stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Jul 29, 2018 17:13:05 GMT
This years event is being held at the White Horse, North street, Sudbury. We are hoping to attract 16 teams, up from the 8 we had last year.
The format is slightly different to last year with games now consisting of just 4 singles matches as opposed to having an additional 2 doubles matches.
If 16 teams are reached then the days play will commence at approx 10.30am and finish approx 10pm.
Entrance will be £20 per team (£5 per player)
Teams expressing an interest so far
Bay Horse “A” (Holders) Bay Horse “B” Sudbury White Horse North Street Tavern (Sudbury) Brook Gloves Northants x2 sides Hastings Worthing Newmarket Hadleigh Cock Cornard Brook
Full details will appear after out next meeting on Tuesday. Can people please confirm their interest ASAP
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Jul 29, 2018 18:36:47 GMT
Additional teams
Brewery Tap (Sudbury) Potential team from kent
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Jul 29, 2018 19:43:21 GMT
If anyone has any queries about entry etc. Please let me know. E-mail me on shale7762@yahoo.co.uk or message me directly on Facebook
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Post by bobhall on Jul 29, 2018 19:45:17 GMT
I can say i wont be playing at 10pm at night as would have a long drive home thats for sure
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Post by Chris_Sav on Jul 30, 2018 8:54:48 GMT
That is an awfully long day Steve.
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jul 30, 2018 9:06:05 GMT
Hi Steve have a look at this thread Steve; The National 4x4 four pin team championship 2018long day last year, we all got there early and it went on late. it becomes for me, critical what i eat. if I eat rubbish I've had enough quickly. if I eat well then I go on longer. we did 3 rounds of 6 games last year. main KO, then KO for the trophy or plate and then essentially a game for 1st or second (the main trophy), 3rd or fourth, 5th (and the shield/plate), 5th or sixth, 7th or wooden spoon. we all played the same amount of games. But I played just 6 games in 10 hours! Taffy we did 18 rounds last year, what are you looking at this year and what format? how many tables? 10pm is very late. poor pub ventilation and I'm flaking! cheers Taffy
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Post by bigtj on Jul 30, 2018 18:05:34 GMT
10pm a very late finish as some will drive there and back on the day, think there maybe too many long periods without games, last year was about right, and kept peoples interest. It is great trying to extend the interest but feel you may lose some of last years team if the format and timings become to much, sorry.
How many tables will you get in the pub and keep it comfortable for the teams and the pub regulars??
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Jul 30, 2018 19:08:42 GMT
Appreciate everyones comments about this so far. General consensus is that the day is FAR too long. I shall report this back at our meeting on Tuesday.
Steve
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jul 31, 2018 12:14:05 GMT
Steve
If just 6 tables are possible;
now with 6 tables you could do my 3 teams to each pair of tables.
so with 6 tables there's only room for 3 x 3 =9 teams BUT you play the same amount of rounds as last year = 18 and you get the same amount of games as pairs and singles.
here is one league of 3 teams on their two tables. there are 4 players in a team. we'll call team A players 1 to 4 team B are players 5 to 8 team C are players 9 to 12
here goes; first round; player 1 of team A v player 5 of team B while on the other table; 9 v 2 (that's an 'A' v 'B' and 'C' v 'A') second round; 6 v 10 and 3 v 7 (B v C and A v B) third; 11 v 4 and 8 v 12 (C v A and B v C)
fourth, fifth and sixth rounds are the above BUT moved on a fixture so that player '1' of 'A' now plays someone from team 'C' instead etc. and everyone plays someone from the "other" team. so that is 6 rounds done.
doubles are next and in three rounds too. This is where time is saved. here are the doubles; round 7; players 1+2 from team A v players 7+8 from team B and also 11+12 V 3+4 round 8; 9+10 v 5+6 and 11+12 V 7+8 round 9; 1+2 v 5+6 and 9+10 V 3+4 so each player has had two singles games and two doubles games and one of each was against the other two teams in their league. this makes 9 rounds.
at the end of this then we have a team in first, second and third in each league. now all the first place teams play in a 3-way league and all 3 seconds, and all 3 thirds do the same. this makes another 9 rounds making 18 rounds in total which is the same as last year.
