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Post by Carls421 on Nov 1, 2012 16:08:33 GMT
Ok, I have been inquiring and getting info via the boards and the AEBBA regarding a 4-Pin Bar Billiards competition for all of us 4-Pinners to get up and running so we can all get together and start a big competition.
So I have made this board so it can be the central one anyone can leave their feedback or interest on.
Initially my idea was to try and get an official 4-Pin competition on the go in Reading either in conjunction or to run alongside the alternative rules competition. But after looking at the locations of most of the 4-Pin League and non-league tables, also with good advice from the AEBBA secretary, I now think it would probably be a better idea to start off by holding a 4-Pin OPEN in East Anglia.
At the moment I have gone no further in arranging anything for one reason and one reason only. What interest is there? Are there any 4-Pinners or non 4-Pinners for that matter on the forums that would be interested in coming along or helping out with any arrangements, I am thinking of organising it so we can play at around mid 2013.
Everything hinges on the numbers, I have scoped our Norwich players, the feedback is very good, we have 45(ish) players, Im not saying everyone will want to play but they are our numbers. Ive no idea about how many players Sudbury or Wellingbrough have, or what the interest of this would be from them, so as I say, this is very much in its infancy at the moment. But it is looking very promising!!!
As I have said above, everything depends on numbers, ie hire of a venue, how many tables would be needed to be obtained/hired, etc etc. Or even if it meant, a few days of coming to one place ie Norwich and playing the competition between out 4 venues (soon to be 5) All this would need to be considered.
I am now in touch with the Sudbury league, they have a solid league there so we would be following their table rules.
So, there you have it, like I say, I will be speaking to the Sudbury League too, but any comments or anything anyone wants to add, then please feel free to comment! Anyone would be welcome, I will be updating this thread of any new developments.
Many Thanks
Carl (Norwich Bar Billiards League)
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Post by Chris_Sav on Nov 1, 2012 16:21:42 GMT
Sounds an excellent idea, busy schedules allowing,
Would it be played on the AEBBA tables please? (need a few more pegs). If not would it be played on 'Narrow' tables.
I'm sure you would find help on here for budgets and scheduling.
Highlighting any major rules differences to the three pin game would help us lot.
Sav.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 16:56:51 GMT
Interest too from this quarter. Deciding a convenient date is paramount, and an ideal venue (i.e. a big enough pub or hotel to accommodate the extra tables required). Have a look at this thread where we started off the Surrey Open from the germ of an idea: barbilliards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=opens&action=display&thread=9665Keep this thread for suggestions, and start a separate one asking for names of people interested. My suggestions: 1) Start the competition at 12noon to give people plenty of time to arrive; 2) Limit entry to the first year to a maximum of 64 players. 3) No plate competition for the first year.
That way, assuming you were able to marshall in 8 tables, you could have double-leg games throughout and be looking at starting the semi-finals at 6pm.
If it turns out that you only have 48 entrants you might be able to get away with using 6 tables.
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Post by milhouse on Nov 1, 2012 17:37:37 GMT
Good comments as always from Tommo, except... The mention of not having a plate competition. I would be interested in giving this a try, but having not played this variety before, i would not be willing to travel all that way just for one game (if i lose of course!). I would guess other people would be in the same boat?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 18:44:29 GMT
Interesting comment Mark but my suggestion is a measured one. Remember that us 3-Pinners will be lambs to the slaughter at the 4-Pin version, (like mainlanders were in the first year of Jersey as it was off-the-spot).
One two-leg game will probably be quite enough for most of us: I've tried to have a go just now at 4-pin, and the best break I could get was 480 970 1140. ::)
It will however be a great opportunity to acquaint ourselves with the remainder of the bar billiards world. Hopefully Cambridge in particular will show an interest as the nearest 3-pin playing county.
