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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 15, 2007 11:47:31 GMT
If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top cushion and does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses his break. (this does not apply to the last ball of the game).
Omitted in AEBBA version 4.00, this has happened to both Milko and myself in competition when oppostion have been in front and just rolled the cueball up the baulk line with no attempt to hit any ball on the table
I feel it should be reinstated.
Sav
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Post by milko on Oct 5, 2009 14:07:43 GMT
Will all players please remember this ALL ENGLAND rule, as it happened yesterday in the Ladies County's and the ball was NOT returned to the tray.
O) If the cue ball fails to reach an imaginary line through the black peg and parallel with the top cushion and does not strike another ball, it will be returned to the tray and the player loses his break. (this does not apply to the last ball of the game).
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sandra
Full Forum Member
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Post by sandra on Oct 6, 2009 10:50:14 GMT
Thank you: I did try to explain this rule to the other players but I was just told I didn't know what I was talking about. It's nice to be proved right.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2009 11:00:32 GMT
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Post by milko on Oct 6, 2009 12:02:36 GMT
Thank you: I did try to explain this rule to the other players but I was just told I didn't know what I was talking about. It's nice to be proved right. Yes Sandra you were right and welcome to the forum as it's your 1st post on here. :)
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enzo
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Post by enzo on Mar 3, 2011 9:51:14 GMT
Omitted in AEBBA version 4.00 Why was this omitted in that particular version? I think the rule should stand, as it's very unsportsmanly, and I am always quick to remind people of this rule (even if accidently miscued for instance). Thank you: I did try to explain this rule to the other players but I was just told I didn't know what I was talking about. It's nice to be proved right. Sandra, I know it's sad and it's all very well saying this after its happened, but I always keep a set of rules on me so there's no arguing, as twice it could've ended it tears :)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 10:19:28 GMT
Hi Lorenzo, Both Worthing and Littlehampton Leagues are affiliated to the Sussex County Bar Billiards Association, and ipso facto should be playing to SCBBA Playing Rules: www.sussexbarbilliards.com/Sussex/SCBBA%20Rules.htmMany years ago, I served on the Sussex committee, when Charlie Cordery was running things, and I remember at the time Charlie negotiating with all the Sussex leagues to remove the 'Rules of Play' element of their Rules, and adopt SCBBA Playing Rules. In Horsham we removed a whole chunk and just said "Playing Rules as per SCBBA". At the time, all the other Leagues in Sussex also complied. The next logical move was to get all the Counties to do the same and adopt All-England Association Rules, and this was done also. So some 25 years ago we had the 'perfect' situation of the whole country playing under one set of Playing Rules! Where it has gone wrong, is that over the years, the Leagues have wished to see everything listed in one set of Rules, and so the SCBBA Playing Rules were copied verbatim into the Individual Leagues' Rules. Changes have then since been voted on at Leagues' AGMs without going direct to Sussex and/or All-England, thus creating conflict once more. It needs persons like yourself with fresh enthusiasm for the game to air the subject at the WDBBL and LBBL AGMs. ;) And just to add, these two Leagues are not the only ones, I know of at least two others where it has happened ! tommo
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enzo
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Post by enzo on Mar 3, 2011 11:26:09 GMT
That is what I understood it to be, that by affiliation, all counties and in turn all leagues should play under the AEBBA rules. Understandable that these have been adapted to suit each league, but these issues should be brought before the Sussex committee/AE committee and then it be decided.
I only play by the AEBBA rules, as I don't agree with the politics of it all with comments such as "That's not how we play it in the Littlehampton" or "You wouldn't get away with that in the Mid-Sussex".
I for one suggest that perhaps at the next Sussex AGM (with the view of taking this to the AEBBA AGM and making all counties do the same), that at the bare minimum all the leagues within our county must conform to the same set of rules, and any discrepencies between the rules be sorted there and then. It may seem like a lot of hassle for little outcome, but when you have interleagues and open competitions then the rules shouldn't change as soon as you step over a boarder.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 11:44:19 GMT
I only play by the AEBBA rules, as I don't agree with the politics of it all with comments such as " or "You wouldn't get away with that in the Mid-Sussex". Just to say, we in Mid Sussex have got it in fairly good apple-pie order: At the start of each season the Secretary sends out 3 sets of Rules (AEBBA, SCBBA and Mid-Sussex constitutional/own competitions) - and all three sets are also displayed on our Website.
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enzo
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Post by enzo on Mar 3, 2011 12:06:32 GMT
Sorry, figure of speech, not implying anything by suggesting individual leagues :D
I'll have to examine the AEBBA and SCBBA rules and determine any major differences.
I've just re-read my own post above, and maybe it's biased. Maybe it should be open for discussion first whether individual leagues CAN or CANNOT change certain rules to suit their league/competitions before we start making everyone's the same.
