Replacement Bar Billiard Table Pocket Rings

[Chris_Sav]

I have had a few enquiries recently about getting hold of pocket rings, the only ones apparently available are those on sale at Mercury Leisure and Peradon etc. These are shallower and thinner than those we are used to, almost an easydrop profile. I have had a search and have been unable to find any for those who have asked.

I thus made some enquiries today and my knowledgeable friend from the well renowned Stelling Minnis gave me some bad news. Apparently the only mould in existence was owned by Bar Billiards Ltd. It cost a fortune to make and was held by the company that did the mouldings for Bar Billiards Ltd. Not only did Bar Billiards Ltd go bust, so did the injection moulding company. The one and only mould was skipped.

I feel a project coming on next winter!

Sav

[barbelman]

The available pockets are also a bigger internal diameter than the norm.  Masters/Peradon ones on the left.

Tony

Attachments:

[The Bridesmaid]

Hi all i have spent all week trying to find out where to get pockets for tables. Now the size we need in guernsey is 62mm top to 60mm bottom diameter, i think i have the answer for pockets and if it works who and how many pockets are needed? i`m going to have 15 sets of 9 pockets made for us, nigel ryall and sav i think will be interested just post me how many and i will see what i can do. cost will be posted once i know.

cheers champs

[Chris_Sav]

Feb 15, 2013 21:20:32 GMT The Bridesmaid said:

Hi all i have spent all week trying to find out where to get pockets for tables. Now the size we need in guernsey is 62mm top to 60mm bottom diameter, i think i have the answer for pockets and if it works who and how many pockets are needed? i`m going to have 15 sets of 9 pockets made for us, nigel ryall and sav i think will be interested just post me how many and i will see what i can do. cost will be posted once i know.

cheers champs

You won't find any apart from the slimline ones a few companies are offering.

It's not the outside diameter that's important it's the internal profile. mainland pocket rings are 48.50mm inner width while Jersey are 51mm. That makes a big difference in the way the ball drops. The Jersey pockets drop much cleaner, hence why they play two down / one up and pot. You cannot do that easily om mainalnd tables as the first ball rarely drops before the second one gets there.

If you do find any of the original pocket rings they were all made 64mm and had to be filed down (ask Lorin!!) for Jelkes and Sams slates. That left the outside smooth and more difficult to fit (like a bald tyre)

I've been trying to get one turned with the correct 62mm outer width with the ribs they should have but with the mainland inner profile, but without success so far. Curt Driver has my samples.

Let me know what you are planning please

Sav

[The Bridesmaid]

Hi sav

i`m going to get the sizes turned out exactly what guernsey and jersey rings are, if you want me to see about different sizes for you i will.
Going to see the guy monday so put the sizes down you want and i`ll ask for you and find out cost.

champs

[Chris_Sav]

How did you get on Ian?

I now have an offer to make a mould for proper sized mainland rings.

Sav.

[The Bridesmaid]

Hi sav

Been to pick up my rings today and they are spot on, i can not fault them.

I also asked if they could do outside diameter of 62mm and inner the size of mainland rings, he said no problem at all, i asked him to make mine and he said they would be ready by the end of the week..... i picked them up same day which was excellent.

They are fitted on the table i am recovering for the guernsey open and look spot on.

let me know the inside diameter of yours and i can get some made up for you, the more we make the cheaper he will do them

champs

[scotty]

One of my pocket rings is a little proud, but just a little, very very little. But once a month it is noticable during play. I do not know whether I should "hammer-it-in" or not. I had thought of replacing it, but quickly realised that this is not so easy, which this forum confirms, old mould skipped.
Before I start messing around with my basically perfectly good table, I like to ask can the rings be hammerd back in, or are they glued or fixed somehow?
Should I repalce the ring or is it more work than value?

[barbelman]

Oct 21, 2013 16:59:18 GMT scotty said:

One of my pocket rings is a little proud, but just a little, very very little. But once a month it is noticable during play. I do not know whether I should "hammer-it-in" or not. I had thought of replacing it, but quickly realised that this is not so easy, which this forum confirms, old mould skipped.
Before I start messing around with my basically perfectly good table, I like to ask can the rings be hammerd back in, or are they glued or fixed somehow?
Should I repalce the ring or is it more work than value?

Hi Scotty and welcome to the Forum.
The rings are very reusable (and indeed have to be!)  They are usually fixed in with Plaster of Paris and can easily be removed with a series of  taps on a wooden block placed over the underneath of the pocket but you really have to remove the slate for this.  

If it's only a fraction of a millimetre that the pocket is proud you COULD try very gentle tapping on the TOP of the pocket but be aware that it may break the seal with the Plaster of Paris and the pocket liner will become loose.  Use a round wooden screwdriver handle resting on the radius of the pocket and tap VERY gently (working slowly round the pocket) to see if there is any movement to put it back where it belongs.  It should just be below the slate level but if  tapped too far in, the cloth will wear very quickly.

I'll post a picture of what I mean when I can find them.....

Tony

[scotty]

Thankx.


Scotty

[scotty]

Hello,

A picture would be great.

My pockets I think are fixed differently.

