Hail the King !

[Josie]

tommo said:

I'm sure that you will face a lot of opposition in the form of the Redhill Singles being the "Open Singles" and therefore a better competition - which you know and I know is a load of rubbish. It became thus really so that Gail Woods (who was as strong a player as any man) could enter. But she lives abroad now so it may as well revert back.

Oh dear - where to begin. Tommo I was agreeing with you on this point until the above comment!!! ;) Surrey has always supported the ladies very well - and have allowed them to enter certain events that other counties don't. I know Gail is one of the only women to have won it so far - but if I have anything to do with it she won't be the last!!!! 8-) I'd also love the chance to play in the "Open" All England Singles in October!!!!!! ;)

martinpellett said:

You help to make my point, the county team is picked by the county sec and does not always reflect the best players around, some don't want to play for the county and some just get ignored, it took me over 20 years to get picked and was when I was not playing my best bar billiards.

Take a look at the names on the on the open singles trophy and you will see how hard it is to win and that the names on there represent the best players in the league

Martin - the County Singles should always be between the best players in the league. I understand others are asked to enter if certain players don't want to play in it - but no wonder they don't if they don't get the privilige of representing their county as a reward for winning it. I really just don't see the point of them now! If to play in the All England Singles was there as a reward for winning - then all the good players would enter and it would be the competition it once was.

I am going to propose that if the County Singles takes place then the winners of that should represent their county as a matter of course. If it doesn't take place, then the next best singles winners (league) should go in their place. If they can't agree to that - then maybe the League Singles winners should play off against the County Singles winners for the right to go to the All England.

How does that sound??? :o

[Martin Pellett]

Josie

the county singles has never been a competition that has meant anything in Surrey it was just a way of getting use out of the tables booked for the Dutch open and now the the Limes Tripples and to give the county team some pratice on match tables. The open singles and Ladies singles champions have always represented Surrey at the All England finals. Sussex send the county champion who has won a competition between all the singles champions from the different leagues not a winner from a competetion from just their county squad.

[Josie]

martinpellett said:

Josie

the county singles has never been a competition that has meant anything in Surrey it was just a way of getting use out of the tables booked for the Dutch open and now the the Limes Tripples and to give the county team some pratice on match tables. The open singles and Ladies singles champions have always represented Surrey at the All England finals. Sussex send the county champion who has won a competition between all the singles champions from the different leagues not a winner from a competetion from just their county squad.

Well Martin - I'm really glad that I and others worked so hard and strived so hard to win something that means nothing and that the tables didn't go to waste that day!!!! ;) 8-)

As you know Surrey is, unfortunately, based around one league. Therefore we can't get all the singles winners to play off against each other. But that was, if you recall, part of my proposal that maybe the County Singles winner and the League winners play off against each other. I'm not asking for an automatic pass to the All England - I'm happy to play my way there. If the competition I have played in counts for nothing - then maybe another competition needs to be organised!!!!

I understand what you are saying and that it's always been that way. I'm speaking as somebody who has won both (and, for that matter, the All England Ladies as well!!!!). I've always worked harder to win County than I've ever done for league. Although winning the league singles is nice, I'd much rather have the county title any day!!!! Maybe, just maybe, it's been run this way for long enough and needs to be reviewed!!! It can't hurt to discuss it!!!

Josie x

[Martin Pellett]

Josie

The open singles and Ladies singles has always been regarded as the the county singles because Redhill is the only league in Surrey. All I am saying is you cannot send the winners of a competition that is by invite only and has not been played regulary over the years.

Guys ! (And I include you in that Josie as you obviously want to put the men to shame and win our competition)

I would have preferred to have been left out of this one as I have no particular axe to grind on the subject, nor any desire to wash our dirty linen in public.

However, Martin seems determined to engage us in a debate, so I will take up on a couple of points.

Firstly, just 'cos things have always been done one way doesn't mean that they can't ever change: A case in point is that two very smart trophies have recently been commissioned for the County Singles and are at present at the engravers to have Josie and Kevin's names added.

Secondly I take umbrage at the hint that the County Team isn't selected from the best players available. I agree that some 'donkeys' may have been picked to play for Surrey in bygone years: Simon Tinto's "50 Year History of the Redhill League" provides a full list of those selected up to 1998, and looking at it there are several names there who regularly play in Redhill's lower division. But at the moment, it's virtually the same side as the Redhill A side which recently carried off the Sussex Interleague title in the face of very stiff opposition. A noticeable absentee is Simon Tinto who would indeed add strength to the squad, but chooses not to take part at present, but a place would certainly be found for him if he ever changed his mind. The players are certainly experienced enough at the required level and do not really need an extra trial or competition before taking part, there is already so much bar billiards.