If done on straight wins it takes no account of accumalated scores or two great teams in one league or a red pin or two out of pure bad luck. nor does it take account of huge scores made yet games lost for a losing team.
If points for a win were say 500 (kaching!), 250 bonus for 'pinging over 2,000 in a game! (kaching!) and that added to the players score. you could draw a match 3-3 but have had some close losses and enormous wins. you then add all your teams total points up and the three leagues are picked from whoever amassed the most points. so you're always scoring and pushing up your teams total. everyone is contributing.
you can then start with a clean slate in the second half of the competition or, as they do in Golf, you start with the score that you accumalated from the morning. this is known technically as kaching! Kaching!
Taffy
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 1, 2018 20:35:21 GMT
Evening all again. We had a meeting on Tuesday and this is the final format that we have agreed on.
Suffolk Bar Billiards Association National 4x4 Team Tournament
Date: Saturday 29th September 2018
Venue: White Horse, North Street, Sudbury
Start Time 10.30am
Premise
12 teams of 4 players will be split into 4 groups of 3 and play a round robin. Games will consist of 2 doubles and a team game with all 4 players partaking.
The doubles matches will be normal games but the team game will be played as an alternate shot match, so for example. Team A wins the toss and breaks. Player 1 breaks off player 2 takes the next shot then player 3 then player 4 then back to player 1 again until they miss then it's Team B's turn. Keeps everyone involved in the game.
Results will be determined by the total aggregate score over the 3 games. The winning team is awarded 2 points. In the event of a draw 1 point will be awarded to each team. If after all of the group games teams are level on points, positions will be determined by the most points accumulated.
Group games will take place as follows
1st match 10.30 - 11.40 2nd match 11.45 - 12.55 3rd match 1.00 - 2.10
Break for Food
2nd Section of games.
The winners of each group will go into a straight knockout for the championship trophy, on two unused tables, those who finish 2nd will play for the mushroom trophy whilst those who finish last will compete for the spoon.
The format for the knockout tournaments differs from the group stages with the games taking place over 5 matches, again using the accumulated scores to determine the victor.
There will be 4 singles in the knockout stages and a team game.
Winners go through to the final of each section whilst the losers will play off for the 3/4 place, 7/8 place and 11/12 place .
Knockout stages timescale
Semi Finals 3.00 - 4.50
Finals 5.00 - 6.50
Presentation 7.00
Entrance Fee is £20 per team.
If you are wanting to enter a team, please confirm to Steve Hale, via Facebook or e-mail shale7762@yahoo.co.uk or via text on 07968 459220 no later than Friday 24th August.
Once confirmation has been received details of where to send the entrance fee will be provided.
Currently Confirmed teams are
Bay Horse "A" Cornard Brook Brook Gloves Newmarket Ashburnum Arms
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Post by daveuk1 on Aug 2, 2018 6:12:28 GMT
Team game sounds a little silly. Player 1 for team A breaks and misses Player 1 from team B plays a shot and scores, then player 2-3-4-1 etc, when they eventually miss who takes the next shot for team A, presumably player 2? Should be fun trying to remember whose shot it is after a few beers So each player plays 4 team games, 2 doubles and 2 singles in the course of day, is that right?
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Aug 2, 2018 9:26:11 GMT
Hi Steve
just emailed you to enter the Newmarket team.
all I can see as an obvious problem is gathering 8 around one table and feeding everyone of the 4 players around in a circle as each shot goes down. added to that, if we are all at that stage, we will need outside scorers.
otherwise good luck! did you say 4 tables?
Taffy
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 2, 2018 10:27:46 GMT
You've got it Dave. Bit like playing for the gallon at darts. Just need to write the names and order down so it can be seen so there shouldn't be an issue. Also playing things this way mean that everyone will participate in 8 games throughout the day rather than the 6 last year and in a short space of time
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 2, 2018 10:30:18 GMT
Hi Taffy, We are aware that there is a potential issue with scoring in the team game, but we are all big enough and ugly enough to be able to score each other during that match. Group games are played on 4 tables but we will have 6 tables overall. The winners of the group will play the semi finals and final on two previously unused tabes whilst the 2nd place and 3rd place trophies are on the original 4 tables.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Aug 2, 2018 16:59:34 GMT
Hi Steve,
Have to say i think this format is a bit too intricate for me, with NO singles matches at all, the Hastings 4pin of 7 teams with all playing 6 singles games really hit the spot for all who played, will have to ask my team what they think and will come back later.