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Post by NigelS on Nov 1, 2012 18:59:06 GMT
I would play, got to be open to other forms of the great game, date is important so it does not clash with any other tournament s
Sent from my GT-S5830 using ProBoards
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 2, 2012 15:01:39 GMT
Sav, The games would be ideally played on 4-Pin (Narrow) tables, i will be getting info and advice from the AEBBA if they have any available, although there is a company around here with table we can hire from. Otherwise, we can probably use the tables from our venues here which are a mixture of 3 and 4-Pin tables. This would obviously need to be clarified to whether we can use mixed tables for fairness. The dates for this proposed Open will be carefully picked as not to clash with any other competition or holidays etc. I do think we should have a plate for the Open because of the reasons given above, i agree, for people to come all this way to potentially play one game could and would be a real shame. I shall be calling the Sudbury Bar Billiards within the next few days to chat to them for any input or ideas they have. Im really pleased there is interest from everywhere! This could be a great event! Getting excited already! :-)
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 2, 2012 15:06:17 GMT
Oh and as for the rules we would be using, have a look on the Sudbury BB website, they have the 4-Pin Rules that we will be using, they have been very carefully planned and annually checked, so we use them as our standard ones too.
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Post by Colemanator on Nov 2, 2012 15:10:03 GMT
have you been in touch with the Wellingborough league?
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 2, 2012 15:12:15 GMT
I have tried to get in touch with them but no luck so far, if you know anyone i can contact i would be very grateful though
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2012 16:09:52 GMT
Firstly, re contacting the Wellingborough League: Great idea, and we get the impression they are shrinking down to nothing and a resurgence in interest in 4-Pin may help to save them from extinction... Our contact on here was Pete the Plumber but we haven't heard from him for a couple of years. Wellingborough B-B League has never had its own website so this is a difficult one. The main pub around which activity was based seemed to be the Crown and Anchor - which did have a website but I see it's been withdrawn now. There is however this link that at least gives a phone number for contact: www.ukpubfinder.com/pub/20000Regarding tables, I think you have made a shrewd statement about a mixture of table types not being fair to all. I reckon you have a straight choice between providing 8 narrow tables from somewhere - or hiring 8 x 3-pin tables from the AEBBA which will obviously have a hire cost. Hopefully though AEBBA may be able to negotiate a special deal for you. Finally, returning to the Plate, may not be a good idea to try to run before you can walk ! The biggest UK Open, the Sussex, now in its 19th year, did not have a Plate to begin with, and when one was introduced it was for Ladies Only for a few years. Remember, a Plate for 32 players is likely to add 3 to 4 hours to the day and will probably be at the expense of having a lot of people leaving well before the end if the day drags on for too long. There's something to be said for the expression "Always leave 'em wanting more." :-/
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 2, 2012 16:58:55 GMT
Highlighting any major rules differences to the three pin game would help us lot. Sav. Here are the Sudbury Rules which we go by www.sdbbl.co.uk/page/rules.html
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 2, 2012 17:35:20 GMT
Firstly, re contacting the Wellingborough League: Great idea, and we get the impression they are shrinking down to nothing and a resurgence in interest in 4-Pin may help to save them from extinction... Our contact on here was Pete the Plumber but we haven't heard from him for a couple of years. Wellingborough B-B League has never had its own website so this is a difficult one. The main pub around which activity was based seemed to be the Crown and Anchor - which did have a website but I see it's been withdrawn now. There is however this link that at least gives a phone number for contact: www.ukpubfinder.com/pub/20000Regarding tables, I think you have made a shrewd statement about a mixture of table types not being fair to all. I reckon you have a straight choice between providing 8 narrow tables from somewhere - or hiring 8 x 3-pin tables from the AEBBA which will obviously have a hire cost. Hopefully though AEBBA may be able to negotiate a special deal for you. Finally, returning to the Plate, may not be a good idea to try to run before you can walk ! The biggest UK Open, the Sussex, now in its 19th year, did not have a Plate to begin with, and when one was introduced it was for Ladies Only for a few years. Remember, a Plate for 32 players is likely to add 3 to 4 hours to the day and will probably be at the expense of having a lot of people leaving well before the end if the day drags on for too long. There's something to be said for the expression "Always leave 'em wanting more." :-/ Some great points made, thanks Tommo, I shall start making my phone calls very soon regarding the Wellingborough guys. Thanks for the link I have messaged the AEBBA Sec and waiting for their response, youre right, 8 standard tables will be alot fairer I just needed the clarification so thanks again. The plate.... I can see what you mean by "a Plate for 32 players is likely to add 3 to 4 hours to the day" it could drag, yes. But again, Im still open for debate due to the point made earlier that, if for example someone travelled from afar then was knocked out straight away, wouldnt it seem a bit of a waste of time coming all that way for a possible one game? Like I say, jury still out for that one do you think? hmmmmmm Lots of time to for everyone to give their opinion :)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2012 19:02:59 GMT