Finally, the suggestion of a competition to fill in a spare slot to make use of operator's tables - this may have been the case in the past, put not so now - Redhill is geared up to capacity with its all-day events and team invitations. The problem now is an opposite one - getting the first-ever 'Surrey Open' off the ground. When the idea was conceived, there were plans to stage it at a plush hotel somewhere in Reigate - however now, if it is ever to take place, one of the existing events may have to be shelved, to take advantage of the maximum number of tables while we have them.

[SirKT]

martinpellett said:

Josie

Sussex send the county champion who has won a competition between all the singles champions from the different leagues not a winner from a competetion from just their county squad.

Hi Martin
your statement above is incorrect.
Sussex do run separate County singles competitions. I know because i was fortunate to win this years`.
League singles winners were probably a thing of the past.

[NigelS]

sirkt said:

Hi Martin
your statement above is incorrect.
Sussex do run separate County singles competitions. I know because i was fortunate to win this years`.
League singles winners were probably a thing of the past.

Just to add to that Martin, Sussex has always sent its county champion to the All England, if they decline the runner up is invited. The tournament where the league singles winners ply off was our county champion of champions sadly (as Tommo will tell you) discontinued in 2001. Also we have the Sussex Masters for the top 24 ranked players in Sussex. All 3 are Sussex titles in their own right and very prestigious, but only becoming county champion grants the invite to the All England.

[to be read in conjunction with Nigel's post which preceded this by a matter of minutes]

Very true Sir knight, like the new avatars by the way. ;)

But it should also be added that the competition described by Martin - where all the league's champions used to play off to find the Champion-of-champions - used to exist. I have long advocated its return, and I think I have almost won Nigel round to a similar way of thinking (as I believe he was the last person ever to win it).

The Sussex County Singles has always been the qualifier for the All-England though, and was always considered the most prestigious to win.

[NigelS]

tommo said:

I have long advocated its return, and I think I have almost won Nigel round to a similar way of thinking (as I believe he was the last person ever to win it).

Yes I do agree that I would like to see this competition back as we have discussed before. Sadly I wan't the last winner - I lost to John Slee in the 2001 final. After beating him in the group stages, I put the break down 4 times on my opening break in the final.

[SirKT]

If we could get it started again Nigel & Tommo, is there room in the Sussex calendar nowadays to fit it in ?

It was a great competition, KT, if only for the fact that it brought some focus onto habitual champions from the more far-flung leagues of Sussex. Hastings for instance threw up a procession of pretty formidable players.

For the first half of the competition's life it was played off as an evening 'straight knockout' competition at a chosen pub.

Then for the second half of its life it became an all-day event with groups and qualifications and complicated points system which IMHO removed a lot of its charm. I can appreciate the sentiment of trying to ensure that the best player was likely to win by this method, but it ruined the competition as a spectator-friendly event: I remember giving up a Saturday's pay to go down to Worthing to support John Turner and chalk his games and the atmosphere was like a morgue.

I've taken part in the event myself under both formats and much preferred the intimacy of the evening competition. Pubs I remember playing at included the Beach Hotel and the John Seldon. All you need is a nice pub with a table (Three Horseshoes ?) and draft in one extra table for the evening.

[NigelS]

If it were to come back I would prefer to see Group stages plus a final, much like the All England Singles. KO tournaments are fine when you have 32+ competitors, but the C of C would only have 10 max.

Also the ladies comp should be revived as well which will need to be considered if finding a venue as it would best to play all on the same day.

Having played in the last one in 2001, the sad fact is that 4 out of the 10 Sussex Leagues failed to send a representative that day, even though they had all agreed to send one, and this was much to Alan Messer's frustration. It shouldn't be hard for each league to find a willing player to play, if the singles winner can't make it, then the runner up should be asked. If this competition was ever to get off the ground again it would need the support of all the leagues in Sussex.

