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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 20:58:07 GMT
Good news about the raising of the cap on entries to 48 for the AEBBA 4-Pin to be staged by Northants.
Can you guarantee the playing under East Anglian rules, with no tweaks ?
[edit - text added to make sense of post following transfer from another thread]
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 21:07:16 GMT
Good news about the raising of the cap on entries to 48. Can you guarantee the playing under East Anglian rules, with no tweaks ? Hi, Yes - we hoped that people will be pleased to get that extra few opportunities to play in this popular event. No - I cannot guarantee that the complete EA rules will be adopted with no tweaks - there will certainly be tweaks as per the discussion at the 2018 AGM which you may have already spotted in the minutes. Whilst I am very conscious of the challenges presented by both options available - utilising the EA rules set or adopting a set of rules for this event noting its unique characteristics. Both options have their supporters and detractors! Some time ago the AEBBA committee invited members to consult and produce a recommendation of rules for this event. Colin S, Nigel S and others have being doing this in a bid to produce something that strikes the very best balance for the 'hybrid' nature of this event. Should this be produced and ratified in time it will be adopted for this event. Failing that the rules used in 2018 shall apply. Either way - I sincerely hope you are able to continue to support this event. Thanks, Lorin
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 21:36:57 GMT
So a sort of alternative set of rules to the misnomered 'Alternate Rules' LOL
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 21:53:18 GMT
Haha - Not quite. More a definitive set of rules for this particular AEBBA event. It has no impact on any other 4-Pin event organised elsewhere and never will have.
If my memory serves - and I have no desire to root through old posts - Chris S reminded us all last year that the AEBBA rule to essentially adopt any rules for 4-Pin that are decided by our EA colleagues was agreed at a place in time - before any prospect of an AEBBA event on AEBBA tables etc. We are no longer at that place.
We will have a definitive set of rules for this event - preserving as much as possible the unique characteristics of the 4-Pin game that we all appreciate as well as ensuring any worthwhile 'tweaks' can be accommodated. Nothing will be considered that offers any perceived advantage to one set of players over another.
As I said before - if we can get this done swiftly we will. If not, last year's approach will be maintained.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 17, 2019 22:12:31 GMT
Guilty as charged!
To remind you and according to the A.G.M. minutes, no vote was taken to change or abandon rule 61C (62C as was) that governs playing four pin under EA rules. Rule 61C still stands in the latest rules post 2018 A.G.M..
I don't see how anything could be tweaked under the AEBBA constitution for this year's four pin competitions under Rule 14
I do fully agree that things have moved on and AEBBA should have a set of rules to cover its own four pin comp, especially in that the EA Open is now played on a different type of table.
Am I missing something please?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 22:41:19 GMT
Hi Chris,
Rule 15 will be used if required.
Lorin
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 12:37:20 GMT
Hi Chris, Rule 15 will be used if required. Lorin Whilst in principle I am very anti the idea of having a "different set of rules for 4-Pin when played on AEBBA-supplied Jelkes tables", I would defend your right to stage your event with a couple of embellishments such as not having to use the red, and balls back after the opening break. These are quite harmless, the competition to all intents and purposes is being played under Sudbury Playing Rules, and I would not have thought warranted an EGM in order to ratify their use at this year's event.
What does concern me, though, is the sentiment behind the proposal to have a separate set of rules "for the sake of speeding up the game": Whilst at the AGM the proposal was taken off the table as regards a vote, the principle itself remains unchallenged, with responsibility given to a working party to come up with definitive proposals. "The can being kicked down the road."What will become so different that warrants a new rule set, I would ask ? Baulk line ? Last ball shot ? How would these speed up the game ? And why speed up the game in the first place ? You are going to get higher scores anyway on the AEBBA tables simply by the 150 break shot being possible, but make too many other changes and you will jeopardise the whole integrity of 4-Pin and destroy the charm of this quirky version of our noble game.
