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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 1, 2012 23:40:06 GMT
Haha, bet that scared ya all didn't it? I like the title because it makes me sound like the Steve Jobs of Bar Billiards...... Calm down, it’s not as drastic as you think. Some very interesting thoughts came into my brain about the future of our game (I’m ill, housebound and bored!), and I would like to share them and discuss if I may….. This article is about my thoughts and future ideas with regards to the long term survival of our game and the continued use of technology to benefit Bar Billiards as a whole. I also thought given some discussions I’ve browsed today, it might be nice to give you all an insight into my views and the way I think, given the fact that it was me that started this place. Some of you are scared I can tell….well rest assured, I’m not advocating anything and certainly not putting myself forward, but I would like the discussions, so I hope you enjoy. I was browsing the forum in depth for the first time since, well since I left it really. Brings it all back, all the hard work setting it up, running it etc. But I can’t help notice that’s it’s been song long now since I set it up, and it got me thinking about the next step. I’ll explain better what I mean. When I came up with the idea of a forum to chat and share information, Bar Billiards was very “behind the times” technologically. I knew that for the game to enhance and possibly grow, something “extra” had to be done on top of the much hard work that was already done by various people in various ways, and at the time the internet was transitioning into something that “some people used” into something “everyone must have”. That’s what spurred me on, the determination to take advantage of a new technology. The challenges ahead I knew would be tough, as the general player base of the game of Bar Billiards was not what I would have called “inherently technical”, and people are of course normally resistant to change, but the long term benefits, well you can all see the benefits this forum has brought. And before I continue writing, I would like to make it clear that I fully support the forum continuing in its present form way into the future. Don’t let anything I say here make you believe otherwise. But that said, that was then and this is now. If today had been the day 8 years or so ago when I sat down and decided to pro actively help the game in the best way I could, the question I can’t help but think to myself is would I do the same thing again? Would I specifically start an internet message forum as my preferred choice to do my bit for Bar Billiards? The answer, it’s interesting….. yes I think I would, but I don’t think I would have focused solely on just a message forum. You see, I remember when the question used to be asked “Do you have a mobile number?” Think about that, does anyone still ask that question? or do we just assume everyone has ownership of a mobile hence the question “I’ll take you’re mobile number”. In the future, what is good and useful today will naturally get replaced with something else somewhere down the line. Just look at Facebooks integration with the iphone. It can now sync facebook data with your contacts etc etc. Is it really so far fetched to believe that in a few years time you’ll just pick up the phone and say “Siri, look up Joe Bloggs on Facebook” and then you wait for friend approval and all the information you needs comes too you? That, or something like that will soon replace the old exchanging of numbers I assure you. Just as Facebook is replacing social emails between friend, and Twitter is replacing news feeds, and blogs are replacing editorials. It the way it’s always been, and it leads me to this article, what’s our next step in Bar Billiards? What would I do different today, because it’s a different world, with different ways of doing things. Lets break down the challenges as I see them into two categories, Information and Communication. For two way communication, yes, I think a message board would still be my preferred and primary choice. It still as far as I can see represents the best way to chat with people far and wide and discuss issues in details. That’s hard to do in a “Twitter” feed or something like that. Anything else I would come up with for helping communicate between people would be an extra to a message forum. For information consumption, well, now I’m not so sure. You see I thought of the posting of “necessary” information a bye product rather than the forums primary objective. Of course what happened was everyone realised that the forum was a great way to post information about tournaments, leagues results and all manner of stuff, but strangely my intention was to never “replace” existing information sources, I only wanted to add to them. In some ways this forum is the beneficiary of its own success, and that’s good don’t get me wrong. But I was sad when, for example, the BBQ stopped being published, or websites stopped getting updated as frequently as they used too. That was never my intention. I was a firm believer of adding too and enhancing what we already had, not replacing! But then of course this forum represents “convenience”, and in the case of printed material…. cost. I understand this, so I guess this is a debate with valid points on each side, to say nothing of having “one place” to see most things will of course make peoples lives easier. I’m glad I left this forum in very capable hands, and I can see more good things that have happened over the years, like Dave Alder giving Secretary updates and a closer link with AEBBA. So I guess you’re all now either wondering “Glenn, what are you on about?” or “Get to the point Chubbster, I’m falling asleep!”. Well I’ve had some ideas about the future, primarily with regards to ways to publish information rather than communication and I would like to share them with you and explain how I believe each could benefit our game in some way. They all have the present, but more importantly the future in mind. 1. Mobile Technology Integration and a Bar Billiards AppI have yet to download the Proboards app which is one thing I will look into, but mobile technology represents the future of all technology and tight integration with Bar Billiards would be a huge step. Right now I’m posting on a forum sitting at a computer, the easier it is to strip out the need to find a computer the better and more people will use whatever it is we are using. Now of course we could all just use the internet on our phones, but that’s just boring! (and can be expensive) something like a dedicated Bar Billiards application would really be something. Now how realistic is that? Well it’s not as far fetched as you think. Many small firms are now getting there own app as more and more people are learning to code in Objective-C (The computer language used to create iphone apps). Now for 2 ways communication this would offer little if nothing, but for access to Bar Billiards related matters it could be an extremely efficient tool. It of course comes with many problems and probably cost, but some kind Bar Billiard App is not as far fetched as it sounds. 