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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 23, 2017 6:47:06 GMT
That was something separate Jean: Although part of the agenda, I believe Colin withdrew it after discussion and (rightly or wrongly) no mention was then made of it in the minutes recently pubished. You are correct when you say "After discussion it was agreed that the committee decided which format would be played each year." twas long ago, but your proposal was read an agreed fist Tommo, which gave the aebba the facility to include a 4 pin comp in the alternative rules slot if and when chosen by the committee, it was thought by the committee that this proposal had therefore been dealt with through ratification of your proposal. The Northamts comp was discussed as the meeting was coming to an end, it was suggested it was made an aebba event, (i think by Curt) no one disagreed
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 8:15:01 GMT
There would appear to be some confusion over what was agreed at the AGM as far as the change to the rules concerning the "Alternate Rules" competition and the status of this competition as an "AEBBA event", apart from being shown as the AEBBA 4-pin competition on the calender of events there is no mention in the minutes of a new AEBBA competition being introduced for this year and, as has been mentioned in a previous post, the AEBBA Secretary will decide nearer to the time what format the "Alternative Rules" competition being played in Bucks later in the year. Since further discussion seems likely about this competition and eligibility for Ranking Points, could I suggest that a member of staff moves the posts concerning these to a new thread and therefore leaves this thread for the actual competition itself?
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 8:23:28 GMT
twas long ago, but your proposal was read an agreed fist Tommo, which gave the aebba the facility to include a 4 pin comp in the alternative rules slot if and when chosen by the committee, it was thought by the committee that this proposal had therefore been dealt with through ratification of your proposal. Yes, but my understanding for this proposal was was that the "Alternate Rules" competition could be played under any one of 3 different formats that could be changed from one year to the next at the discretion of the AEBBA.... not to add a new competition in addition to the Alternate Rules which is something completely different? The Northamts comp was discussed as the meeting was coming to an end, it was suggested it was made an aebba event, (i think by Curt) no one disagreed Respectfully, there is no record of this discussion within the minutes of the AGM and, regardless of whether "no one disagreed" or not, I believe that a new AEBBA Competition would probably need to be ratified at an AGM and included within the list of competitions shown in Rule 3. This rule was actually updated at the AGM last year to show all current AEBBA competitions, there is nothing shown for a new 4-pin competition.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 10:12:53 GMT
]Respectfully, there is no record of this discussion within the minutes of the AGM and, regardless of whether "no one disagreed" or not, I believe that a new AEBBA Competition would probably need to be ratified at an AGM and included within the list of competitions shown in Rule 3. This rule was actually updated at the AGM last year to show all current AEBBA competitions, there is nothing shown for a new 4-pin competition. Respectfully, in turn, the wording of the Rule Amendment proposed - and passed at the AGM - was carefully designed to a) clearly define what is meant by Alternative Rules (up till then the lines had been blurred with mentions of "Alternate", suggestive of one system one year and another the next and then back to the first) and b) allow the AEBBA Committee the freedom to decide which of three systems could be endorsed in a particular year - one, two, or even all three. When the revised and up-to-date set of AEBBA Rules are published (as I understand, work has been done on this and they are ready) the situation should be completely unequivocal and hopefully the AEBBA will be allowed to get on with their job.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 23, 2017 10:50:12 GMT
Strikes me that this is now a discussion on a far broader church than just the Northants Four Pin. Do you want this topic split and the latter posts moved to the AEBBA AGM section?
My two penneth is that I think it would be a shame to ditch the relatively long standing triangles version unless it is not economically viable.
Four pin is NOT administered by AEBBA, simply its existence recognised under the latest published rule book. Strikes me Suffolk should have first call on any national title.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 11:08:14 GMT
Already suggested: Since further discussion seems likely about this competition and eligibility for Ranking Points, could I suggest that a member of staff moves the posts concerning these to a new thread and therefore leaves this thread for the actual competition itself?