If you do wish for the AEBBA 4-Pin to be a totally different experience to Sudbury, I would suggest that you include David Lloyd in your working party, he has a shedload of radical solutions such as swapping the white and red over for the break shot, as well as the introduction of a 'pink ball'.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 18, 2019 13:18:23 GMT
Hi Chris, Rule 15 will be used if required. Lorin Whilst in principle I am very anti the idea of having a "different set of rules for 4-Pin when played on AEBBA-supplied Jelkes tables", I would defend your right to stage your event with a couple of embellishments such as not having to use the red, and balls back after the opening break. These are quite harmless, the competition to all intents and purposes is being played under Sudbury Playing Rules, and I would not have thought warranted an EGM in order to ratify their use at this year's event. What does concern me, though, is the sentiment behind the proposal to have a separate set of rules "for the sake of speeding up the game": Whilst at the AGM the proposal was taken off the table as regards a vote, the principle itself remains unchallenged, with responsibility given to a working party to come up with definitive proposals. "The can being kicked down the road."What will become so different that warrants a new rule set, I would ask ? Baulk line ? Last ball shot ? How would these speed up the game ? And why speed up the game in the first place ? You are going to get higher scores anyway on the AEBBA tables simply by the 150 break shot being possible, but make too many other changes and you will jeopardise the whole integrity of 4-Pin and destroy the charm of this quirky version of our noble game. If you do wish for the AEBBA 4-Pin to be a totally different experience to Sudbury, I would suggest that you include David Lloyd in your working party, he has a shedload of radical solutions such as swapping the white and red over for the break shot, as well as the introduction of a 'pink ball'. Think we are all getting fed up with this topic Tommo, Lets just leave it to AEBBA to sort out so Northants can play the rules they want to and Suffolk can play theirs, iv'e certainly spent a lot of effort in trying to help AEBBA make sure their rules are fairer for all and also to make the game more fun, am struggling to understand what the effing problem is with this as iv'e been in discussion with Steve Hale and Dave Lilley and AEBBA
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 14:26:41 GMT
There wouldn't be a problem at all, Gandalf, if you were gallant enough to accept AEBBA Rule 61c) and not try to change things.
Simples !
Your discussions with Steve Hale, Dave Lillee etc have already borne fruit, with Dave slowly coming round to the idea of even breaks in tournaments. So with an entente cordiale getting ever nearer, I maintain that there is not a need for an official alternative set of rules to what is an alternative version of the game, that will only serve to confuse. (We don't have an officially-published set of rules for Off-the-Spot when played in this country despite there being a couple of minor differences to when played in the Channel Isles - always using the red etc - so why should we for 4-Pin ?)
I am not trying to do Northants down (if you read my post carefully), in fact you and I both pushed for acceptance of theirs as a National event in the first place.
I would however reserve my right to comment on the open Forum now that the minutes of the 2018 AGM have been published.
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 18, 2019 18:54:30 GMT
CS has spent too much of his own time trying to come up with a set of rules for 4 Pin on a standard table and it seems to me people are happy to let him get on with it and then shout him down. I have say, no offence to taffy but I am glad Colin hasn't taken up the idea of a pink ball, here in Suffolk we would have no chance as bar billiards is played along side drinking, we often already see 2 or 3 red balls on the table in the later stages, having pink balls would just be too much
I have always agreed with the break back when playing either flavour of bar billiards on aebba tables as the 50-50 is too easy. Not so on narrow tables. Not having to use the red may speed the game up, also gives you the chance to frustrate your opponent if you're in front by waiting for it to return. The red counts double and no player would dream of playing a break shot without using the red if its available. Moving the pegs back as soon as they are moved slows the game down waiting for the scorer to replace them. I keep hearing about the Northants 4 pin, I thought it was the aebba 4 pin and as such I am sure Suffolk would be happy to think about hosting it next year
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Post by Chris on Feb 18, 2019 19:03:28 GMT
Well that would be good … x
Would be nice if the four pin AEBBA travelled and it can do as it is an AEBBA event, as does the AEBBA Off The Spot which I believe Northants have this year and other events travel to.