2. Blogs and Wordpress.I mention Wordpress, I will now tell you about it. WordPress is a free and open source blogging tool and a dynamic content management system. Now what on earth does that mean? In a nutshell, It’s a tool for people with no skills to make fantastic looking websites in as little time as possible, and load them with information as easy as can be and make it look spectacular. If you don’t believe me, go check the New York Times Website, that’s a wordpress site, my personal favorate is www.cnet.com/ one of the most hit websites in the world. My ambition when creating this forum was to have an accompanying website, make it very, very easy for various people to update, and use the website as the primary information source for many things and leave the two way discussions to the forum. Problem is I didn’t have time, and more importantly I didn’t want to step on AEBBA or local leagues toes and duplicate anything they were doing. The massive advantage of Wordpress (and other blogging sites and tools in general) with regars to Bar Billiards specifically is it’s ease of use and the smaller amount of time to update. Where as in the past each website had a “webmaste” who was respnsible for bascially everything to do with the site, this is a very rare model to find these days, at least on a large scale. It’s just much more easy and more effecint to have multiple people who can fill in a simple page, press a button and get the info on the website straight away. The BBC website is the best example of this. There is no “Webmaster” as such, a reporter fills in a form on his laptop, and after vetting a button is pressed, and the story is dumped in the appropriate section. Just image a general all purpose Bar Billiards site, where for example I could be sitting on my ipad at an open, write a report of the tournmanet throughout the day, and within 10 minutes of the last game finishing, have an in-depth report on a website for the whole world to see, as opposed to just a message forum where you have to click through various links to see the information. I have 2 apps on my phone and ipad that can do that already. “Hmmm” I hear you all saying. “Well that’s nice Glenn, but err, we could just log into the forum to see that, is it really worth it?” Well that leads me to my next, and I believe very good idea…. 3. Twitter and RSS Feeds.Modern technology is all about convience. In todays world, why wait for someone to find something you want them to see when you can throw it upon them. A RSS feed (you may have seen them on various websites) is bascially a little button you press and when a story relivent to what you are looking at is posted, you can be alerted on whatever medium you are using (phone, computer) telling you it’ there, and giving you a link for easy access. Here is just one example of a benefit. Someone posts the start times for an open, the moment they post it somewhere, an automated alert is sent to each person telling them the start times for the competition. No need to look it up, it comes to you. You could also “Tweet” news items and things that various people need to see. It’s an area that I’m surprised nobody has set up already, as a Bar Billiards Twitter feed could be an interesting tool. Using that kind of model has as Im sure you will agree many benefits in the long term. Give people what they need autamatically, don’t rely on them finding out themselves. I have one more idea for the future, bear with me and try not to shun it straight off the bat. 4. The Bar Billiards TV Channel.Sounds rediulas doesn’t it. I mean come on!!!! Really? Well yes actually. Here is what you need, a Youtube Account, A Camera, basic editing software and an internet connection. I am a regular watcher of quite a few internet only TV shows. In the past, online video was a nightmare, a real nightmare, bandwidth costs were huge and editing was slow and painful, to say nothing of the internet speeds at the time, but these days it’s a piece of cake. Just as in the old days a musican had to sign a record deal to sell there material, these days all they need is a computer, some software and iTunes, as so that model works with TV. What’s better is, you can start getting advertising with your videos which scale with how many hits you can get. Would it really be so hard and so far fetched for some brave sole to go to an Open, record various clips of the day and a few interviews with players and some highlights of the final (I recommending using the iphone 4S Camera, it’s backside eluminated sensor outstanding), come home, mix it together with some video editing software (or do it on the phone with imovie if you like) and put it on youtube? Just imagine that! I can think of no better way to publise our great game than putting it out there for all to see, letting them subscribe and getting a following. And given the video would be there forever for all to see, just imagine how many people might take a look and enquire about a table local to them? And so we come to the end of my random thoughts. Now before anyone gets any ideas, no, I have no intention of doing any of these, nor am I critisizing anything that currently exsists. I’m also aware that I’ve made referrence to and spoken of these things being easy! They are of course not. I sometimes forget I’m a tech geek who’s been designing websites and editing videos since the days 14.4k modems and Intel 386’s (Probably only Sav will understand that!). But I thought it would be nice to post some thoughts on what I believe could one day be a possible next step. Some of my ideas sound far fetched, but they are all very doable for some brave souls who decide to take on the challenge and have the time, and for the continued benefit of the game I would love so see someone give one of these a try. And should anyone ever be inclined to discuss and move forward with things like these but lets anyone put them off an idea, I would like to say one important thing. I once started a project that although praised by some, was laughted at and riduculed by equaly as many (if not more). I was told it was pointless, not needed, and would never take off or be of much benefit to the cause I intended to support, everyone else just thought of it as some tech thing they would never have the facility to use or see. That project was this forum. So I’d love to know your thoughts, and being a tech geek myself, it would be great to hear other peoples ideas, specifclly around using newer technologies to enhance our game. Thanks for staying with me. Got to blow my nose now, take care…..
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Post by Sir Chancelot on Oct 2, 2012 8:32:36 GMT
Interesting thoughts and worth another read through when I have more time (not at home with a cold) Luke Oliver (Pacman) from Guernsey did record many clips the 2012 Guernsey Open and has put some matches held during Guernsey Finals night on YouTube.