On my table, it seems to be that the pocket through which the ball drops, consists of an upper ring and lower ring, concentrically meeting some where in the middle of the slate.

The lowest vertical position of the upper pocket ring is determined by the vertical position of the second lower ring, i.e. Where or when they contact and of course by how far they can be phisically push-in from the top. By feeling inside the pocket there seems in some pockets to be a gap between the upper and lower rings. The lower ring seems to be held in place by three large flat-head tacks, nailed into the wood which is fixed widwise on the underside of the slate?

I think the vertical position of the lower ring is determined, either by:

"how far upwards" is it push by the flat tacks or

it is fixed vertically by its lower outer rim contacting the wood in whcih it is fixed.


Any comments please.

[bjc]

Feb 16, 2013 20:37:50 GMT The Bridesmaid said:

Hi sav

i`m going to get the sizes turned out exactly what guernsey and jersey rings are, if you want me to see about different sizes for you i will.
Going to see the guy monday so put the sizes down you want and i`ll ask for you and find out cost.

champs

Hello from the US!

You guys seem to know more about this than just about anything else I can find on the web.  Of course, finding information on this game in the States is nearly impossible.  

I'm currently refelting a Sam's Brothers table (circa 1930's), and have been looking everywhere for appropriately sized replacement pocket rings.  I managed to get the original (Bakelite?) plastic rings out (the brown ring below), but noticed that at least 3 of the rings have chips in various locations.  We purchased a replacement set from Master's (the larger red version below), but as everyone else has indicated, they are far too big and can't be used.  

Aside from fixing the chips with some sort of epoxy, or even having a set (or partial set) 3D printed, you seem to be the lone online lead for these parts.  I know I'm only 18 months late on the thread, but I don't suppose you still have any leads for these?

Cheers,
Andrew
Seattle, WA USA

[barbelman]

Nov 10, 2014 17:18:17 GMT bjc said:

Feb 16, 2013 20:37:50 GMT The Bridesmaid said:

Hi sav

i`m going to get the sizes turned out exactly what guernsey and jersey rings are, if you want me to see about different sizes for you i will.
Going to see the guy monday so put the sizes down you want and i`ll ask for you and find out cost.

champs

Hello from the US!

You guys seem to know more about this than just about anything else I can find on the web.  Of course, finding information on this game in the States is nearly impossible.  

I'm currently refelting a Sam's Brothers table (circa 1930's), and have been looking everywhere for appropriately sized replacement pocket rings.  I managed to get the original (Bakelite?) plastic rings out (the brown ring below), but noticed that at least 3 of the rings have chips in various locations.  We purchased a replacement set from Master's (the larger red version below), but as everyone else has indicated, they are far too big and can't be used.  

Aside from fixing the chips with some sort of epoxy, or even having a set (or partial set) 3D printed, you seem to be the lone online lead for these parts.  I know I'm only 18 months late on the thread, but I don't suppose you still have any leads for these?

Cheers,
Andrew
Seattle, WA USA

Hi Andrew

The pockets are probably the most precious things on the table (along with the  timing mechanism) as the original injection moulds have been lost, I am led to understand.  As long as they are not split around the diameter they will still be very usable and if there are any splits then run some epoxy into the cracks as it may cause leakage problems when you set the rings in Plaster of Paris after fixing.  Any superficial damage or scratches on the surface of the ring will not affect play too much.  I doubt whether any set of rings in this country is perfect in that respect!

Someone (in the Channel Islands) has had some turned I believe and, like you, I looked into the possibility of 3D printing them but the relative cost is quite prohibitive for a small volume.  I do thing 3D is the way to go though.....

Welcome to the Forum

Tony

[bjc]

Tony,

I think you're probably right about the 3D printing, which may be far more viable than it was when this post was originally created. I did actually find a fairly high-tech craft shop in town with a Makerbot 3D printer. Although not with a "replicator" to scan the original item into the printer, I would need some sort of CAD drawing of the pocket ring itself to go from. It would certainly be possible to create a drawing, but I thought somebody might already have one floating around which would certainly save me some time. Do you happen to know of such a thing? If I can end up making these things cost effectively, I will gladly let you know.

Thanks for all the help!
-Andrew

[Chris_Sav]

Hi ,

There are a few variables at play here. There are two distinct types of traditional rings in use, the older Bakelite ones that are used in the Channel Isles and the more modern polypropylene (???) that have been used in most mainland tables. The two types of pockets have differing profiles (Bakelite have a wider throat) that affect playing styles.

Looking at yours I suspect they are Bakelite. All the polypropylene rings were made too big outside diameter and had to be ground down to fit the holes. The coarseness of the cloth also has an effect with finer cloths needing slightly tighter rings.

Could you please supply the exact width of the slate holes in mm, the outside and inside diameters of the old rings please.

Sav

[bjc]

Nov 13, 2014 23:01:18 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Hi ,

There are a few variables at play here. There are two distinct types of traditional rings in use, the older Bakelite ones that are used in the Channel Isles and the more modern polypropylene (???) that have been used in most mainland tables. The two types of pockets have differing profiles (Bakelite have a wider throat) that affect playing styles.

