Table-top 'Russian Billiards' table - info & rings wanted

[michaelcross]

I have recently resumed, after decades of the table being propped against a wall, using a very old table-top Russian Billiards table. It was always referred to as a 'Russian Billiards' table rather than a 'Bar Billiards' table.



I don't know exactly how old it is, as there is no date or maker's mark on it that I can see; I remember playing on it in the 60s when the family lived in Leicester so it is at least 50-something years old! i would like to know more about it.... age, manufacturer, etc if anyone here can help.

I have looked online but have not come across anything remotely similar apart from in an old thread on the British Bar Billiards forum (Table-top Bar Billiards) which mentions sightings on ebay and Youtube of various-sized table-top tables.



The baize area of the table is 4ft x 2 ft, it has the full complement of 9 holes (10, 20x2, 30x2, 50x2, 100, 200), arranged in the usual positions. The score values of the holes are marked in gold on the top of the wood surround, and on the top edge of back of the chute tray.



The table is not in pristine condition but it is good enough for our current level of skill, and we enjoy playing. The baize is slightly 'moth-eaten' in places, but not enough to spoil the play. The rubber in the cushions has gone hard over time, and there is no give.



There are 3 red mushrooms, which are usually placed in front of the 50 and 200 holes, although faint chalk crosses on the baize near the 100 hole suggest that mushrooms may have been placed on either side of that hole at times.



The leather(?) covering at the baulk end is triangular rather than rectangular.



If there was a D marked on the baize at the start position, it must have faded. Ditto the baulk line.



The pockets have wooden rings, which are of different colours: white (10, 20, 30), yellow (50), black (100) and red (200). The glue on the rings has solidified over the years and they have become loose; I have re-glued most of the ones we have. One of the white rings broke into pieces and has been taped back together, but the hole is now slightly too small for the ball to pass through freely so we have to play without it. Also, the red ring is completely missing!



I have been looking to find replacement rings for the re-assembled white and the missing red ones but without success. I have found many sites online selling a set of red plastic rings made by Perador but I don't think they will fit my table, as they are described as "Inner diameter of 55mm - Outer diameter of 66mm"; the rings I have have an outer diameter of c 47.5 mm at the top, and an inner diameter of less than 1.5 inches (the size of the balls).

Sav mentioned when he approved my registration, that you have had some success with 3D printing rings for standard tables; might it be 'easy' to scale those models to a smaller size? My immediate need is for 2 rings, if different colours are possible then they would be one white and one red. If the 3D route works, then I would probably go for a full set of nine so I have spares.

I have posted some text and pictures on a web page at Table-top Russian Billiards table. 

Thanks in advance for any info and/or help anyone may be able to provide.

Hi Michael and welcome to the Forum.

From the pictures your table looks in good nick, but it's only a 4' x 2' so is only really a toy table.

I have a 4' x 2' which my granddaughters played for fun, but everything seems in miniature when next to a full sized table (6' in length).

If you had said 5' x 3' and with a slate base, that would be a rarity, and what was billed as 'Russian Billiards'. My grandfather owned one (in New Malden) and the family hid under it while the bombs dropped during the blitz. It eventually copped one when no-one was at home !

I still have mine, which has a Joe Davis signature on it, and I believe they were commissioned by Gamleys and examples come up on eBay from time to time.

I had a disaster when our puppy got hold of the pins and chewed them to bits. However we have a very willing and able manufacturer of all sorts of replacement parts on the Forum (= "Alan Turner") and he was able to supply me with a new set to order and they really look the part !

I do not have any rings on mine by the way, so not as good as yours !

[barbelman]

Hello and welcome Michael

From the photos you supplied, it looks rather better than a toy with a hardwood surround, an antique scoreboard and a mid-century look about it. The triangular baulk line is a bit of a red-herring as from the shape of the cushions at the player's end, it looks as though the leatherette went all the way across as on a full size table. It may have been reduced during a baize replacement exercise for economic or availability reasons. Spares will be impossible to get as it is so small but I have seen very old tables with turned hardwood pockets and these may be suitable for home use. Anyone with a lathe should be able to do that for you?

Table top bar billiards was quite popular when I was growing up in the 1950s and indeed dining tables were available that converted into bar billiards tables (or snooker)

Good luck!!

[michaelcross]

Thanks for the replies.

Well, it's not a toy to me! I've never played on a full-size table, nor seen one 'in the flesh', so this is all I know. My 20 & 30 something nephews had never seen a bar billiards table until I pointed them at some 'how to play' videos on YouTube, and they're enjoying playing on it too.

Tommo, if the 3D printing possibility pans out, maybe you could get some rings that way? If it does work, I'd be interested in a full set rather than just replacing the two that are missing/broken.

I have an ex-colleague who has been learning woodturning for a couple of years who MAY be game to have a go, but he's the other side of the Pennines; I'm in East Yorkshire, he's in Lancashire. I could post him the repaired ring, plus one of the spare balls so he's what he's aiming for

[Chris_Sav]

The 3D printed rings have been in my league table all season thus far and have not raised any complaint.

However I'm waiting to get hold of the CAD file so that anyone can try. Given the outside diameter of an existing ring from your much derided table I would imagine it could be scaled. Only problem could be that the thickness of your rings might not be in proportion.

[michaelcross]

I've discovered that:

1. There are free and good 3D modelling design applications available, eg Tinkercad, Fusion 360, and Blender. There are also many tutorials online for those applications.

2. The city centre library in Hull has a MakerSpace with all sorts of facilities usable by the general public, for various fees. These include a 3D printer.

So I'm going to have a go at creating a 3D model of a ring for my table, then take it into the MakerSpace.

Sav, do you have any pictures of your 3D printed rings? In place, or not? I would still be interested in seeing the CAD file that was used your rings.

[michaelcross]

Long-overdue update... someone emailed me yesterday asking if I had made any progress - thanks Anthony!

I started learning how to use Tinkercad, and Fusion 360, and then tried to create a model of a ring. In 3D modelling terms, it seems fairly simple... just a ring. The complexity arises because of the way the inner surface is shaped, it isn't straight down, the ring is thinner at the top than at the bottom, and the curve is convex. Also, the outer edge isn't straight either, it tapers toward the base; that may not be crucial but probably DOES help prevent the ring falling down the hole.

I tried various ways, with different starting points, but none were satisfactory. I took what I had into the Makerspace, together with the taped together white ring, and a white ball. The 3D printing expert didn't really look at any of my attempts, he just started from a blank page, created a cylinder, then merged with part of a stretched-sphere shared hole. It looked fine in on-screen Tinkercad.

However, the results were disappointing, with various issues, I became discouraged, Covid happened, and I haven't really done anything on it since February. I've posted all the details, including a picture of the 3D-printed ring, at www.michaelcross.me.uk/billiards/

[Chris_Sav]

They look smaller than our rings? can you scale the file we have?

[michaelcross]

Oct 19, 2020 20:42:38 GMT Chris_Sav said:

They look smaller than our rings? can you scale the file we have?

I think it's worth a try.... could you post, or send me, the model you have?

[Chris_Sav]

Emailed, file is too big to attach here