I did mention in a post a few weeks ago that perhaps we should be considering a twitter feed on the website. However a concern is that any idiot could crash into it and post inappropriate material of flaming that would otherwise be moderated by the Modfathers, sorry Moderators ;D
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 2, 2012 9:19:24 GMT
I have just taken a look at the video's you mentioned, excellent. It would appear that The Guernsey Bar Billiards Association has it's own YouTube Channel.
I shall watch it's progress with interested, and needless to say think it's a great idea :)
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Post by BigPhilMac on Oct 2, 2012 9:53:02 GMT
What is it i look for specifically on youtube for the guernsey open?
Im rather interested :)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2012 10:35:12 GMT
Hi Glenn, I hope you will take at face value the frank and honest comments of a person who has used the British Bar Billiards Forum five times as much as anyone else (my credentials as someone who loves the game and is passionate about it).
Many Forum members have just about sufficient knowledge to enable them to get by and are learning as they go along how to do attachments, provide links, put up pictures etc.
Not all of us have embraced technologies such as Facebook and Twitter. Although some of Staff had to join when they were tipped off about derogatory comments being said about them behind their back on Facebook. I won't touch it with a bargepole, I already spend too much of my time "on-line" and I refuse to join all the other people on the bus into town tapping away at their i phones - it's killing the art of conversation.
Back in 2004 you had a "land a man on the moon in 1969 moment" for our game when you created the Forum. This is fully appreciated by all users and the next quantum leap is not visible on the horizon.
Now, I am impressed by this comment that you made:
This has almost been achieved, with the AEBBA website now having much more credibility than in the days when you started off the Forum. We now have a full set of records on EVERYTHING at National level dating back to 2006. But I would like to see this updated on a more regular basis and be more pro-active on what is coming up, as updates only seem to happen in huge lumps about two or three times a year.
This would admittedly remove part of the brunt that is currently being borne by the Forum as the first point of contact as a source for information. I don't know when - or if - this is ever going to happen, as it is the same parties (Sav, Nige, Dave A etc) responsible for both.
Which leads me on to the question of members and viewers.......whilst I was still on Staff I made the statement that 'we seem to exist more for non-members than members.' Much effort was being put in by the team in vetting and approving new membership applications which then seemed an absolute waste of time as very few of them bothered to use their accounts, preferring to continue viewing in as guests. Last night for instance when I logged on there was just myself and 24 guests ! A Staff discussion then ensued about how we could encourage more members and it was agreed to trial 'members only'.
You recently spoke out against this, but the whole point is that a Forum is not intended to be merely a 'look up' source for information - we have Individual leagues' websites and the AEBBA website for that - it should be somewhere where you can join in and share views and comments. At the moment there are about between 30 and 40 active members joining in on a regular basis, which to you can't seem to be much of a progression from eight years ago. So what's the answer ?
tommo
PS Hope you're feeling better soon
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Post by Sir Chancelot on Oct 2, 2012 12:41:12 GMT
What is it i look for specifically on youtube for the guernsey open? Im rather interested :) I do not think Luke (pacman) had loaded the filming of the Guernsey Open onto Youtube yet as I said. He has however loaded on some matches from our Finals night
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Post by BigPhilMac on Oct 2, 2012 16:45:43 GMT
What is it i look for specifically on youtube for the guernsey open? Im rather interested :) I do not think Luke (pacman) had loaded the filming of the Guernsey Open onto Youtube yet as I said. He has however loaded on some matches from our Finals night i do beg your pardon i probably didnt read it properly ;D i watched the 2012 pairs final recently that involved trevor gallienne, paul dyer and matt ogier along with another gentleman whose name escapes me ;) what was the outcome of that match? Just wondering
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Post by Sir Chancelot on Oct 2, 2012 19:00:19 GMT
Ogier and Dyer beat Gallienne and his teammate Barry Osbourne over 4 legs
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Post by Carls421 on Oct 3, 2012 17:42:01 GMT
Hi,
Personally, moving forward I think is a great idea! I'm a 4-Pin player in Norwich, when I first started playing (bearing in mind this was only a few years ago) The first thing I did was to search for an app on my phone to try and find out more about the game. But alas, nothing. I came to a computer then found these forums, which have been incredible for us in little ole Norfolk.
We now have 4 venues and 7 teams in our league, which doesn't sound a lot, but going from just 2 teams to what we have now in such a short amount of time, and still growing I might add. People are wanting to know more and more about the game, the problem we now have is trying to convince some more pubs to take the plunge to buy or rent a table! Its harder than I first thought! But that's another story.
I believe you're absolutely right, technology has dramatically been made easier to use, I am involved in (in somewhat a small scale) the film industry. Feature films have and are being made with the iPhone now, and not a great deal different to the picture quality of the million pound cameras which are being used. So if someone wants to put a camera in the corner for a few important games and upload them to YouTube for all to see, cant hurt anyone... Can it?
So, for me, yes, why not move forward? If it promotes the game of Bar Billiards, what harm could it do?
It would be interesting to see what everyone else thinks...
Kind Regards
Carl
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 3, 2012 22:36:00 GMT
Hello me old Tommo, good to speak with you in this "medium" again :)
Firstly, I'm sorry to hear that, but alas it doesn't suprise me. I'll let you and everyone in on a little scret right now given that time has passed. I used to get abuse with regards to the forum on a regular basis. But despite all that and all the other reasons I left, the tipping point was being insulted, to my face, during a league match. So I know how it feels. Don't let them get to you....
