Query - ball in motion

[joefoxon]

I was thinking about a hypothetical scenario in which a player plays at a ball that is still in motion from the previous shot. Clearly this is a loss of break foul under Rule 110h.

My query is, what if the ball in motion was heading towards the black pin? There is currently no specific rule to still cause the player to lose their entire score, the only thing mentioned is disturbing the mushroom itself, with either the hand or cue, and although clearly it is extremely unsporting, I could imagine a player trying it out of sheer desperation. Or is it a deliberate omission, so that the quicker-thinking player can get themselves out of trouble with only a small penalty?

[daveuk1]

I would like to think that no player would drop their standards that low.

[joefoxon]

Well of course, we always hope nobody will do such a thing, until they do, then they get away with it because there is no rule.

My proposal for such a rule would be under loss of entire score fouls

c) A player striking a ball such that any ball that is still in motion after the previous shot is irregularly interfered with

This means that there could be no argument about whether the ball would have hit the black or not, if you hit a still-moving ball, you lose your whole score. If you play a shot while balls are still moving, but don't disturb the moving ball(s), it's only loss of break.

[stevehale]

I, for one think that this would be a good addition to our existing rules. As Dave said, we'd like to think that no one would stoop so low as to even attempt it, but it is a loophole that could be exploited if someone could get a ball out of the tray and in position quick enough.
Excellent spot Joe👏👏👏

[daveuk1]

A player could just use his cue to deflect the ball away, but we play friendly and any player doing it would be reported to the league and delt with

[joefoxon]

I've reworded it to cover that eventuality. My point is that the rule should already be there in the first place. Its no good to a hypothetical team that loses the league title in this manner to be told "we'll deal with it later", surely?

[jelly]

It's relatively common that someone cueing up plays their shot too early by mistake,this ball could easily hit a ball still in motion. Your proposed rule would be too punitive for something that would normally only happen by accident.

[joefoxon]

What would you suggest as an alternative? It should be a clear black and white rule that isn't open to any interpretation at all?

[jelly]

May 17, 2019 7:40:55 GMT joefoxon said:

What would you suggest as an alternative? It should be a clear black and white rule that isn't open to any interpretation at all?

It's never been an issue so I don't think it really needs an addition, however it could be added that if in the opinion of the scorer the player played a foul shot which prevented the black peg from falling then it would be loss of score. There are plenty of other rules where it comes down to the scorers discretion so that would be sufficient here.

[joefoxon]

It's only not an issue until somebody does it. The reason I think it should be a black and white rule is because not all leagues mandate scorers, and the majority that do have them draw them from one of the teams. Why should something like this be left to the whims of someone that either isn't there, or is definitely supporting one team over the other?

[daveuk1]

Our league in Sudbury is a friendly 4 pin one but our rules do state that the home team must provide a scorer amd the away must have a checker and it is accepted that the two of them are in charge of the game in progress, if there are any disputes that they cant sort out its down to the two captains as well, if no agreement is reached it is then reported to the league committee to sort.

Having said that I can see where you are coming from and if it did happen them the rules would indicate a loss of break only, so there is a case of adding a rule in for loss of all score if a player deliberately causes a ball to move other than from a legally played shot. I think we have or will all see a player fumble a ball as he goes to place it on the D and it rolls up the table, in that case at worst its loss of break although I tend to think our players would just laugh, give the offending player the ball back and let them get on with it.

[Chris]

I believe there is a rule that states when a ball is in motion and another ball is struck it is a foul but that may be 3 pin only ??

In Portsmouth we also have a rule that the Black counts at all times very clear re Black rule - so even if you commit a foul before and the black goes down it counts and you lose your score … very clear rule that I agree with .. but I think we are the only county

[joefoxon]

The thing I'm querying is if the player avoids knocking over the black by playing a shot at the moving ball to deflect it away, this currently is only loss of break.

[daveuk1]

Chrissie, we also have a rule in four pin that staes if you play a shot when any ball is still in motion on the playing surface it is a foul shot and you lose your break.

Our rules also say regardless of the sequence of events if a player commits a combination of foul shots they shall suffer the greater penalty. And this is what Joe is trying to clarify as he quite rightly says a player could play a shot, see the ball is very likely to hit the black and so lose his entire score, but he could just knock the ball away using his cue of if he was quick enough play another ball to deflect the problem ball away, thus stopping the black from being knocked over, but under the rules as they are written he has only either played a the cue ball while another ball was still moving or caused a ball to move by means other than a correctly played shot and the penalty for those is only the loss of that break. It would be very unsportsmanlike and very unlikely to happen, but it could