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Post by barbelman on Feb 23, 2017 11:12:21 GMT
I always think things should be left in context. I'm sure Northants will start a new thread for anything important....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 11:23:12 GMT
Yes, but Tony this thread has actually taken on the separate context of "Discussions Post 2016 AGM" and would be better placed within the AEBBA board. There's probably more to come following the other adopted proposal about the new county compettions framework - or so rumour has it. Many of these chinese whispers could be allayed by publication of the revised Rules set so that everything could be seen in context.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 23, 2017 11:45:33 GMT
Just saying what happened dave, but i like most others are getting a bit bored with it all now, so wont inflict my views on others on this topic further
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 13:28:30 GMT
Respectfully, in turn, the wording of the Rule Amendment proposed - and passed at the AGM - was carefully designed to a) clearly define what is meant by Alternative Rules (up till then the lines had been blurred with mentions of "Alternate", suggestive of one system one year and another the next and then back to the first) and b) allow the AEBBA Committee the freedom to decide which of three systems could be endorsed in a particular year - one, two, or even all three.When the revised and up-to-date set of AEBBA Rules are published (as I understand, work has been done on this and they are ready) the situation should be completely unequivocal and hopefully the AEBBA will be allowed to get on with their job. Unfortunately, I would have to disagree strongly with the highlighted part of the above statement and have no idea where you would have got that idea from.... it was certainly not indicated in your own proposal! This was the FULL Rule Proposal that was taken to the AGM and approved.... Replace with: 54) Jersey and Guernsey will be invited to provide entries to the All England Individuals, Ladies Individuals, Team Competitions and the County Championships as they are associate members. Page 10 of 12 AEBBA Annual General Meeting 2016 Alternative Rules a) When “Triangles” version used: i) The break position for this variation is to play a ball from the centre of the 'D' to hit a triangle of six white balls. ii) The triangle of balls is to be placed on the centre line between the 100 hole and the 10 hole, lead ball nearest the 100 hole, with its centre 14 cm from the centre of the 100 hole. iii) Should insufficient balls be available to fill the triangle after the bar has dropped, the triangle will be built row by row from the front and right hand side. iv) All shots to be played 'off-the-spot' from the centre of the 'D'. v) The black skittle will only count as a white for this competition, except for the 'last ball shot'. b) When run as “Off the Spot” (hosted in turn by Counties on behalf of AEBBA): Normal playing rules apply – apart from that ALL shots must be played from the centre of the D: failure to observe constituting a foul shot. c) When run as a “4-Pin” competition (hosted by Counties on behalf of AEBBA): Rules as employed in the East Anglian Open apply. d) A.E.B.B.A. will only supply trophies to the winners, runners-up and highest break. NB. If passed, for the sake of clarity the words “Alternate Rules” (itself a misnomer) should be removed from Rule 47 as the competition is in essence an Open. Proposed by: Clive Thompson Seconded by: Colin Southouse Vote: Unanimous in favour and accepted for the 2017 competition.The 3 options for the "Alternative Rules" competitions are each shown separately and commence with the word "When" which clearly indicates that they are an either/or situation within any given year. Regardless of anything else, the simple fact is that your proposal was for the "Alternative Rules" competition and that is scheduled to be played in Bucks later in the year, not on this weekend in Northants. So, you are talking about a completely different competition to this one in my opinion and appear to be trying to make your new rule apply to other competitions beyond those that were included in the acceptance. It has already been pointed out that there is no "AEBBA 4-pin" competition listed in Rule 3 of either the current or new AEBBA Rules and Sav has also quoted Rule 20 saying the AEBBA do not administer the 4-pin version of the game. There is nothing in the minutes to show that any proposal was made for this to be branded as the AEBBA 4-pin competition, even though I do understand that someone made that suggestion towards the end of the meeting and nobody objected.... but that is not the same as endorsing a new AEBBA Competition. Personally, I welcome any new competition that will get more people playing our game in ANY format (although I freely admit that the 4-pin version of the game is not something that I want to play myself), however if this going to be an AEBBA Competition in the future then it should be included within the rules and should be offered around the counties in future in the same way as the National Off the Spot Competition. Based on the reply that Lorin gave earlier, it would appear that Northants want to run a 4-pin competition in the future in addition to their normal County Open as it will help to boost the numbers and to cover table hire charges and that is likely to become an ongoing feature.... if that is correct, then why not simply allow them to do that as the "Northants 4-pin Open" and let it be as successful as the first time that it was run last year? Branding it as an AEBBA Competition does not really increase the prestige of the competition and would make no difference to it being awarded Ranking Points or not, which I seem to remember was the starting point of this discussion before we all got carried away talking about other things....
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 13:31:29 GMT
Yes, but Tony this thread has actually taken on the separate context of "Discussions Post 2016 AGM" and would be better placed within the AEBBA board. There's probably more to come following the other adopted proposal about the new county compettions framework - or so rumour has it. Many of these chinese whispers could be allayed by publication of the revised Rules set so that everything could be seen in context. Surely, the new rules should be exactly as shown within the AEBBA AGM 2016 minutes which are available here on the forum.... so I do not see what could be taken out of context at the moment?