Anyway, regarding Facebook and phones killing the art of conversation, I’m with you there. I hate texting, and although I have a Facebook account, I’m not a fan and use it very rarely. But my point is that the world moves, and for anything to survive it has to move with the times. We can fight against it all we want, but that’s the way it is.
I’m flattered by your “Land on the Moon Comment” but trust me it wasn’t like that. All I did was something to bring the game in line with the world, aka the Internet. That was the emerging new technology at the time, yet little attempt was being made to truly, properly take advantage of it.
And this is the very point I’m making now. Believe it or not “surfing the web” and “Checking websites” is fast, and I mean really fast becoming a thing of the past. Company’s and organisations around the world know this. Apps are being programmed at a frantic pace as everyone prefers using a rich client based application on a mobile device rather than going into a browser. News is no longer there to see if you wish, it’s being delivered to users who want it via “streams”. These are the new nd emerging technologies, and these are what we could be taking advantage of… hence this discussion. How best could we do that?
Well, I don’t really want to get into a members vs non members debate. But consider this, I’ve seen on this forum that there are approximately 1,500 players in the UK. Well if we have 400 or so of them on this forum, that’s a massive percentage of a player base, truly massive. Some people don’t use or don’t want to use this forum or the internet, there are a great many people who will still not know about this. The fact that 400 members are have signed up is a tribute to the work you and the other staff have done down the years. The fact that only 30 or 40 are active, well that’s a slightly different matter.
To answer that, I would have to ask you to reframe the question. What is it you want them to do? Only then would I know how to respond. I guessing that is to get more people to chat and post. If that’s the case then all you can really do is open the door, it’s they who have to walk through it. Personally, I would hope more debates and discussions like this would encourage more people to post and play a part in moving the game forward.
But, if it’s a case of the staff being overloaded running this forum which has become primarily a “looking” source, then this only adds power to my point. Is there not a better way to achieve this via other means?
On a side note but an important one (one of which if I’m wrong do correct me if someone knows some facts pointing otherwise), I don’t believe for a second that the “guests” represent “people” who are activly viewing this forum. I know this because when I posted this message at silly a clock in the morning, I counted the “views” of the thread and watched them go up 1 by 1 each time I myself clicked on it, and I was the only members online. So you can safely assume for starters that Proboards does not log an ip address and count it as 1 “view”, hence I’m doubtful that for example 24 guests viewing the forum in the last hour represent 24 people viewing the main page. I visit the main page before logging in, I bet I show up as one of the guests each time before I log in. Also bear in mind that this forum is very old, very spidered, and will naturally attract a great deal of misdirected web traffic just by people “browsing and searching” the net for various cue sport related matters.
But if someone knows different, I’ll put my hand up to being wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time, and it certainly won’t be the last lol
You have hit the nail on the head my friend. Technology is indeed far easier to use these days. This is a good thing as it allows us to target those who in the past, would not even know or be inclined to visit this forum (my mother is a great example, she uses apps on the ipad, the internet quite frankly scares her and with her technology skills, I’m sure she scares the internet in equal amounts).
And this also worries me. What happens when, for example, people don’t use or need a web browsers any more to find what they want (apart from very rarely). Are we prepared for that? Because trust me, it might be 2 years or 10, but that day will happen. Steve Jobs was so correct in something he said a year or so before he died. When looking at the tablet and app revolution which he helped create, he said that “Computers will be like trucks. Still going to be around, still going to be needed by some people, but a tablet and your apps will be the cars. You just won’t need a truck to drive from A to B”.
And he’s right, and it’s happening fast. Just go look at Windows 8 for anyone that doesn’t believe me, it’s designed purely with a touch screen tablet in mind, the “desktop” and “browser” are a mere after thought. I fear (personally, because I will always need a "truck")) that Microsoft will do away with the desktop altogether a couple of versions down the line (they have said just as much). How do we as a community based forum using approach that day? What the strategy does the game have for publicity and expansion moving forward?
Thank you all for your comments so far, I’ve enjoyed reading them and look forward to much more feedback :)
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 3, 2012 22:57:03 GMT
I have to add a supplemental, as I’ve just read Carls excellent comments again.
This more than anything gives me a great deal of hope. In the past when I was doing my bit for the game, I never once met anyone (apart from Gina god bless her) who truly believed that the game would ever expand! Everyone was all doom and gloom about how the game was getting smaller, but all the efforts we based at trying to “hold on” to what we have. Expansion was always an after thought.
I see no reason, none at all, why every single county in this country can’t have a league with a few teams in it. Carl here is an excellent example of that, even in these trying and difficult times for the pub trade, it is possible. People just need to know about the game, be given that information freely….
I think this leads to my over-arching point. Everything I ever did for the game was based around “expanding” and not “holding onto” which seems to unfortunately be the accepted medium of running various aspects of the game. It just feels sometimes like we as a community only encourage the expansion of the game when people (normally accidentally) find us, I always wanted to “go and get them”. I’m living proof of that, Gina found me…..
That was my main reason for wishing to see the forum remaining open, because although it’s not perfect, how else will anyone every find out about the game at the moment?
This forum is great a great and wonderful resource for players who currently exist, and it of course helps expand the game through discussion and easy access to information. But what of course it doesn’t do is “throw” it upon random people who actually are Bar Billiards players…. They just don’t know it yet because nobody’s told them about the game!