Looking at yours I suspect they are Bakelite. All the polypropylene rings were made too big outside diameter and had to be ground down to fit the holes. The coarseness of the cloth also has an effect with finer cloths needing slightly tighter rings.

Could you please supply the exact width of the slate holes in mm, the outside and inside diameters of the old rings please.

Sav

Sav,

I believe they are in fact the Bakelite version.  As you also mentioned - and as I included photos previously - the red PP rings which we got as replacements (from Master's) are in fact wider than the originals.  The unusable (red) Master's rings are 65mm and the top outer lip, and 55mm on the inside.

To answer your questions, the slate cutouts on my Sam's table are 63mm (the actual caliper measurement was 62.84mm).  The widest outside width (of the top "flared" end) of the original ring is 62mm (actual=61.95mm), while the inside measurement is 50.73mm.  Does this sound like a Channel-Isles-"standard"?

Cheers,
Andrew

[Chris_Sav]

Yes they are the Channel Islands type, the mainland rings are approx. 2mm narrower internally. The ball drops much quicker with these Bakelite type rings.

Dave Jones of Surrey made some high quality ones to the Channel Isles dimensions but I do not know if he is in the market for making more.

You can replace with either type if you can source them. The original Bakelite ones are very brittle. There is an attempt in Kent to make some mainland ones taking place at present.

Sav

[The Bridesmaid]

Hi guys ive just had 10 sets made up for the Guernsey tables and they are spot on from what we took out the tables.
I can get them made up no problem but need the pocket in my hand to take to the guy I deal with as it is a bang on replacement when he has the pocket. if you want to send pocket to me I can get it sorted and posted back but prices im not able to give until we see the pocket. call me on 07781111812 if you need to speak with me.
cheers champs

[bjc]

Ian,

I may take you up on this, as I really have almost no other option for finding replacements for these. I can certainly ship a pocket to you for reference. Let me know if you need a pocket in pristine condition, or if I can ship out one of my chipped pockets - which I would prefer if they just need to take dimensions from the original. If you can message me a shipping address (and a balkpark cost for the replacement set, if available), I would love to get moving on this.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Stuart Grennan]

Hi

Did anyone manage to 3D print any pocket rings? Or how is anyone getting hold of any rings?

Many thanks

Stuart

[Chris_Sav]

Jon Bamsey and I have been investigating 3D printing the rings with the object of producing a CAD file for general use.


Today, thanks to Jon, the mark III versions arrived, the first set produced. I asked for a different colour so that they will be obvious when they go in my pub table shortly.





(big attachment that I will trim down after people have had a chance to look.

I think these are pretty close, watch this space. They are the correct outside diameter (hopefully) so will not need rubbing down.

[alanturner]

Jul 1, 2019 15:20:38 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Jon Bamsey and I have been investigating 3D printing the rings with the object of producing a CAD file for general use.


Today, thanks to Jon, the mark III versions arrived, the first set produced. I asked for a different colour so that they will be obvious when they go in my pub table shortly.





(big attachment that I will trim down after people have had a chance to look.

I think these are pretty close, watch this space. They are the correct outside diameter (hopefully) so will not need rubbing down.

Brilliant , absolutely brilliant Sav and Jon , is there a costing or is it to early to say ??

Alan

[Chris_Sav]

Early days yet Alan, we have to see if they survive being tapped into the holes and how well they wear in use.


Profile can be adjusted based on how the balls drop, we could even keep Taff happy with easydrops if the idea works!

[petersoanes]

Hope the colour is approved for league play 😀

[Chris_Sav]

Jul 2, 2019 6:52:31 GMT petersoanes said:

Hope the colour is approved for league play 😀

Interesting point! We do have AEBBA rules for the position, shape, size and colour of the occasionally visited skittles, but nothing for the more frequently visited (hopefully) and critical rings in the holes.

[barbelman]

There is no reason they should not be any colour you want!  I still think you will need a higher resolution print to get rid of the ridges on the receiving surface....

Tony

[Chris_Sav]

Jul 2, 2019 8:49:21 GMT barbelman said:

There is no reason they should not be any colour you want!  I still think you will need a higher resolution print to get rid of the ridges on the receiving surface....

Tony

These are at the highest resolution capability of the 3D printer. We need to find out if a slightly rough surface makes any difference. Whether you can get a glossier finish with other materials I do not know.

[petersoanes]

Bletch sc don't mind being Guinea pigs 👍

[alanturner]

Jul 1, 2019 17:11:29 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Early days yet Alan, we have to see if they survive being tapped into the holes and how well they wear in use.


Profile can be adjusted based on how the balls drop, we could even keep Taff happy with easydrops if the idea works!

Keep Taffy Happy...................................ermmmmmmmmmmm ......would probably want them in a variety of colours and fully adjustable with little hydaulic arms to pull the balls down faster then hurls them back to the ball tray at lightening speed

What do think Taffy ?

[taffy]

just use a cannon Al!

But seriously, the really old pockets with the 4 cutaways stop all that rimming. i guess now folk will get a chance to find out.

well done chaps!

Taffy