Whats the option if you dont get 12 teams?
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 2, 2018 17:38:42 GMT
Hi Gandalf. There are no singles games in the two group matches but in the straight knockouts in the afternoon the games shift the 4 singles matches and ateam game. So everyone will have two singles matches and partake in 8 over the day
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Post by triplex on Aug 2, 2018 20:19:46 GMT
Must be honest the team game seems a bit strange to me as well. Am I right in saying if I’m player 1 and I pot a ball I have to move away and let player 2 take the next shot??
Is this a definite format of the competition?
I will speak to the others Steve.
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Post by bigtj on Aug 2, 2018 20:56:15 GMT
We are discussing whether we will participate, one of our ordinal 4 is a definite no with the format and the rest of us and the fourth player that would probably play are doubtful about the team format and the need to drop the singles in the early rounds, a great shame as we enjoyed last year so much. Will let you know soonest.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Aug 2, 2018 22:40:46 GMT
Hi Gandalf. There are no singles games in the two group matches but in the straight knockouts in the afternoon the games shift the 4 singles matches and ateam game. So everyone will have two singles matches and partake in 8 over the day My boys have said yes so the Ashburnham are in
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 2, 2018 23:06:35 GMT
Hi Triplex. We have shifted from last years format so we can cater for more teams this year, If we kept to last years format with additional teams we were looking at a 12 hour day and there was a lot of negativity towards that, so we came up with this format. It's different, we know that, but by doing it this way we can enable players to be involved with 2 extra games of billiards compared to last year, 8 games compared to 6, and the timings will also be shorter than last year as well. The idea of this tournament is that it is a TEAM tournament, so we've, rightly or wrongly, pushed the emphasis more onto the team aspect.
You are correct about the team game.
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 2, 2018 23:09:37 GMT
Hi BigTJ, As I have just mention to TripleX we have tried to cater for more teams this year and to keep the day within a decent timescale, this has meant we have had to tinker with the format, to the point of having to drop some single games, if we didn't we would be playing until gone 10pm and people didn't want that. Players will get involved in 8 games each throughout the day this year compared to 6 last year. Sad if you will not be making it, but please let us know. Regards Steve
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 2, 2018 23:10:01 GMT
Great News Gandalf. Look forward to seeing you in September
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Post by daveuk1 on Aug 3, 2018 0:54:11 GMT
Steve, it is obvious that people are not in favour of the team games, was it not considered to just play four straight singles all the way through? OK 3 extra games for the group stages as four singles instead of two doubles plus the team game, two of these games would be clawed back as no team game in either the semi or finals and the other time could be made up by reducing the lunch break, 50 minutes seems a strange amount of time, not enough time for anyone to walk up to spoons and get food and how will Gary cope? I know he's a dam good chef and works like superman, but will he be able to cope with 40 odd people ordering food at the same time? Surely from his point of veiw it would be better if food orders were staggered, which they could be if it was straight singles all the way, people would know when they are not playing and be able to order food accordingly at a time they want, also you have two spare table doing nothing that could also be used. Hastings had their four pin worked out to perfection
Surely that committee understand people may be travelling 3 hours or more each way just to take part, they want time on the table, playing a team game where the best you will get is one shot in every eight shots if you are lucky isn't the best option
Im sure if asked most players would prefer 5 singles rather taking part in 8 games when four of those games are the team matches Just my thoughts but I guess it's too late now
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Aug 3, 2018 5:13:12 GMT
Hi Steve just emailed you to enter the Newmarket team. all I can see as an obvious problem is gathering 8 around one table and feeding everyone of the 4 players around in a circle as each shot goes down. added to that, if we are all at that stage, we will need outside scorers. otherwise good luck! did you say 4 tables? Taffy you also need a great deal of space to move 8 people round a table regularly
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Post by bigtj on Aug 3, 2018 6:33:30 GMT
Understand Mal has contacted and after discussion with all of us we have now withdrawn, although I am disappointed I am with the team as we have to travel and were going to stay Friday and Saturday night, think the team format is farcical and can see all sorts of problems with the logistics, last year was great and understand wanting to allow for more teams, but can see the team situation just turning into a three ring circus, doubles are ok as part of the format but do feel most of us would prefer singles.