With that in mind, I love the Youtube idea, I really do. I’m inclined to give it at try, but I know where these things lead lol
Anyway, thank you again for those thoughts Carl, and keep going with your expansion in the area, as someone who has done so much to hear stories like that, it was truly wonderful to read….
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 23:57:14 GMT
Hi Glenn,
Thanks for your response, and good to exchange philosophical views on this. In me you have a captive audience, I have used computers since 1983 when the first PC (with twin floppy disk drives) was wheeled into our office....everyone else was too scared or disinclined to have anything to do with it, but I was prepared to give it a go, and did the self-tutorial during my lunch breaks.
Come to think of it, it was a decade before that, when I worked for Malaya Garage (supplier of luxury cars - Porsches, Mercedes and Audis) in a room out the back which housed a giant Logabax 180 computer installation. I looked after Spare Parts, Payroll and standard letters to customers advising either their service was due or their warranties had almost expired and did they have any problems that needed addressing.
The installation consisted of an enormous console, a high-speed printer which churned out page after page of that green-lined computer paper, plus three hard disks housed in a unit about five feet tall, of which we had to produce a daily copy a weekly copy and a monthly disk copy to be sent away to another site for perpetual backup.
The point that I am leading up to is that I agree with your point that time moves forward, and the technology shrinks in direct proportion. The work which in 1971 required a whole roomful of equipment is now managed more efficiently by a small laptop.
But eventually there is a quantum leap, and in the case of computers it was the Intel Pentium Processor, which brought graphics to life.
I can draw reference to a further example of shrinking technology in my experience in the manufacturing industry: in 1991 I landed a plum but demanding job as a resource planning engineer, a large part of which consisted of loading work to the shop floor for manufacture of cableforms and printed circuit boards (having sourced and procured the requisite components). Over the next ten years I witnessed first-hand the decline of the manufacturing industry, again the technology shrunk with the development of the silicon chip, a microprocessor which did the job of - and therefore replaced - whole banks of printed circuit boards. Even after that, the chip with the metal legs on either side was superceded by much smaller surface mount technology and eventually all our work became outsourced as it was no longer economical to have our own shop floor - apart from for developing prototypes or repairing old equipment.
So I concede you those points.
I will however say that not all change going headlong down that path is for the good. Yes, flat screen digital TVs are great, digital cameras are great and you can get ipods which combine a phone, a camera and an entertainment medium.
But some of us would rather have an actual book in our hand to read than use a kindle. And as a collector of music, I constantly bemoan the day that vinyl was first replaced by cassettes and then by the CD.
I eventually embraced the CD and bought my collection all over again, but this isn't to say that I have got rid of a single one of my thousand vinyl albums or several thousand singles !
What do I find now ? I hear a track I like and want to buy it as a CD single and it is listed as being in the charts, but I am told in HMV that they don't do singles any more. I am a dinosaur and should be buying my music as 'downloads'. Yet just before they phased them out you could sometimes buy a CD with a video track which was brilliant.
You are a DJ yourself and I wonder if you can identify with this point ?
The whole gist of my argument really is that there has been so much water under the bridge - heck, I remember the Beatles bursting on to the scene in 1962 - 50 years ago, you weren't born then - as if it was yesterday ! Things used to be exciting then, people would whistle the latest pop tunes in the street. Then following the Mersey beat we had the Mod era, the hippie era, and then the underground scene when the music went bland and commercial in the 1970s and 80s. The best bands like Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac endure and stand the test of time, whereas now we have (c)rap music and Simon Cowell forcing X Factor and Pop Idol on the nation in a desperate attempt to find the latest big moneyspinner. Not all of the new technology has been for the best, to my way of thinking........
Apologies if this has turned into a sort of rant. (Fuelled by Fosters if it has !)
Regards,
tommo
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enzo
Distinguished Member
Posts: 637
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Post by enzo on Oct 4, 2012 12:10:35 GMT
In the IT industry there are the many ways to 'keep up' with later forms of technology and mediums without a full migration, especially in instances like the target end user on these forums taking age and level of computer literacy into account. Even in the world of today's continuous blogging and interaction, forum's still have the upper hand as they are generally used for different things, on this forum for instance organized archiving becomes easy to both store and find later.
Gradual or partial migration is smoother. We can develop Apps across different platforms including social & video networking integration to both website and app whilst still having the forum as a main hub. This has its advantages and disadvantages of course.
Newer technology should be available to those who wish to use it but without hindering those who are not willing or are basic end users. This causes the problem of having too many access points into the same information, and too many forms of online media leads to confusion unless strict protocols are followed to ensure both sides share this same information.
The advantages of the above are self-evident to those who are familiar with the latest technology and are easily overlooked by those not willing to change. Convenience for the user is probably the main aspect, but in terms of inbound traffic it makes Bar Billiards as a whole more visible and indirectly boost links to other Bar Billiards related websites & info hubs.
Generic apps from a host are semi-open source meaning you can change certain variables in line with what the end user's needs without altering 'sensitive' code that could effect the host/server. However This does not come without limitations, least of all a more professional or friendly look but the plus side to this is the resources of the hosting company in correlation to the reliability of service and ease of administration which is incredibly high in comparison to a small business or home-start techie. One may have the ability to code and create such software and apps but it is the maintenance that is the killer, and then you have the troubleshooting of your user's inevitable problems and without man-power it becomes a chore for one or two unlucky individuals.