It is a shame that a tournament that was over 30 years old was dicontinued mainly because leagues couldn't get their acts together to send just one player from their league. There are some great names on the trophy- I am sure you will recognise the following players who hold the record of 3 wins each - Jim Millward, Terry Race, Gareth Lloyd and Peter Gibbs

nigels said:

If it were to come back I would prefer to see Group stages plus a final, much like the All England Singles. KO tournaments are fine when you have 32+ competitors, but the C of C would only have 10 max.

You weren't listening to me, were you Nigel ? ;D
The competition was killed by being held on too grand a scale:
You have to see it as the other leagues other than Brighton, Worthing and maybe Littlehampton see it: Those coming from far and wide found it tough going coming to the coast to slog away for a whole day and quite often end up as cannon fodder.

This would be okay if the reward for winning the Champion of Champions were to be the qualification for the All-England, but as we were quick to point out to Martin, it isn't. (Maybe it should be - it seems more logical !) But it was a lot more fun when it was held as an evening event in a nice pub. A draw beforehand, the chance of a Bye in the first round maybe and a chance of a surprise appearance in the Final for someone. 8-)

If you re-instate the same tired old format, you'll run into exactly the same problems as before.

[Martin Pellett]

Nige/Tommo

sorry I got the format wrong for Sussex but am I still right in thinking the Sussex County singles is open to all that want to enter and not just county players.

Martin,
Here's how I stand on the Surrey qualification.

I have nothing against the winner of the Redhill Open Singles - be it male or female - representing Surrey at the AEBBA event, all the time that there is not anything masquerading as a (higher) County Singles.

If the County Singles is a misnomer for a Masters Competition - which to all intents and purposes it is - then it should be renamed as such. End of problem.

[Josie]

tommo said:

It would be interesting to have Jukesey's angle on the matter - had he won the final of the "County Singles", would he have expected to be representing Surrey at Reading ?

I asked Jukesey this last night Tommo! He said something along the lines of "No - he wouldn't have expected to represent Surrey at Reading - the league singles winner does that and it should remain like that. It's been like that for 35 years why would we want to change it".

Also, Jan Taylor was there (this year's ladies league singles winner). She said if the qualification wasn't through the singles then she wouldn't have entered - but would have entered the county singles instead. Kind of proves my point really!!!! ;) ;D

Interesently though - she wasn't invited to play in the "Open" county singles this year or last. And was right towards the top both years. I don't know why (I have nothing to do with the organisation any more!) but it would be interesting to find out why people aren't being invited - surely it's not because she's a lady!!! :o

[Martin Pellett]

Josie,

This just proves what I have been saying all along, you can't just enter the county singles you have to be invited therefore if Jan had not been invited she would not be able to play in it. As to your point about her being a lady and not being picked for the county team also backs up what I have been saying, the county squads are not always made up of the best players in the league and are down to one or two individuals own preferences

A bit of a bugger's muddle isn't it Josie ?

First of all, there were separate County Singles for ladies and men, they weren't 'Opens' - you should know, you won one of them !

And I can empathise with Jan's sentiment of only entering the one which qualifies her for a crack at the All-England.

The whole episode has come as a complete shock to me - It's only now that I realise I have been entering the wrong competition all along......Next year I will be entering the Open Singles !

I just feel for the Reaper, who was inveigled into entering a competition with the false promise of rewards on the horizon. I'm still chuffed that he won though ! And both of you are the 'senior' champions in my eyes. 8-) 8-)

martinpellett said:

As to your point about her being a lady and not being picked for the county team also backs up what I have been saying, the county squads are not always made up of the best players in the league and are down to one or two individuals own preferences

Martin,

Jan was picked for the county last year but only for the B's to begin with and understandably declined (the politest way I can find to put it).
As I understand it, the error has been rectified this year and she will be playing for Surrey A Ladies.

As a moderator on this board I would ask you to refrain from any personal attacks on the Surrey selection committee, which I believe consists of DC, Terry Oakley and Colin Robbins - the best possible hands in my opinion.

[Martin Pellett]

Tommo

I made no personal attack on anyone, only stated a fact, certain players make themself uavailable and therefore the selectors pick who they think fit to play. I named no names and am great freinds with both Terry and Dave who have done a great job for the league over many years. I am also a life vice president of the league and served on the committee for many years and would never dream of naming names like you have just done.

Martin,
I accept that no personal attack was made, but you have to be careful with veiled references - for how it comes across to others.
It is a fact of life that very rarely does the perfect team make itself available - we are not alone in this ! - and often the most practical team has to be settled upon, which contains the keenest and ablest players for the job.
I have played for Surrey for 3 years and in that time cannot recollect any of my teammates being out of their depth or letting the side down.