Like I say, jury still out for that one do you think? hmmmmmm Lots of time to for everyone to give their opinion :) Agree, serious debate needed on that point, lots of views of others needed. To add flavour to the event, may I suggest we use mushrooms instead of pegs ? I have 3 sets that I would be willing to lend for the day which means 5 more sets to rustle up ! :D
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Post by Colemanator on Nov 2, 2012 20:48:19 GMT
Wellingboro league is still going, it has eight teams, Their presentation evening is this Tuesday night at the Locomotive pub, and they have a meeting at the Loco the night before at 8-15pm northantscamra.referata.com/wiki/Locomotive,_Wellingborough
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 5, 2012 12:02:17 GMT
Things seem to be moving on very quickly!! I have a date in mind (just need to be clarified with the AEBBA Sec about table hire) and also I have a venue! Just waiting for a few minor details to come back. Refreshments are now sorted out. Just waiting for someone to call me back from the Wellingbrough league now, they have a meeting tonight in the Locomotive Pub for their presentation night tomorrow (Thanks for the link Colemanator!) So heres hoping for a reply...
Just the Sudbury League to contact then were nearly there....
Tommo, we have mushrooms on our tables anyway so theres another 4 sets, and we have another pub which should be getting their table delivered within the next 2 weeks, hopefully they will have mushrooms too, so with your sets if we can borrow them, would be great! Thanks for that :)
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Post by milko on Nov 5, 2012 13:21:23 GMT
Most of the "4 pin" rules are similar to ours but here's a few differences to the AEBBA rules that we should bear in mind when entering THEIR Open tournament.
When the red ball is sunk, the score of that ball is doubled. The red ball must then be played from the 'D'. If a peg is knocked from its correct position without falling over, it shall remain in that position until the player has concluded his/her break. It will then be replaced correctly. If the ball is touching the peg, and the peg has not been removed from its correct position, that ball shall remain in play, and NOT be removed from the table. Once a player leaves the table their break is deemed over, should a ball fall down a hole after they have left the table this will not count towards their break or their opponents break unless their opponent has first struck the cue ball whether or not it strikes another ball. The last ball on the table shall be played from the centre of the 'D', into any hole off any cushion. If the last ball is correctly played, but not holed, the player keeps the score of that break.
Foul Shots
The player loses the score of that break if... The player fails to play the red ball when it is available. If a combination of foul shots occur, then, regardless of sequence of events, the player shall suffer the greater penalty.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2012 13:23:27 GMT
Highlighting any major rules differences to the three pin game would help us lot. Sav. 1. 30s and 10s are reversed - takes a bit of getting used to (you wouldn't think it makes that much difference, but there's very little reward from corner shots and it encourages more play to the 10 hole). 2. Red must be played whenever available ! Takes us back 40 years ! 3. Scores are doubled after the bar has gone, so you can get 800 with the last red. 4. Nap of cloth on 4-pin tables normally goes back to front (on 3-pin we brush forwards.) Now, I'm not suggesting that we do that on our AEBBA championship set if these are used, but all 4-pinners should be made aware of this difference and also that our tables are both wider and shorter to what they've been used to ! Note - Milko and tommo both on the case at the same time without collusion....great minds think alike ! ;D ;D
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Post by milko on Nov 5, 2012 13:40:05 GMT
Blimey Clive, that's scary! ;D
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Post by milko on Nov 5, 2012 13:46:32 GMT
Highlighting any major rules differences to the three pin game would help us lot. Sav. 1. 30s and 10s are reversed - takes a bit of getting used to (you wouldn't think it makes that much difference, but there's very little reward from corner shots and it encourages more play to the 10 hole). 2. Red must be played whenever available ! Takes us back 40 years ! 3. Scores are doubled after the bar has gone, so you can get 800 with the last red. 4. Nap of cloth on 4-pin tables normally goes back to front (on 3-pin we brush forwards.) Now, I'm not suggesting that we do that on our AEBBA championship set if these are used, but all 4-pinners should be made aware of this difference and also that our tables are both wider and shorter to what they've been used to ! Note - Milko and tommo both on the case at the same time without collusion....great minds think alike ! ;D ;D Are you reading the same set of rules as me, Clive ? :-/ (Scores shall have the same value before and after the gate has dropped. The red ball will continue to score double.)