Professionally speaking I would say it could be a good idea so long as it was planned and implemented correctly. Even on Proboards this forum could be streamlined a little and also implementing minimal level of social networking - Like, Follow, Subscribe, +1 etc and of course logging in with Facebook. But you run the risk of 'site cycling' where you post something on a Facebook page or on a comment on a Like and then have a discussion on the forum and post your comments there AND still get comments on that particular subject on Facebook with 2 sets of people.
An app however can be made basic or complex, and an idea of an info app rather than a social/discussion app would be very beneficial. Think competition and tournament dates & times, league fixtures, current tables & stats, a timer with memory for different tables, a touch scoring system (aimed at beginners), and probably plenty more if you really thought about it. All of this with the option to add more interactive options should there be a call for it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 15:40:36 GMT
I see no reason, none at all, why every single county in this country can’t have a league with a few teams in it. Carl here is an excellent example of that, even in these trying and difficult times for the pub trade, it is possible. People just need to know about the game, be given that information freely…. Sorry to dampen your fireworks, Glenn, but all evidence that exists points to the contrary, Carl's Norwich 4-pin league being the exception to the declining trend in bar billiards activity rather definitive proof of a general uplift. Sad to say this, coming from an eternal optimist such as myself, but the game is gradually dying. Before you accuse me of apathy, have a look at our marvellous map on the AEBBA website, which pinpoints all known venues (over 600 of them) for bar billiards in the British Isles: maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=104694377102614712000.000485981969d13618db1&ll=51.44716,-1.192017&spn=1.900042,6.696167&z=8 A first glance at the map in its entirety shows more 'black' markers than 'white' - white denoting league venues and black non-league. The competitive bar billiards world, apart from our C.I. friends, is roughly circular in shape, with Oxfordshire and Northants on the northern perimeter, and there's a 'black hole' in Bedfordshire, Herts and London, where we kinda think it ought to be played. So how on earth would anyone set about starting leagues in these areas ? There are loads of tables in London, many of which we are aware get played regularly (the Pembury Arms, Glasshouse Stores and Mark's Hix Bar in Soho to name a few), but getting from venue to venue would mean using the tube, not always reliable in itself, and not having the luxury of leaping in a car and getting to the away venue within about 30 mins like we have down in Sussex. Hertfordshire still has some venues left, but whereas it was once one of the counties competing at national level, there does not seem to be any inclination there to regain its status. Other former competing counties are Avon, Somerset, Wiltshire, Leicestershire, Lincolnshire, and South Yorkshire. All gone, never to return. Why ? Simply because they've lost their constituent leagues. Worse still, some of the remaining counties have lost large leagues. Andover, Winchester, Southampton have gone from Hampshire which is now funnelled down into Portsmouth, Kent has had the heart ripped out of it with the loss of the Canterbury League which once had six divisions, the Newbury and Wokingham leagues have gone from Berkshire which is now simply Reading, and Bucks is now concentrated into the southern tip of the county at High Wycombe. In recent years Cambridgeshire has gone into decline, it's touch and go whether they are able to send representatives to county events any more. Their very existence is under threat. Look at that map and you'll see a white marker up in Kingston-upon-Hull, there's a pub there called the Minerva where the landlord has installed three tables and holds competitions - the only chink of light in a dark tunnel. So why, with 600 tables left around to for people to play on, is the game unlikely to ever catch on in the rest of the country in a big way ? I reckon the reasons are these: 1) The game is very difficult to learn to play to an appreciable standard. 2) No-one around to teach or learn from. 3) The game has too many variants - to the UK mainland, off-the spot seems difficult, to 4-Pin league our 3-Pin looks too easy and boring. Carl did a survey amongst his Norwich compatriots and they would not consider changing to 3-Pin because they didn't like the way a game could be won by one player on a simple break. 4) The non-league tables are in general not maintained satisfactorily - I've encountered ones vastly out of level, with craters where a D should be, etc. 5) Tables can be installed, then got rid of soon after when the landlord discovers it's not paying its way. 6) The modern-day trend towards pub closures - you've lost some really good ones in the last 12 months in Brighton, for instance. 7) No backup in the form of replacement tables. The modern ones (Supreme) are of inferior quality and depreciate rapidly like an eastern european car. Bar-Billiards Ltd of Ascot are no longer in business, so no opportunities to hire a table except in Sussex where we are lucky in having the last table operator in business - Tarratts - but for how much longer ? ...and finally... 8) The average age of a league player must by now be over 50. None of us are getting any younger ! Unless something drastic is injected into the game - and quickly - in the form of publicity, I don't know what, TV exposure maybe, or a National Lottery grant - money talks ! - then I predict that there won't be any bar billiards in 20 years' time. Sorry to paint such a gloomy picture. tommo
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 4, 2012 17:51:03 GMT
Some excellent points Tommo, ones that sadden me. I hope in the same spirit as your first post you will now take my words on face value coming from someone who simply refuses to give in to what might be, and rather focuses all his energy on what "can" be.....
You are 100% correct Tommo me old mucker. But I think you may have missed the entire point that I wanted to discuss. The past is not changeable, the future is. What “can” we do to change this? How “might” this not be the case? Lets focus on that….
With regards to your entire table and map argument, I’m afraid I fail to see the point. Your argument is based on location problems and the lack of tables in a certain area, but we can’t let what currently does not exsist stop us from expanding into what might one day be. The answer is simple, get tables into the effected areas, and make people want to play the game.
