our second visit to Sudbury, I know she was OD'ing on it by now and she did a few upright shots and she only had one pace of shot and you know what that was!
we went to The Brook at Gt. Cornard first, a sad little pub really but with a 'Supreme' tucked neatly away in the corner. the Cues were 15mm and flat-tipped but the table ran straight and true. we had two reasonably good games on it. Interestingly, in the corner was a runners up sheild/trophy for the Sudbury League being second the last time it appears to have been run in 1993. The sheild was the inter-region 4-pin and dated from about 1980 as I recall with 'South Holland' winning it for 5/6 at the beginning and other winners were 'Sudbury' and Newmarket....noi mention of BSE there at all! I think the year was about 1989 approx and I was playing then and uit sure as hell was the Nmkt & BSE League. I think that there was one other winner on it but I have forgotten!
we then went 0.5 miles back into Sudbury to 'The Five Bells' where we found a nonm-league team with an Alfred Sams table....happiness! But that wasn't all, get this - it uses SKITTLES woohoo!
the table was proudly laid out right in the middle of the pub for asll to see AND it was the first Sudbury 50p game! the table was a little uneven due to being threadbare but we didn't have to chase our shots too hard. they rolled gently to the pocket and they gently fell in!
Ali, who won't be told anything by 'The Master' was still making elementary mistakes but enjoying it. she finished the second game with a diagonal 200 and the other ball in the 50 for a 250 finish and a cheer from the pub - they'd all been watching!
so 8/10 for the Brook 9/10 for the 5 bells
on to the last today and that was the North Street Tavern just 200m from 'The Bay Horse'!. this was another Supreme and what a piece of shit it was....If you belted them, they stopped short so you belted them harder and they still stopped at the entrance to the mouth due to some turn up in the felt underlay. when they did go in, they spun 8-times and came out again.
we had two torrid games abd 1,500 was my best score. Ali lost the will to live and I had to do something quickly, i could have gone for a safe game of pool or over to 'The Bay Horse' but we were hungry and so headed for home. She was in quite a state and needed tranquilisers that we normally save for the Giraffe, administering them was done by drawing her attention to a book on 15th Century Churches in Suffolk and she hardly felt a thing....
A bad Supreme is bloody horrible, but we found a nice way of passing another wet Sunday.
regards
Tsffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 20:14:06 GMT
Hi Taffy, Your latest raid across the border into hallowed Suffolk territory makes interesting reading........hope you can maintain your enthusiasm and administer sufficient adrenaline to Ali to keep her motivated also ! What next ? A further incursion across border controls into the land of Essex, where there are reputedly a few more tables ? You will need to don a white suit and Raybans first and borrow an XR3i for the day !
The Inter-regional 4-Pin shield you found at The Brook is of particular interest, especially mention of South Holland - another lost league ? We have found evidence of the existence of one other in S. Lincolnshire but that was the Bourne & District League (in South Kesteven) but they had an All-England membership so must have been 3-Pin.
Regards, tommo
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 20, 2016 23:40:41 GMT
Ha-Ha Tommo! Ali's going as a strawberry blonde some 40 years too late (no you aren't allowed to ask a lady her age!) and if she won't hold the patent pink handbag then I will!
thanks to Dave for recommending these three, Dave? Dave????.
the only ones left in Dave's Sudbury league are the Haleigh Cock and the Edwardstone so you never know, we might get there again. Just also to mention that Ali and I have stuck to red at the rear but taken the scores off the tables. the first two tables today scored 3-pin across the top and the North St, Tavern was 4-pin 10-20-30-20-10. strange. I have to confess, the Supremes are getting to me. the bad ones are dead, the good ones aren't too bad at all. It just takes so much effort!
I shall try and get into The Bell Inn, Murrow just to say I've played there but in all honesty Tommo, The Black Bear with it's Alfred Sams table in Walsoken is all I need and the people are friendly. it's proper, PROPER pikey country so we won't be making eye contact with anyone but we should be OK? we can claim to be "Frankhams" (don't ask), we might be allowed to live.....
as for the South Holland thing well, have a look at a map and you'll see the A1101 crosses the Cambs line into Lincs at Tydd Gott. as you cross the bridge it says 'Welcome to South Holland'. Now look at the Gedney Hill Snookerette League and it is right there! I reckon Bourne might even be west of it near Stamford.
I tried to buy a table this weekend and I don't think it is far away still.....
Dave, how would you like to meet 3 of us one night in the Bay Horse and we can tell you all we remember of the Nmkt & BSE League? I know you played in it but we should be able shed quite a bit of light on a few things. bring a pen and paper.....
Dave?
Taffy
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