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 5, 2012 13:54:02 GMT
Are you reading the same set of rules as me, Clive ? :-/ (Scores shall have the same value before and after the gate has dropped. The red ball will continue to score double.) The rules we play are that after the bar drops, the scoring stays the same until there is 1 ball left, either the red or white. If scores are within 200 of each other (with the White ball still up) or 400 of each other (the red ball still up) The scoreboard is dropped down, both of the mushrooms covering the 50 points are dropped into those holes, you then play the rebound shot either into the 100 or 200 point hole to decide the winner Hope that clears things up a bit
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Post by milko on Nov 5, 2012 14:01:01 GMT
Are you reading the same set of rules as me, Clive ? :-/ (Scores shall have the same value before and after the gate has dropped. The red ball will continue to score double.) The rules we play are that after the bar drops, the scoring stays the same until there is 1 ball left, either the red or white. If scores are within 200 of each other (with the White ball still up) or 400 of each other (the red ball still up) The scoreboard is dropped down, both of the mushrooms covering the 50 points are dropped into those holes, you then play the rebound shot either into the 100 or 200 point hole to decide the winner Hope that clears things up a bit I'm going to have a lie down now because I've got a headache! ::)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2012 14:01:04 GMT
Are you reading the same set of rules as me, Clive ? :-/ No, haven't checked the Sudbury rules yet, I was quoting Wellingborough Rules as according to Fazza: ;D I played in the Wellingborough 4-pin league for one summer season years ago. I found that the game was won and lost AFTER the bar had dropped because all scores are then doubled, including the requisite 200 last ball shot where, if the red was kept for it, 800 could be scored. If you bear in mind that good scores were in the region of 1500 - 2500, you will see that the first 15 mins of the game were almost irrelevant.
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 5, 2012 14:16:37 GMT
Another question open for debate which I must ask, does anyone have a prefered day to play in the Open? I was thinking of a Saturday, purely because the info I got from the AEBBA for the hire of the tables was for them to drop them off on a friday then collect them on the sunday. But after chatting to Clive, this could result in a problem due to people working?
Opinions?
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David.G
Distinguished Member
Posts: 550
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Post by David.G on Nov 5, 2012 19:50:35 GMT
Another question open for debate which I must ask, does anyone have a prefered day to play in the Open? I was thinking of a Saturday, purely because the info I got from the AEBBA for the hire of the tables was for them to drop them off on a friday then collect them on the sunday. But after chatting to Clive, this could result in a problem due to people working? Opinions? Sorry for the confusion Carl. Only the OXFORD open is played on a saturday becuase the Inter-Area 7s are played on the same tables on the Sunday. All other opens are played on the Sunday because local tournaments are played on the Saturday. With me so far? Good :D I normally deliver the tables on friday so the oganizers can set them up ready for the weekend I then collect LATE ON SUNDAY evening when the 'OPEN' is at an end That clears that up me thinks ;D ;D
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Post by Carls421 on Nov 5, 2012 20:01:26 GMT
Ahhhh I see, that makes more sense now, many thanks :)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2012 21:32:34 GMT
So, in effect, the hire is for a weekend rather than by the day, and you can put the tables to a use of your own choice on the 'free' day.
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Post by Colemanator on Nov 5, 2012 23:12:50 GMT
I would suggest that the open be played on the correct 4 pin tables, just like jersey is played on Jersey tables. The four pin game players would probably struggle with their type of shots on a 3 pin table adapted to a four pin, the wellingboro tables are completely different.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2012 9:53:27 GMT
I would suggest that the open be played on the correct 4 pin tables, just like jersey is played on Jersey tables. The four pin game players would probably struggle with their type of shots on a 3 pin table adapted to a four pin, the wellingboro tables are completely different. That would throw the cat amongst the pigeons, Ian, as there are only 4 tables maintained to League standard in Norwich. Competition would have to be scaled down by 50%.
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Post by Colemanator on Nov 6, 2012 10:02:42 GMT
It would deteat the object playing on 3 pin tables?
Surely a few tables could be sourced in sudbury?
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