Now I know that sounds silly, and people will probably scoff at me, but it’s a real simple solution. How we are going to achieve that beats me! But that’s the answer.
On that topic, the reason why various companies won’t make tables is simply a supply and demand issues. If there is no demand, then there is going to be no supply. So once again, what “can” we do to create the demand? How do we raise the profile and find a new audience? The point of this thread was in huge part how we can use new technologies to reach new people? Don’t think anyone would disagree that it it’s a great idea, but nobody as yet is offering ideas of how that might be done?
And on the table issue, I know of one person who worked out how many tables there would have to be in the country for him to make a living “owning and maintaining” them. If the demand was there, then either he or someone would feasibly be able to take that on and make quite a good living out of it. I’m sure in times like this someone in the game would relish that opportunity. Of course right now it can’t be done, so why aren’t we trying to find ways to try and make that happen? It will also solve the issue, at least in part of the bad table problem of which you touched upon.
Ok, I’ll go through these 1 by 1.
1. So is Chess, and Snooker, and learning to play a musical instrument. I would hate to think we’re not going to try because the game is “too hard”. Plus young people like me play mainly for the challenge, I would list this fact as a huge positive and an absolute necessity to the survival of our game. Who’s going to play a game that’s easy? 2. That can be fixed. How about a 30 minute instructional video on our new Bar Billiards TV channel explaining the game, it’s rules, it’s tactics and even it’s history? Our new table supply guy could put a sticker on each table giving them the website. 3. Cricket has 3 current variations, all of them exist and compliment each other (well, apart from our test players trying to sling the bat and win a test match in half a session, but getting themselves out in the process). Many years ago a test matches used to last weeks. Tewnety20 is fairly new. In a nutshell the game involved naturally. As would the game of Bar Billiards in time. 4. Again, supply, demand and knowledge will fix this. That’s simply down to the players themselves. 5. Supply and demand once again. Get people playing the game and forming teams and asking for there local landlord for a table and your problem remedies itself (at least in part, some landlords just don’t want that kind of thing, but darts and pool suffer the same problem, they both seem to be doing just fine) 6. Yeah it’s a big problem, but I would hate to think a pastime is going to resign itself to doom because of an external factor we can’ really control. Why are pubs closing? Because they are not taking enough money. Would a active, enthusiastic Bar Billiards team not increase the pubs profits? 7. Once again, supply and demand. Create the need and the company will exist. Without it then the company folds. 8. Again very true. So how do we attract a younger audience? I would imagine that young people today are not really inclined to browse the internet or go into a local pub with an average age much older than themselves. They are too busy on there mobile phones….
Wait, hold on a second :)
Which brings me back to my point once again. How can we use new technology to attract a new (and if you like younger) audience? How can we captivate a new generation of player, where do we find them?
I am aware that many people reading this will naturally think that it’s not possible to implement any of these things and be resigned completely to the fact our game is dying out. I’m afraid I have to argue against it which is what I’ve done here. It was the same when I first joined a league, it was the same when I became Brighton Chairman, it was the same when I started this forum. Everyone was in my opinion trapped in a thought process that did not contemplate what could be done different. I now refer to you an old ancient Chinese proverb which is so ridiculously stupid and simple that people fail to take time to think about it and gain from it’s wisdom. It goes as follows….
“If things don’t change, they’ll stay as they are”
Which leads onto a great point Tommo made….
And you’re right my friend, I 100% agree.
So I now ask you all……. What should/can/might we change to help prosper the game of Bar Billiards?
My name is Glenn Chubb, and I herby announce my candidacy for President of the Foolishly Overly Optimistic League Society (FOOLS)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 19:42:36 GMT
Hi Glenn, Your Ying to my Yang, opposite outlooks, but together we sharing the same purpose - to save the game if at all possible as the way things are going it's all going downhill.
I drew your attention to the map not to try and prove a point, but to demonstrate that we have been proactive while you've been away and have a handle on exactly where our beloved game has the potential to be played.
If a person existed with such inclination, they would make it their business to either visit or phone up each venue named, to gauge what interest existed at their venue and what the likelihood was of them joining a national league if one was started.
Nobody has the time to do that, of course, but we have the next best thing, which is people like myself going out of our way to visit one or two when we're on holiday, and reporting back our findings (check out the bar billiards in London, the Rest of the UK etc threads). We also seem to have developed a team of forum members who act as 'roving reporters' and we get useful intelligence from our 'agents' in London Suburbs (OldBlue) Hertfordshire (SquireRichard), the North of England (BrianGardner) as well as 'ex-pats' in Yorkshire and Cornwall. There are about 20 hot spots that I intend to look in on over the course of the next 6 or 7 years.
What other efforts could we make that might bear fruit ? Well events seem to conspire against us: They were going to send TV cameras along to Reading to film a special challenge for either Rory McGrath or Will Mellor to take on K.T. for the programme Great Pub Challenge (which features minor sports) but they withdrew at the last moment. Whether or not it will now go ahead I know not. But the game needs it to.
Tables supply and the variants of the game I would insist are valid points which stand in our way. The four-pin game is an ethnic minority and more at risk than we are of complete eradication. Yes, Norwich is expanding, but Suffolk (Sudbury League) is treading water and Wellingborough has reduced to nearly nothing. We should be doing something to embrace Sudbury, a long-standing league, by offering them a crack at the AEBBA Alternative Rules, and play the game on their terms and offer some attractive prize money as a lure. I have yet to find anyone to support that view.
