COUNTY CHAMPIONSHIPS

[fazza]

nigels said:

Mind you with the ladies the week before I never got ahead of time and I still used 25 minutes per game for that.

I may be expected to make some sort of sexist comment here...but I won't!

[fazza]

nigels said:

I think if someone had made that request earlier it would be impossible to accommodate them, they would have to choose which competition out of the two they wished to enter. It is the same case with the over 50's and the grand prix being on the same day, players are asked to pick one or the other.

I am fairly certain that all players would choose to play in the more prestigious AE Singles, but is it fair to therefore bar him/her from playing for their county.

I asked a couple of people on the day which they would have chosen in this case, and they both said that they would have "insisted" on their right to have played in both, although, like you say, it would have been just about impossible.

If for example Cambridge are unfortunate enough to find themselves in Div 3 in future years, how would they be expected to play without their County's individual champion.

Much more likely, perhaps, if any County's B team included their County's individual champion. Players like Ray Sturgess and Leon Beer could easily have been Oxfordshire's representative, although 1 or both could be in the depleted A team next year.

But, the possibility is definitely there.

Therefore, I would suggest the combination of these events should not continue if this problem is going to be avoided in some future year.

fazza said:

If for example Cambridge are unfortunate enough to find themselves in Div 3 in future years, how would they be expected to play without their County's individual champion.

Why not then get it adopted in the rules that the third division while it exists shall be for 'second string' teams only ? It has already been established that 'C' teams are excluded, so make it so 'A' or 'solitary' teams can't drop into the third division either.

In the case of the 'B' team holding a County's champion, put the onus on the County to accommodate him in the 'A' team. Some time the organisers have to get tough - of which we know Nigel is capable ! ;D

[NigelS]

The problems you mention Pete, is part of the reason I was very much against the inclusion of B teams in the first place. It is also why, I suggested at the AGM that B teams should not be promoted into the upper divisions ensuring Cambs & Bucks safety in division 2 (basically what Tommo has just suggested) and the scenario that you mentioned not happening. I would have far rather had seperate B team competition, which is what we have for our 1 day inter league in Sussex. Oxon B will not come next year to finish bottom and will be intent on relegating an A side thats for sure.

If Bucks had gone down this year (which was a possibility going into the last game) they would have had to play without one county player if they wanted to play in the singles next year. I could not acomodate them to play in both competitions.

However, if we went back to the original calendar where we played each singles with their opposite county competitions we again have a problem. There is not enough hours in the day to play the Open County Champs and the Ladies Singles in one day with 10 teams. And also do I really want to come up to Reading and run a whole day for just 3 or 4 teams on a third Sunday? And will the ladies be happy going back to playing just 3 games - maybe the Kent girls will as I think 6 games left them exhausted ;), but I know a lot of the ladies liked playing 6 games with less long breaks. Or am I to run both singles on a 4th Sunday - no thank you! I think I have more questions than answers here at the moment!

The trouble is if I come to the AGM with a proposal that in effect bans the B sides, it is now going to upset a lot of people. Oxon will rightly fell aggreived, as will the other counties that have entered this year. But it leads me to ask the question "What reason did we have for allowing the B sides in in the first place?" Was it to ensure the future of the County Champs - well no it wasn't. It has run fine for the last 13 or so years with the 9 teams that still participated this year. B sides were just not necessary, we have just expanded the competion from 9 teams to 14 without good reason and as I predicted it has caused problems.

With no A side relegated for next year, I personally will not change the calendar, unless forced to do so by proposal at an AGM, as I think if someone has the choice of playing for their B side or the singles they will have to make that choice I am afraid, that person should have made their A side if they wanted to play in both (perhaps that is harsh but it is tough I'm afraid). However, I agree it is a different matter when an A side is relegated. If such a situation arises, as TD I will do my best to accomodate, and may insist on doing the draw beforehand, to allocate tables and times after the draw is done which is much more doable - but that is all for the future.

Are we not worrying unnecessarily ? It seems to be working perfectly at the moment.
All you need to do is propose that A teams can't be relegated below Div 2 and the fail-safe is in place.
This would ratify the decision made this year over Bucks coming back in and not having to start at the bottom, and vastly reduce the likelihood of a champion being double-booked on the AEBBA Singles day.
It's not rocket-science ! ;D

[milhouse]

tommo said:

Are we not worrying unnecessarily ? It seems to be working perfectly at the moment.
All you need to do is propose that A teams can't be relegated below Div 2 and the fail-safe is in place.
This would ratify the decision made this year over Bucks coming back in and not having to start at the bottom, and vastly reduce the likelihood of a champion being double-booked on the AEBBA Singles day.
It's not rocket-science ! ;D

But what happens if someone from a county B team qualified ? I think its very unfair to either have to make them play in the A team or to choose which competition to play in. With the strength of the Oxfordshire county teams, this could be a very realistic problem come next year.

Agreed that looking at Oxon and the players they have in the 'B' (Sturgess/Collins/Beer) the champion could easily come from the 'B's. Even Milhouse if he's got that good by then !!! ;D

However, Oxon B are in Div 2 next year which plays on the same day as Div 1 - so as we say, No Problem !

A situation could arise a year later (2008) resultant from how Oxon B perform in 2007: in the unlikely event of them having finished bottom they would be relegated and the hypothetical question about the champion then arises.
But if they don't finish last it would - as Nigel pointed out - send down an 'A' team into Division 3. Unless we adopt the line that 'A' teams can't go down further than Div 2 : In this eventuality the third division would have to remain static for a further year (without a team being promoted).