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Post by JB on Mar 3, 2011 12:37:22 GMT
Wow at last it looks as if people might bother to turn up to the Sussex AGM.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 12:39:25 GMT
(1) Sorry, figure of speech, not implying anything by suggesting individual leagues :D (2) I'll have to examine the AEBBA and SCBBA rules and determine any major differences. (3) I've just re-read my own post above, and maybe it's biased. Maybe it should be open for discussion first whether individual leagues CAN or CANNOT change certain rules to suit their league/competitions before we start making everyone's the same. 1. No offence taken or implied, Enzo :) 2. Good idea to compare AEBBA and SCBBA Rules to confirm that SCBBA have acted with due diligence. ;) 3. That rather depends on whether or not you believe in the principle of Standardization. I do, because, deep down I like life to be simple and uncomplicated. 8-) The 'Bigger Picture' of course is the massive difference between how the game is played Home and 'Abroad' - by which I mean Jersey and Guernsey playing all shots 'off-the-spot'. The way our game is played must seem ridiculously easy not only to 'Foreigners' but also to the ethnic groups that play the competitive '4-Pin' version.............The situation reminds me of the Lilliputian tribes who argue over the correctness of which end of a boiled egg to crack. ;D ;D ;D
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enzo
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Post by enzo on Dec 15, 2011 11:02:09 GMT
Well as I said before, I appreciate that different counties and in turn different leagues have and need their own variations on the rules. I've had this discussion with a few eggheads/veterans to ask 'just because the rule is NOT in the counties' rules, does this mean that there is no such rule or is it valid from the AEBBA rules? Or is the AE rules discarded once in the county and only the AE rules apply to AEBBA officiated events?' I assumed the latter but in this case, surely the SCBBA rules are an adaptaion of the AEBBA rules thus the rule must have been ejected via committee or the rule should still stand?
I feel that rule 30 of the SCBBA rules needs addressing to fall in line with AEBBA rules:
DELIBERATE FOUL SHOT 30. If, after the bar has dropped, a player in the opinion of the Scorer deliberately plays a ball directly into a hole without touching another ball, then the ball should be retrieved and the other player allowed to play it. Any additional coins required to do so should be provided by the player deemed to have played the foul.
I feel this needs rewording at a minimum. Firstly omitting the first 6 words as I feel the rule should be in place regardless of whether the bar has dropped. Secondly, I feel this rule is too specific in regard to playing a ball down a hole, whereas the player could roll up to the black peg/along the baulk line and this is a similar unsportsmanlike tactic. I am not suggesting omitting this part, but this should be an 'example' or an 'including..' subsection of the rule.
Similarly I feel AEBBA's rule 27 O) should adopt the SCBBA rule of playing a ball deliberately into a hole for similar reasons.
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enzo
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Post by enzo on Dec 15, 2011 12:16:23 GMT
Having a look at the SCBBA and AEBBA rules, it spurred me on to looks at the WDBBL rules, and realised that rule 1 needs elaboration as the 10th AEBBA rule states.
AEBBA: 10. All shots must be played with the base of the cue ball within the area of the "D".
WDBBL 1. All shots must be played with the cue ball within the area of the 'D'
Clearly the AEBBA rule was updated but the Worthing rule not so. The later could cause problems as to this day, I know of people who think that the ball just has to be in contact with the D not the base resting on it. This is usually the cheeky people using extreme left and right of the D to get the shot behind the 10, where the base of the ball is probably half or more on the cloth (usually hard to tell and benefit of the doubt is given).
The reason I'm on this subject is to follow my comment on a previous thread; If the D has been raised or more commonly indented, can the player use the 'ridge' it creates at the straight part of the D where it connects to the leather bridging area? I have been pulled up for it before but I felt I wasn't in violation of the rule??
PLUS: There's no rule in the WDBBL that says I can't roll up the baulk line ;D
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enzo
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Post by enzo on Dec 15, 2011 12:44:30 GMT
...The situation reminds me of the Lilliputian tribes who argue over the correctness of which end of a boiled egg to crack. ;D ;D ;D I meant to add, that really made me chuckle! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 12:51:12 GMT
Hi Enzo,
Usual comments already made on this thread about Standardization of playing rules apply.
You may just have hit upon something that the AEBBA may need to make a ruling on, about when a ball "sits back" between the D and the ridge of the table.
When scoring I have allowed this as underside of ball is still in contact with the D.
The scenario described in your penultimate paragraph where ball is making contact with both cloth and D I would not allow, as the D has an element of height, and I would be looking for elevation above the cloth for the ball to be legally within the D.
tommo
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 13:06:15 GMT
Similarly I feel AEBBA's rule 27 O) should adopt the SCBBA rule of playing a ball deliberately into a hole for similar reasons. I'm not convinced that AEBBA have this wrong, Enzo. ;) The reason for introduction was the unsportsmanlike practice of some players of potting a ball straight down a 50 after the bar had gone thus losing a ball from play and denying the opponent the chance to win: It seemed fair for this ball to be retrieved. Thus the situation only has relevance once the bar has gone.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 15, 2011 13:21:56 GMT
I think we all know when the ball is sitting on the 'D' which is what the rule intends.