[Martin Pellett]

Tommo

I was not criticizing the selectors, only pointing out that it is their own choice as to who plays for the county from those players that make themselves available and that because some players do not wish to play for the county, the county team is not always made up of the best players in Surrey and therefore the county singles title which is only played for by those in the county squad is not the premier singles title.

[Chunky Monkey]

martinpellett said:

Josie,

This just proves what I have been saying all along, you can't just enter the county singles you have to be invited therefore if Jan had not been invited she would not be able to play in it. As to your point about her being a lady and not being picked for the county team also backs up what I have been saying, the county squads are not always made up of the best players in the league and are down to one or two individuals own preferences

Martin i was not invited either, i asked if was able to enter haveing reached 13th in the players list.

[Mark James]

martinpellett said:

Nige/Tommo

am I still right in thinking the Sussex County singles is open to all that want to enter and not just county players.

Martin, a brief explanation of the Sussex comps from the outgoing Competition Secretary...

The Sussex singles is divided into two separate competitions, one each for male & female players, both played on a one-day basis at the same venue.

In order to be eligible to enter, a player must be a registered member of a team which plays in a SCBBA-affiliated league during the season in question, (excluding the two associate member leagues of Redhill & Tunbridge Wells, but players from those leagues are also eligible if they play for a team in one of the full-member leagues as well).

Anyone who satisfies the above can take part, in recent years the entry has been approx. 45-48 players in the Mens, 7-10 in the Ladies.

In the event of the competition being won by a player whose county allegiance is not Sussex (e.g. if Surrey county player Geoff Jukes were to win), then that player would not be selected (or indeed eligible) to represent Sussex in the AE singles.

In such a case, the runner-up would be the Sussex AE representative, although this situation has not as yet arisen.

martinpellett said:

Tommo

I was not criticizing the selectors, only pointing out that it is their own choice as to who plays for the county from those players that make themselves available and that because some players do not wish to play for the county, the county team is not always made up of the best players in Surrey and therefore the county singles title which is only played for by those in the county squad is not the premier singles title.

Martin,
Your above statement holds up if taken at face value. However, I'd like to know who, apart from Simon Tinto, withholds their entry from the County Singles ?

It is also mischievous to belittle the County Singles competition, Geoff Jukes was absolutely elated when he won it a couple of years ago after many years of trying. Likewise, Dave Constable was a very worthy County Champion a year ago, and I would not like to see anything taken from him for that.

Whilst I agree that in the circumstances, this year the Redhill Open Winner should represent the county at All-England, as that is the way it has always been done, I gained the impression that the County Singles was being built upon as an event, and I would support Josie's move for a change next year. If not, the competition should be re-billed as the Masters in future years which would then end any argument.

Please, no more talk about the county team not being made up of the best players in Surrey: Not only is it insulting and bad for morale, but the statement applies throughout the game. For example, Terry Race and Jim Millward to not currently feature in the Sussex team, but I'm sure a place would be made for them if they did make themselves available.

[Martin Pellett]

Tommo

I am not belittling it as a comp I would have loved to have won it, but if you look at Mark James post above you will see that the Sussex County Singles is an open comp open to all registerd players in Sussex not just county players. It would be better if our county singles was renamed the Masters and the top 16 players in the rankings asked to parcipitate.

I represented Surrey as a county player and was very proud to do so over a number of years and the team was never the same twice due to people not being available therefore the team was never the strongest that could be put out, this does not take anything away from the acheivements of those that were picked and played and no way is my statement insulting its just a fact of life

I think we have at last found some common ground, Martin.

We agree on the function that the County Singles fulfills in its exisiting state - that of a Masters. It is just a shame that those who battled away so heroicly to take the titles were not aware of the fact at the time.

I was won round quite a while back on the Open Singles aspect - if it's a 35-year tradition no cause to change it without good reason. I will certainly be rooting for Jimmy Greenstead, the current champion when he represents Surrey at Reading.

We even agree that the ultimum team rarely becoming available is a fact of life - not just for Surrey.

Whatever has happened in the past, Surrey will be giving it our best shot at Reading, although my money's on Oxford 'B' winning Div 2 this year and giving the administrators a headache.

So can we call a truce between the Surrey Life Vice-President and the Sussex one ? ;) ;D ;D