The whole idea was to ensure that ALL COUNTIES had a chance to hold an event and players had the opportunity to be close or not to re an event,
May be good to see the AEBBA Off the Spot at Sussex next year maybe backed on the Saturday with the BIOC. But I know they are able to hold other events.
Chris x
Chris x
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taffy
Distinguished Member
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Post by taffy on Feb 18, 2019 19:24:22 GMT
i agree with you dave that it shouldn't be just stuck in one place but Northants is in the east midlands and it would be stretching it to offer it the EA open in return. is that what you were going to do Dave? LOL!!!!
where have they all been held so far anyway?
seems to me that it complements the 3-pin event the next day at present.
I could open this further but i'm going to stick to the subject for now.
taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 18, 2019 20:54:14 GMT
Suffolk wouldn't be offering anything in return apart from running the tournament. Northants relaunched their 3 pin open a couple of years ago and complimented it with a four pin tournament on the Saturday, last year the aebba decided to take it over. It has always been a brilliant weekend and there is no reason to move the 4 pin apart from 2 reasons, firstly it is now an aebba tournament and should therefore be offered to other counties and far more importantly Northants are a bunch of piss heads who lead me off the straight and narrow, they force me to drink too much, make me pay for a hotel room I hardly see as for some reason I always end up in a club until about 5am
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 22:11:59 GMT
Chrissie - the principle was agreed a few years ago that the National Off-the-Spot would indeed go on tour, and it has since acquired the further concept that each county would be allowed a couple of years in succession.........so far we have had Kent twice, Surrey twice and (West) Sussex twice.
Now it's off to Bucks (cf 2018 AEBBA AGM minutes) and I would imagine they too would hold it for 2 years.
I would imagine that Northants and Oxon would also require a turn before it ends up darn sarf again.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 20, 2019 13:02:16 GMT
Think the 4 pin Northants is a great event and should stay on the callender, it would also be great to organise a similar 2nd annual 4 pin event in Sussex, we already have 30ish people playing in Hastings every year and if we had an event in Brighton don't think it would be hard to get a 48 player event going.
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 20, 2019 17:44:20 GMT
Gandalf do you hate me that much? I'm sure you are trying to kill me off. My mind says YES but some internal organs say NO. A weekend at Northants another down in Hastings plus Suffolk is bad enough not sure if I can take another weekend on the pi$$, spose it would be really rude not to try though
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Post by Chris on Feb 20, 2019 20:28:57 GMT
Chrissie - the principle was agreed a few years ago that the National Off-the-Spot would indeed go on tour, and it has since acquired the further concept that each county would be allowed a couple of years in succession.........so far we have had Kent twice, Surrey twice and (West) Sussex twice.
Now it's off to Bucks (cf 2018 AEBBA AGM minutes) and I would imagine they too would hold it for 2 years. I would imagine that Northants and Oxon would also require a turn before it ends up darn sarf again. Agree totally Clive - but the AEBBA OFF the SPOT 4 Pin at Northants can also travel if people wish to hold it, I remember Steven offering at the AGM . If I have this wrong and it is not an AEBBA event my apologies totally to Northants. I may have?? Thanks Chris
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 20, 2019 20:37:21 GMT
Gandalf,,,, thinking about things even more, remembering Taffy has a four pin event arranged for this weekend, which I am sure will be bigger and better next year(unfortunately due to hospital treament on my shoulder its looking like I wont be able to attend this year) , organised four pin tournaments could well be at least 7 next year, not bad considering a few years ago most of you had never played four pin. I really hope this signals that some three pin players are realising how much fun four pin can be and please remember if you want a really authentic four pin tournament Suffolk do have narrow tables available to hire complete with mushrooms
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Post by Chris on Feb 20, 2019 21:01:34 GMT
Dave
I have sent you a PM re a) Cost of hiring tables and how will they be delivered with these costs b) public liability insurance.