As far as the general principle of rules hierarchy is concerned
The AEBBA rules MUST take precedent.
Sav
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enzo
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Post by enzo on Dec 28, 2011 7:09:39 GMT
Similarly I feel AEBBA's rule 27 O) should adopt the SCBBA rule of playing a ball deliberately into a hole for similar reasons. I'm not convinced that AEBBA have this wrong, Enzo. ;) Thus the situation only has relevance once the bar has gone. I understand the rule and why it was introduced but I feel it shouldn't only be enforced after the bar has dropped as a similar tactic could be adopted (especially for off the spot) where a player could roll into the 50 hole instead of attempting a shot behind the 10 etc?! Never usually see it happen but the SCBBA rule covers such an incident The AEBBA rules MUST take precedent. I too abide by this rule but one assumes that the Counties' rules do overrule the AEBBA's rules or they are redundant?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 8:32:33 GMT
You're muddying the waters, Enzo !
Counties by affiliating to All-England abide by All-England Playing Rules. One set only. They can have additional Rules of Constitution which are unique to themselves, as well as guidelines covering their own (cup) competitions.
Much work was done, especially by Sav, four or five years ago, in smartening up the Rules of Play, and getting various anomalies removed, and this went before more than one AEBBA AGM before getting adopted and published on an official basis.
With regard to the 'deliberate foul shot' it is considered that this only has relevance once the bar has gone as it denies the opponent a scoring opportunity/chance to win the game, thus the ball is retrieved for the opponent. In open play it is merely "the waste of a turn". And of course trying to bottle the game up by deliberately rolling along the baulk line is now covered by the recent adoption of Rule 27 O).
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 28, 2011 9:00:22 GMT
27) O I cannot see why this is being interpreted as after the bar drops. It is a part of rule 27 applied at all times. 'After the bar drops' only applies to rule 32.
Yes the AEBBA rules take precedent as stated earlier, counties bow to these rules by affiliating to AEBBA. Several counties apparently choose to ignore this condition of membership of the AEBBA. All County opens should be played under full AEBBA rules or they should not count for AEBBA ranking points in my view. 'Cake and eat it' comes to mind.
As far as the correctness of any AEBBA rule is concerned, a change will need to be proposed and debated at the AEBBA AGM. Until that happens the current AEBBA rule book are the rules by which all affiliated counties play by.
Sav
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 9:25:33 GMT
27) O I cannot see why this is being interpreted as after the bar drops. Sav I don't think that was being alleged, Sav. Of course that part of it applies all the time, and was a very good proposal from Oxon which was adopted just a few AGMs ago. The part which was being disputed was the deliberate foul shot, when a player tries to put the game to bed unfairly by putting a ball out of commission.
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Post by BB Warrior on Dec 28, 2011 9:38:57 GMT
Forgive me, but I'm not really sure what the issue is here..... ??? I understand the rule and why it was introduced but I feel it shouldn't only be enforced after the bar has dropped as a similar tactic could be adopted (especially for off the spot) where a player could roll into the 50 hole instead of attempting a shot behind the 10 etc?! Never usually see it happen but the SCBBA rule covers such an incident Surely, it is only a "problem" if somebody plays a deliberate foul after the bar has dropped as that means that their opponent is unable to score with that ball unless it is retrieved.... which, as far as I am aware, is already covered by the current Rules? If, during the course of normal time during a match, a player misses the ball that they are aiming at (deliberately or otherwise) then it is a foul shot and their opponent takes their turn on the table. If you have the scenario of the ball behind the 10 hole in an "off the spot" match, it makes little difference to me whether their opponent has missed making a genuine attempt to hit the ball or not.... they have still missed and the ball is still behind the 10 hole. ::) I do however agree that the "standard" Playing Rules should be the same in all Leagues and variations to these should only be made within the Individual Competitions played in the Leagues where formats are sometimes different.... ie Alternate Rules etc. However, all proposals for Rule Changes (or adoption of current AEBBA Rules) should be made in the normal way to the League and County AGM's as that is the ONLY place that things can be changed..... so Enzo we look forward to seeing you next year at these armed with lots of proposals. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 11:09:22 GMT
However, all proposals for Rule Changes (or adoption of current AEBBA Rules) should be made in the normal way to the League and County AGM's as that is the ONLY place that things can be changed..... so Enzo we look forward to seeing you next year at these armed with lots of proposals. ;D ...........or in the case of Playing Rules, at the AEBBA AGM. ;) [edit] More concerns have since been aired by Enzo..........transferred to a new thread called "Is there an AEBBA Rule to cover it?" - tommo
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