This is what we need to sort out with a ruling sooner rather than later.

[NigelS]

Tommo, I am glad you think it is all working perfectly at the moment ;D

However, I do share Pete's concerns that eventually a situation may arise that forces someone not to play for their county.

It is a case of lets cross that bridge when we come to it, but I don't think we can draw a line for A teams not to be relegated at this stage. If say, Oxon B don't finish last next year, bottom spot will be occupied by an A side for certain. If we don;t relegate them, is anyone going to turn up for division 3 two weeks later without the reward of promotion on offer for the winners? This is certainly something that needs discussion at the AGM I think.

Tommo, I wish you were there to back me up last year at the AGM and we could have had the 'divsion 3' simply as a B team competition, for B teams only. No promotion would have been on offer, the reward of winning would be becoming being the national champion B side and for the players a chance to impress playing for their county. However, it has gone too far for that now, a rule change at this stage will certainly upset the Oxon B boys, expecting to play in division 2 next year.

I didn't really want to enter a debate with you Nigel, you are the one running it. :o I was merely offering support. :-/
But you seem intent on highlighting a problem where there needn't be one. ;)
Surely, a degree of flexibility needs to be there. Suppose for instance instead of more teams all the time, interest waned a bit and Div 3 went down to just two teams. Not likely to happen now, of course but it did seem possible at one point. You would be obliged to revert to two divisions and have six in each, yes ?
It would lengthen the days' play but you'd do it as the best available option. But now you might have a different mix of A and B teams, which would set promotions and relegations into a melting pot for future competitions.
All I'm saying is don't tie your own hands now, but while remaining flexible, establish some principles that can be adhered to throughout. You can't look too far ahead of what might happen, but slipping in the one about A teams not ever going down to Div 3 seems a good one (I'm not the first to suggest it, surely ?) - and might even one day help Sussex at the rate they are slipping ! ;D ;D ;D

[milhouse]

tommo said:

You can't look too far ahead of what might happen, but slipping in the one about A teams not ever going down to Div 3 seems a good one (I'm not the first to suggest it, surely ?) - and might even one day help Sussex at the rate they are slipping ! ;D ;D ;D

But what would happen if an A team finished bottom of Div 2 ? Would no teams from Div 3 get promoted ? What incentive is there to play if you are not playing for the title and promotion ?

[NigelS]

tommo said:

I didn't really want to enter a debate with you Nigel, you are the one running it. :o I was merely offering support. :-/

Tommo, I appreciate your support, and one thing we both agree on is that a seperate B team competition would have probably been a better option. I always think it is a good idea to have in mind what may happen in the future, but as I said before we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I don't think there is any need to change the calendar for next year - if someone wants to play in both division 3 and their all england singles, lets just say it would be advisable for them to tell me beforehand so I could try to accomodate, although I couldn't make any promises.

As before I have said that as TD I will make decisions that try to accomodate every as best that I can and as fairly as possible. Although I am still learning at this TD lark, I feel that thankfully all competitions reached their conclusions without any real controvesy.

milhouse said:

But what would happen if an A team finished bottom of Div 2 ? Would no teams from Div 3 get promoted ? What incentive is there to play if you are not playing for the title and promotion ?

Just to answer Milhouse - not disagreeing with anything that Nigel has just said. Mark, that's exactly what we're saying - promotion would have to be foregone that year. (This year Oxon B go up irrespective, as Kent B go down in case you didn't realise.) Anyway the incentive is in representing your county; playing at a high level; performing better than anyone else on the day; trying to win the Div 3 title; in doing so finishing top; seeing it recorded on the Forum AND on the AEBBA website; and maybe earning some ranking points along the way. And of course in the taking part; enjoying a great day; playing on tournament standard tables; socialising in great company. Incentive enough ?

[fazza]

I feel that this particular debate has become far too important for it to remain on the Oxfordshire board only.

Could I respectfully request a switch by the powers-that-be to General, so that everyone can see it and hopefully join in?

Steady on Pete,

I object to anything I've been involved in by way of discussion being looked on as being "important". ;D ;D ;D

[barbelman]

tommo said:

milhouse said:

But what would happen if an A team finished bottom of Div 2 ? Would no teams from Div 3 get promoted ? What incentive is there to play if you are not playing for the title and promotion ?

Just to answer Milhouse - not disagreeing with anything that Nigel has just said. Mark, that's exactly what we're saying - promotion would have to be foregone that year. (This year Oxon B go up irrespective, as Kent B go down in case you didn't realise.) Anyway the incentive is in representing your county; playing at a high level; performing better than anyone else on the day; trying to win the Div 3 title; in doing so finishing top; seeing it recorded on the Forum AND on the AEBBA website; and maybe earning some ranking points along the way. And of course in the taking part; enjoying a great day; playing on tournament standard tables; socialising in great company. Incentive enough ?

Well said Tommo! A bit of common sense at last. The honour of playing for your county (at any level) is still an honour in my book. (and not a right as some seem to think)
There were a lot of snide comments floating around concerning the composition of the Oxon B side this year but by winning our division, we vindicated the selector's choice and were very pleased to do so.
The counties should play against each other (A teams if you like) in two sections with promotion/relegation with a seperate competition for those counties that feel they can support a B Team but NO promotion/relegation between the lower A section and the B section.
Counties should then use this B section as a training ground for new blood and not pick old f*rts like me! :'(

Tony