Thanks Chris
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stevehale
Full Forum Member
One day I will succeed - 26/3/22 I did!
Posts: 171
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Post by stevehale on Feb 20, 2019 21:48:26 GMT
I'd be a massive fan of more 4 pin events especially in Hastings/Brighton. Love that part of the world. Maybe an extra tweak by hosting a 3 pin tournament on narrow tables event?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 23:59:17 GMT
Agree totally Clive - but the AEBBA OFF the SPOT 4 Pin at Northants can also travel if people wish to hold it, I remember Steven offering at the AGM . If I have this wrong and it is not an AEBBA event my apologies totally to Northants. I may have?? Thanks Chris Yes for its second year Northants 4-Pin became re-badged as an AEBBA Alternative Rules event (the others of course being Off-the-Spot and Triangles). As such they can "go on tour" as you say. But we are talking 4-Pin here, and only half the affiliated counties show any interest in that version, so logic dictates that it won't need to move on so regularly.
I would not like to see Northants lose the hosting of it - not for a couple of years anyway - and then only when their turn comes round to host the AEBBA Off-the-Spot, to make full use of the tables hired for the weekend.
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taffy
Distinguished Member
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Post by taffy on Feb 21, 2019 8:28:16 GMT
Yes for its second year Northants 4-Pin became re-badged as an AEBBA Alternative Rules event (the others of course being Off-the-Spot and Triangles). As such they can "go on tour" as you say. But we are talking 4-Pin here, and only half the affiliated counties show any interest in that version, so logic dictates that it won't need to move on so regularly. I would not like to see Northants lose the hosting of it - not for a couple of years anyway - and then only when their turn comes round to host the AEBBA Off-the-Spot, to make full use of the tables hired for the weekend.
That seems very sensible Chris and Tommo. people build things up sometimes to greater things than there individual parts. If things move on and Northampton has held up a beacon and grown the tournament then we should keep with them and if and when it does leave then to offer something for a period to repalce it seems a very worthy thing to do. It'll end up travelling yet, as it should with Sudbury the obvious first port of call, but that would put everything at sudbury = all three competitions. however, unlike 3-pin, we have a disconnect in the 4-pin version. out of 4 areas playing the game (we make a 5th provisionally) none of them are in contact with each other! Wellingborough, Gedney Hill and Norwich are not involved in anything to do with the EA open and maybe someone will tell me if they come a handful of miles down the road to Northampton? I ask Sudbury, please make this something you aim to change? our little tournament is just a pub tournament but it is significant in that it is the first thing we have done. unfortunately, other than one poster on the pub's FB page there has been no publicity in the pub despite countless posters being produced by yours truly....oh and a mention on our new 6-member FB page (aah! that's what swung it!). But we still have 10 people coming and 10 who are apologising. we are a long way off but these next 12-months will be interesting. I've asked the gedney hill people for a friendly but they really don't want to get involved, this is a wisbech trait in general BTW, if only you all knew the history of the fens and its people you would get it. They simply don't join in up there, they use the fens as a barrier and a shield against everything. I can't see a date for the national 4s presumably in September and presumably this time at the Masonic Hall Dave? 3-pin on a narrow I have GOT to see Steve!!! regards Taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 21, 2019 10:23:42 GMT
Taffy, Steve and myself have tried 3 pin on narrow tables and it is a totally different challenge, mainly because the break spot isn't set up for a 50-50 break shot with the two 50 holes closer together. We could of course adjust the spot to work put that seems pointless.
I can assure you that I have sent emails off to all the other 4 pin areas and only Norwich have ever replied and their response has been "we'll put the word around but not really interested" We have spoken about a weekend in Norfolk to give them a match and I'm pretty sure it will happen but again they are not too interested in a return match in Suffolk
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 21, 2019 10:25:42 GMT
Anyway this is all going
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stevehale
Full Forum Member
One day I will succeed - 26/3/22 I did!