Tables - of course you are right about supply and demand, but so many tables of the 'wrong type' have been made. The first load of Supreme tables (with pool table attributes such as the ugly big legs and the slot mechanism that catches your hand as you pick a ball out of the tray) we made with an MDF base rather than a proper slate and are terrible. There was one for a while in the Windmill Southwick which we had to endure an Interleague match on. Then hundreds of 'narrow' tables were made and we see these coming up on eBay quite often and people buy these unwittingly to then find you can't get more than a thousand on them playing the 3-pin way. Unfortunately both types have been bought wholesale by brewery operators such as Punch Taverns and Leisure UK and it is this type that is often supplied to a new venue - and surprise, surprise, the game never takes off. So (hypothetically) just suppose that I am a brewery-tied non-Sussex landlord and want to buy or rent a table for my pub, and want a nice standard SAMS, Riley or Jelkes......No-one wants to play on the one the Brewery installed, and they won't let me buy my own on eBay as it would be against Brewery policy to do so. Assuming in the first place I could find one for less than a grand (manufactured 70 years ago and in perfect condition). Even then it would be a gamble that I could get the interest going to make it earn its keep.
I've strayed into the negative again - for which my apologies ! Okay, what else ?
1) We could do with a Patron to raise the profile of the game. There are plenty of celebrities who we know have been associated with the game in the past: Steve Davis, Mike Gatting, Ray Davies, Sean Connery, Kate Humble, Bill Maynard.
2) Check out the section on Japan - there is a guy out there called Bob Mobsby who wants to stage a Japanese Open in a couple of years' time and provide sponsorship for those willing to go out there. Response so far has been shamefully lukewarm.
3) The Glenn Chubb original idea of a National Off-the-Spot Open. The first one is due to take place in 2013 !!!! Okay it's going to be on a smaller scale than you intended, with minimal publicity except on here and for the usual suspects who take part in Opens, but at least Kent have rolled their sleeves back and are making the first one happen. Up for discussion at the AEBBA AGM in December will be whether or not it will be offered to a different county in turn - a sort of "Bar Billiards Tours the Country" and if so counties will be invited to submit the tender for a particular year in the future. I personally think this is great, especially if it gives the likes of Northants or Cambridge - or even East Anglia - the chance to stage a national tournament and thus raise their profile.
There you go, Glenn, some positives along with the negatives this time !
Regards,
tommo
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Oct 4, 2012 22:09:16 GMT
We could go into business tommy, a sort of a bad cop, worse cop type of thing :) you could be mel Gibson, and I'll be... Er, you know that other one!
I had no idea you visited the tables on your travels, for that you must be applauded. That's the exact kind of thing we need, even if it just raises awareness sometimes and let's people know we're are out there. Also I've not yet said how much I like the map :)
With regards to tables and Brewery's, yes this is a big problem. I am very family (unfortunately) with the supreme tables, having played on the one in the windmill many times, but I will admit that is a big problem I have not taken into account. How that would be worked around is a tough one. I guess someone, at some point who actually knows about the game is going to have to make them. It's a shame that supreme, who put in the effort to make the tables, made such bad ones. I'd be interested to know how that came about. Maybe if this forum had arrived a bit sooner we could have helped them out.
Also I saw the off the spot competition, and I will indeed support that myself. I love me idea about it changing venues. Taking a tournament "on the road" so to speak can only do the game good in the long run.
Anyway thank you for your continued feedback. We could have had this discussion in private really, but I'm sure everyone will be posting soon. I shall sit here on my ipad watching the matrix and await everyone's input :)
I do have one far fetched idea that I know for certain would be a great thing for the game, and that everyone would universally love (and may well be a big plus for me personally). But it would be a lot of work for a few months, so I'm going to leave it under my hat for now and await more feedback around this discussion. Plus..... You know, I don't have time and all that!
Until then, stay positive all :)
(Oh, and nobody else has announced there intentions to run for president of FOOLS, so I guess that makes me the only fool!)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 23:03:37 GMT
We could go into business tommy, a sort of a bad cop, worse cop type of thing :) you could be mel Gibson, and I'll be... Er, you know that other one! I think I'd have to be the Danny Glover (catchphrase: I'm too old for this sh!t) LOL. Yes there are ways in which we will undoubtedly move forward, people already use the Forum 'on the hoof' with their Blackberries etc and we are continually trying to get the message out there. And there is a good selection of YouTube clips which we can ensure are constantly added to. It may be up to your goodself to initiate the next quantum leap though and I shall be interested to see what you have in mind. If we were in business together we would no doubt now be launching a working party for brainstorming sessions on the way forward, and at present I seem to be the other member of a constituent of just two. So let's have some other input, peoples, please ! ;D What I would stress, though, is that our beloved sport is under threat from several fronts, and the most momentous one looming on the horizon is if Tarratts decided to retire and close their bar billiards operation and liquidise assets... Surrey, Oxon, Kent and the AEBBA have shown the way forward by forming consortia to purchase Bar Billiards Ltd's tables, and Sussex would no doubt follow their lead, I know of at least half a dozen persons who would be willing to invest in a big way. So really you could say that we have our work cut out just trying to keep things the way they are for as long a period as possible. :-/ Yours, tommo
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