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 13:34:04 GMT
Just saying what happened dave, but i like most others are getting a bit bored with it all now, so wont inflict my views on others on this topic further Yes, it is strange how everything "4-pin" seems to involve so much more discussion on the Forum recently.... sorry you find it boring!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:16:38 GMT
YAWN !I think we get the message, Dave: You hate 4-Pin and don't want any of the rest of us to enjoy it.
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Post by "Silent" on Feb 23, 2017 14:33:59 GMT
What on earth is wrong with everyone.....does any of this really matter, what the official title is? Whether it gets ranking points or not? Poor old Northants they run two great competitions and one of the threads has been hijacked.
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 14:43:47 GMT
YAWN indeed Tommo.... reading so many posts about EVERYTHING to do with 4-pin which a few people seem to think is the only version of the game that exists on here now. But if you actually bothered to read my post, you would have seen this statement..... Personally, I welcome any new competition that will get more people playing our game in ANY format (although I freely admit that the 4-pin version of the game is not something that I want to play myself) .... so I do feel that your comment above is totally uncalled for.
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 15:05:46 GMT
What on earth is wrong with everyone.....does any of this really matter, what the official title is? Whether it gets ranking points or not? Poor old Northants they run two great competitions and one of the threads has been hijacked. I did request earlier today if the "discussion" posts about the AGM rule changes could be moved to another thread as it was inevitable that there would be many future comments....
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Post by barbelman on Feb 23, 2017 17:21:36 GMT
Moving it would not have stopped molehills being turned into mountains. Can't you lot have a discussion of more than ten messages without falling out?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 18:42:19 GMT
Ok - let's try and close this out as I would be really disappointed if the lack of clarity or the negative language dissuaded anyone from entering what is certain to be a great weekend of competition.
It seems clear to all that the branding of the 4-Pin event, to be held again in Northants this year, as an AEBBA tournament is nothing short of shambolic. It seems that there is little consensus on what was or was not agreed. As such, and given that the entry forms and website notifications have already been published, it is called (for this year at least) whatever is says on the form. We are not going to change the forms to reflect this lack of certainty.
If the competition does not end up being an AEBBA event this year (bearing in mind that it is only three months away) and the winner is therefore not entitled to call themselves a national, or British champion (or some such) then I hope we can all live with that - I suspect and sincerely hope that, for the majority, this will not be a deal breaker and they will still enter, compete and enjoy the event.
The same applies for the attribution of Ranking Points. If these do not apply either - then so be it.
The intention of the competition last year, this year and for the foreseeable future, is to offer an incentive for our 4-pin friends, and those from York etc. to come and enter a competition away from their home patch (so to speak). To create an opportunity where both 'codes' of the game can be played alongside one another and the players to build bridges and friendships. Also to 'reward' those who are travelling some distance to visit our League by offering a second competition - a chance to make a weekend of it (which many have chosen to do). We are immensely proud of what we do as a league and so we are always keen to share what we have with the wider BB community.
While the event continues to work, continues to receive positive feedback and continues to be viable then it will continue to run. Regardless of whether it has an AEBBA label or not.
Once the discussion around Ranking Points is settled (and given that attribution of these to events is not subject to AEBBA event status) hopefully it will be clear to all. I suspect our only foray into the world of AEBBA branding and Ranking Points was simply as a way to clear any further barriers to play that some (probably only very few) may have had. Neither of these will ultimately be responsible for the success or limit the failure of the event.
As a league we will reflect, after the competition is held and feedback has been taken, on how we will proceed in 2018.
In the meantime - there are still plenty of spaces available for those who wish to enter and we are eager to see you all in May. So please register today!
Lorin
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Post by BB Warrior on Feb 23, 2017 19:12:33 GMT
Well said Lorin, I could not agree with you more. I am sure that your 4-pin competition will be as successful and popular as it proved to be last year and, as a member of the AEBBA Ranking Point Committee, I can assure you that the eligibility of this competition will be given due consideration regardless of whether it proves to be the "Northants" or "AEBBA" 4-pin competition....
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Post by bigtj on Feb 24, 2017 7:23:52 GMT
Well said Lorin, people can have their own opinions about different formats of our wonderful game but in the end it boils down to encouraging people to enjoy and participate, the weekend is a great chance to meet up with everyone and I booked my room as soon as the dates were confirmed, I have only tried 4 pin once and I am sure it is a very different game when played on narrow tables.
Keep up the good work of promoting bar billiards in all formats, the game needs to be promoted to survive.
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Post by triplex on May 2, 2017 13:30:23 GMT
We can Confirm that this is now being classed as a Minor Open and will be awarded some Ranking Points, we have extended the closing date for entries until the 7th May 2017.
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