Posts: 171
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Post by stevehale on Feb 21, 2019 12:02:23 GMT
Yes for its second year Northants 4-Pin became re-badged as an AEBBA Alternative Rules event (the others of course being Off-the-Spot and Triangles). As such they can "go on tour" as you say. But we are talking 4-Pin here, and only half the affiliated counties show any interest in that version, so logic dictates that it won't need to move on so regularly. I would not like to see Northants lose the hosting of it - not for a couple of years anyway - and then only when their turn comes round to host the AEBBA Off-the-Spot, to make full use of the tables hired for the weekend.
That seems very sensible Chris and Tommo. people build things up sometimes to greater things than there individual parts. If things move on and Northampton has held up a beacon and grown the tournament then we should keep with them and if and when it does leave then to offer something for a period to repalce it seems a very worthy thing to do. It'll end up travelling yet, as it should with Sudbury the obvious first port of call, but that would put everything at sudbury = all three competitions. however, unlike 3-pin, we have a disconnect in the 4-pin version. out of 4 areas playing the game (we make a 5th provisionally) none of them are in contact with each other! Wellingborough, Gedney Hill and Norwich are not involved in anything to do with the EA open and maybe someone will tell me if they come a handful of miles down the road to Northampton? I ask Sudbury, please make this something you aim to change? our little tournament is just a pub tournament but it is significant in that it is the first thing we have done. unfortunately, other than one poster on the pub's FB page there has been no publicity in the pub despite countless posters being produced by yours truly....oh and a mention on our new 6-member FB page (aah! that's what swung it!). But we still have 10 people coming and 10 who are apologising. we are a long way off but these next 12-months will be interesting. I've asked the gedney hill people for a friendly but they really don't want to get involved, this is a wisbech trait in general BTW, if only you all knew the history of the fens and its people you would get it. They simply don't join in up there, they use the fens as a barrier and a shield against everything. I can't see a date for the national 4s presumably in September and presumably this time at the Masonic Hall Dave? 3-pin on a narrow I have GOT to see Steve!!! regards Taffy To add to Dave's reply, before we announced the Open to everyone's this year we made concerted efforts to approach other 4 pin leagues about their interest in taking part. Norwich replied as Dave said but no one entered, whilst we had contact also with the Wellingborough crew, but again sadly no one enter even though there was interest there in the beginning. As a 4 pin association we are trying our hardest to try and get all 4 pin leagues on board and try to expand our version of the game, which, as you can see over the past few years, seems to have caught on in a lot of 3 pin areas. As for trying different styles of game, Dave and myself have also tried the Traingles version with 4 pins instead of 3. Tha's a fun and different way of spending a game, although it does take time to keep resetting the balls up once the table is cleared.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 12:53:07 GMT
Returning to topic, then, I would ask Northants to consider the following:
I reckon the AEBBA version needs to have more allure for true players of the game. You're not getting too many from Sudbury at the moment and none from your own 4-Pin enclave within Northamptonshire. And efforts from Sudbury to attract an interest from Fenland and from Norwich have not borne any fruit.
May I suggest, then, that next year (2020) you offer any Wellingborough-registered applicants a free entry: and to fund this put the fee up to £10 for the rest of us. A worthy gesture and one we can afford !
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Post by bobhall on Feb 21, 2019 13:27:19 GMT
Returning to topic, then, I would ask Northants to consider the following: I reckon the AEBBA version needs to have more allure for true players of the game. You're not getting too many from Sudbury at the moment and none from your own 4-Pin enclave within Northamptonshire. And efforts from Sudbury to attract an interest from Fenland and from Norwich have not borne any fruit.
May I suggest, then, that next year (2020) you offer any Wellingborough-registered applicants a free entry: and to fund this put the fee up to £10 for the rest of us. A worthy gesture and one we can afford !