Will still support the Open, and will certainly miss coming up in September, good luck with the competition. TJ
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Aug 3, 2018 8:53:20 GMT
Hi Steve
a few little ditties
18 rounds last year. 17 rounds this year if you use all 6 tables in the pairs and later on, all the semis are played concurrently. you have 6 semis and 6 tables. it also relies on 4 leagues utilising 6 tables which means moving around a bit, teams will have used 3 tables after the morning session.
better that lunch is taken during the individual games in the afternoon so we order food piecemeal (no pun intended!).
but you are only using 4 of the 6 tables in the morning for the 4 v 4 matches. it will take 3 rounds to do the 4v4 games.
or drop the 4v4 in all the first rounds and the finals and do doubles in the finals as well as singles. 4 rounds in total of the 4v4 dropped 3 rounds of doubles in the finals.
a choice A R1-4 league doubles (player gets two doubles against a pair of the opposition teamS)
afternoon R5-8 semi finals doubles with the second partner in your team (player gets two doubles, playing each of the opposition pairs)
late afternoon/evening R9-14 finals individual matches (player gets one game) R15-18 finals pairs matches (player gets two doubles against each of the opposition pairs)
player gets one single, a 4v4 and 6 doubles matches.
or choice B
R1-4 league doubles (player gets two doubles same partner, one game against one of the opposition pairs of each of the other teams in their own league) R5 team 4 v 4 challenge (best place to put this is early as a 'novelty').
afternoon R6-9 semi finals doubles with a second partner in your team (player gets two doubles playing both opposition pairs)
late afternoon/evening R10-15 finals individual matches (player gets one game) R16-19 finals pairs matches with third partner (player gets two doubles playing both opposition pairs)
player has had 6 pairs matches, a 4v4 and a singles.
the thing to remember is this with 6 tables; individual matches in straight KO needs 6 rounds doubles in the 3 team tables need 4 rounds doubles in the KO need 2 rounds doubles in the KO but also playing the 'other pair' needs 4 rounds total team 4v4 needs just 1 round
notice in second choice there are are more games in the finals than earlier to sort the wheat from the chaff. The day 'ramps up'
it can be parred back by playing only one of the opposition pairs in the finals. this would bring it down to 17 games.
Taffy
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Aug 11, 2018 9:10:46 GMT
from Chris Cass; I believe it is to be amended and is the the same as last year. 8 teams, 4 tables, 4 singles and 2 doubles games per round. Just need to confirm who is going now I guess.
Taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Aug 11, 2018 11:54:29 GMT
Thanks for keeping us updated taffy hope i
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Post by bigtj on Aug 11, 2018 15:19:44 GMT
I believe it has gone back to last years format and we are back in.
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stevehale
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Post by stevehale on Aug 12, 2018 17:10:44 GMT
Apoogies for not updating people sooner. We've had further discussions and due to the lack of enthusiasm for the updated format we have decided to revert back to the format of last season.
Venue: White Horse, North Street, Sudbury
Parking: There is a small car park at the rear of the pub which can be accessed just past the Wimpy, which is near the Taxi Rank on East Street.
Start Time 10.30am SHARP
8 teams will be participating on the day, 4 teams not from the Sudbury League have entered these are from Worthing, Hastings, Newmarket and Northampton. (Can these teams please let us know your team names and participants numbered 1-4 please)
The Bay Horse "A" are automatically entered as they are the current holders.
The remaining places will be filled up from teams from the Sudbury League, if there are more than 3 teams wishing to take part there will be some qualifying play offs to determine who will fill the remaining slots.
Format for the day will see games played on 4 tables and will be made up of 2 doubles matches and 4 singles matches per game. If the match ends in a draw then the winning side will be the team who accumulates the most points over the 6 matches.
Winners of the Quarter Final matches go through to the main draw the losers go into the plate. Each team will have 3 matches over the day so each player will have 6 games.
Rules are as the agreed 4 pin rules used in the Suffolk Bar Billiards Association 4 pin tournament.
Any questions please don't hesitate to get in touch.
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