No tommo not everyone can afford including cost of travel plus over night stay and if they wanna play they would enter like the rest of us the difference is they are scared to adapt to the game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 14:00:14 GMT
Returning to topic, then, I would ask Northants to consider the following: I reckon the AEBBA version needs to have more allure for true players of the game. You're not getting too many from Sudbury at the moment and none from your own 4-Pin enclave within Northamptonshire. And efforts from Sudbury to attract an interest from Fenland and from Norwich have not borne any fruit.
May I suggest, then, that next year (2020) you offer any Wellingborough-registered applicants a free entry: and to fund this put the fee up to £10 for the rest of us. A worthy gesture and one we can afford !
Hi All, Thank you for the numerous suggestions on how we can do things better. As you all know, we have sought to listen and will act on all those ideas which serve to enhance the event - such as increasing the entry number for 2019 by 20%. We hope that this increase in capacity is matched by the interest. There are one or two points of clarity that I'd like to make. The AEBBA 4-Pin Open Championships is not a Northants competition. True, it did start that way, but it has now been adopted - with the blessing of Northants - as a full AEBBA event. It is fully managed by the AEBBA but then run, by Northants colleagues on the day. As such, you should not get confused that this is 'another Alternative Rules event' - just using 4-Pin. The AEBBA Alternative Rules is a separate event - this year hosted in Bucks in June. It will again be played using the 'Triangle' setup as with last year. It is therefore intended that the AEBBA 4-PIn event exists entirely apart from the Alternate Rules Championships. They will co-exist but there are no plans for one to be part of, or played in the form of the other. We have talked for some years now about AEBBA events moving around the country and having 'Guest Hosts' - initially this has happened with the AEBBA Off the Spot Championships. It could happen with others too - nothing has been ruled in or out here, BUT - at the very centre of the decision making will be protecting and enhancing the playing and financial success of the event itself. I would be happy to discuss with any interested party their proposals for hosting an AEBBA event. The AEBBA will always consider options as to how best to increase our reach and have more participants engage in what we do. That is why we were glad to report that every AEBBA event (with the exception of the OTS - and Bournemouth but for different reasons) enjoyed higher entry numbers last year than in 2017. Most were up by more than 10%. It is always useful to find out what you would do, Clive, and what you think we should do - as with everyone else it helps to shape our thinking and reminds us of how far yet we have to improve what we do. I recognise that we have had a disappointing entry from 4-Pin players so far for this event, but the form has only been live for a few days. The fact that we have only have 15 spots left is testament to the enthusiasm from many. We have reached out proactively to friends in Sudbury, Wellingborough and elsewhere and I am optimistic that their representation will increase. Perhaps it is worth noting that you have not opted to enter this event yet? I would recommend that you do not leave it until it is too late! I would love to offer more financial incentives for people to enter our events - this one included. You may have noticed my much ignored pleas for sponsorship support - possibly the only thread on this forum that remains unresponded to - where people seem a little more shy about offering their thoughts. If we are to offer free entry to some for our events - we need to be extremely careful about the precedent it sets. After all - what if one of your friends from elsewhere decides that he/she cannot afford to subsidise another person's entry? Do we risk reducing the numbers we have worked so hard and invested so much in securing? Here's what I want to do - if you do decide to enter this year's event, I want to sit with you and buy you lunch and bottom out all of the areas where you feel we can do more. I promise to be open and eager to understand your perspective. Does that sound ok? Lorin
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Post by JB on Feb 21, 2019 14:21:23 GMT
Not sure scared to adapt is the right phrase
I love playing bar billiards but I have never played 4 pin or triangles. Not because I’m scared to adapt but because I have no interest in it at all (like a lot of other people I know)
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Post by bobhall on Feb 21, 2019 14:23:24 GMT
Not sure scared to adapt is the right phrase I love playing bar billiards but I have never played 4 pin or triangles. Not because I’m scared to adapt but because I have no interest in it at all (like a lot of other people I know) Its not about 3 pinners adapting its about 4pinners adapting to different table dimensions being played on standard tables and not narrow
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