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Post by Carls421 on Mar 24, 2013 10:29:18 GMT
Hi everyone!!!
So, it's done, The very 1st East Anglian 4-Pin Bar Billiards 'Open'. Before I post the results as it happened, I just wanted to say a few things, and I make no apologies for saying thank you so many times to every single one of you for making it such a successful, enjoyable, fun, day and evening.
First of all, getting into the Hall went very smoothly! The Weight watchers were kind enough to finish their meeting around 15 minutes early for us, so we get in and set up as quickly as possible, emails will be winging their way to them thanking them for their invaluable co-operation, we ended up only 15 minutes behind the 11am starting schedule! We did have a little bit of a mushroom crisis to begin with i.e. lack of them, but we managed to get round it and all the tables were set up exactly the same in the end so thanks to everyone who brought spare mushroom.
From beginning to the end of the night, there were very willing volunteers, everyone from the Bar Staff, players, 3-Pinners, 4-Pinners, Davina the Chef, to the Hall Warden, all helping out to make the whole event run as smoothly as it did, even for the clean up at the end, which never happens at events!
As I mentioned Davina above, I personally want to thank her on here for her sterling job doing the catering for the day, the Chilli was made from scratch, my house still has the aroma, which is great! :D For someone who doesn't especially like cooking, I thought it tasted great! Maybe I'm a little bias, but all 14 litres of it sold, so it must have been ok!!! Thanks again x
The one downside was the Raffle, which unfortunately I couldn't hold because mainly, I really didn't have time, but there were very few prizes also. My own fault for not advertising it as much as I should have done, I gave the donated prizes back to everyone who brought them, but I do still have 2 DVDs here where I couldn't find the person who brought them, so if its you, then please let me know, and I shall post them back to you. A learning curve for myself on that one! Sorry.
With all the thanks that were given at the end of the night, I failed to thank you guys for bringing the tables, setting them up so well and packing them all up at the end of the night, my sincere apologies, If i can take the opportunity now, it was all done very very professionally and the tables are fantastic! so very well looked after, you're a credit to the AEBBA.
Mike Preston, the Hall warden, spoke to me at the end whilst we were clearing up and asked me to pass on his huge thanks to everyone for the respect we gave to the building and especially expressed what genuinely lovely people were at the event. So, again, a real heartfelt thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
I would love to give a game by game run down of what happen through-out the tournament and until the end but unfortunately I only had chance to see 3 full games all night (the ones I played) So if anyone got to see any epic games (and from what I hear, there were quite a few) then please post.
So the official winners were
Main Competition
Winner
Curt Driver (Kent)
Runner Up
Clive Thompson (Surrey)
Semi Finalists
Kevin Tunstall (Sussex) Mark Trafford (Oxon)
Plate
Winner
Melvin Tilbury (Suffolk)
Plate Runner Up
Aaron White (Norwich)
Plate Semi Finalists
Roger Taylor (Sussex) Dave Edwards (Norwich)
Highest Break (Open)
Nigel Senior (Sussex) (Break of 2040)
Highest Break by a lady
Emma Lightfoot (Norwich) (Break of 390)
Furthest Lady Player
Hayley Tunstall (Sussex) NOT LORIN CLOUGH!!! (I'm never ever going to live that one down!!!)
So, many many congratulations to everyone who won Prizes, and my sincere apologies to Lorin for almost giving you a sex change for the evening, unfortunately I don't think I got the chance to meet you properly during the evening so during the rush to get the presentations underway, I clearly had too many ales and unintentionally got you down as a lady!!! Although I am told your name on the forum is Elsie? (Am I digging myself a bigger hole?? I'll be quiet...)
Moving on.....Before I get into the rut of rambling on for far too long, I think the whole 'Open' was a real eye opener for us 4-Pinners and maybe to some 3-Pinners too? We learned so so much from the night, our guys chatting to you guys about the game and different styles of play etc. I suppose this was a really good experiment in some ways, for both versions of the game. It will be very interesting to hear what you 3-Pinners got out of the whole thing, although that's probably a best talked about on a completely different thread on the forum. Although from this, we at Norwich are now in talks with the Sudbury guys to get a 4-Pin Inter-League on the go as soon as possible, so watch this space.
So to end my ramble, thanks again for such a great event, you guys made it what it was. We will be having another one, hopefully this time next year. The Sudbury guys stated that they are interested in organising it next time, so it won't be so far for everyone to travel for one thing! I'm really looking forward to it already!!
Sorry Ive gone on for so long on this post, but all things I've said, needed to be individually pointed out, again, I make no apologies for saying thank you so many times, but each and every one is really meant from the heart.
THANK YOU!!
Carl
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Post by Colemanator on Mar 24, 2013 10:30:24 GMT
Well, what happened to the 4 pin opposition?
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Post by Carls421 on Mar 24, 2013 10:48:55 GMT
East Anglian 4-Pin 'Open' 2013 Results Please use the Tabs at the bottom of Excel to look at all the results Thanks Carl Attachments:
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Post by daveuk1 on Mar 24, 2013 11:46:08 GMT
Great job Carl, well done mate,
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Post by Chris_Sav on Mar 24, 2013 12:20:44 GMT
East Anglian 4-Pin 'Open' 2013 Results Please use the Tabs at the bottom of Excel to look at all the results Thanks Carl Congratulations to you and your team Carl. I have added the results to the AEBBA site, for those without Excel. Most interesting, I thought you locals would fare better, was it the wider tables foxing you? Sav
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Post by daveuk1 on Mar 24, 2013 12:32:48 GMT
lol Sav I think for most of us the problem was starting drinking at 10;30 in the morning ;)
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Post by Carls421 on Mar 24, 2013 12:58:21 GMT
Thanks for that Sav, possibly the wider tables, although we have all different sized tables at out venues so I wouldn't have thought that would be the issue. From the feedback i seem to be getting, and in no way are they excuses. Most people were saying the tables were very fast, not saying too fast, but maybe just faster than we're used too, maybe the nap of the cloth being a different way makes the difference? I don't know, but it took me quite a bit of time to get used to the tables, maybe we're just not used to playing on them? It's all maybe maybe maybe? But a really interesting talking point.
What I did notice though, the limited amount of time I did get to watch any games, and this is just my limited observation, I think the style of play was very obvious between the 3-Pinners and 4-Pinners.
Watching our 4-Pinners (and I do the same too) we take the break, try to position the balls so we can go for the 100 and 200 high scoring holes when we can, but as a back up still try to pot the cue ball at the same time.
3-Pinners seemed to take the break and try to pot 2 balls into the lower scoring holes (20 and 30) on every shot, once they got that shot to pretty much perfection during the night, we pretty much had no chance get on the table and score. Sounds very much like the way 3-Pin Billiards is played, is that right?
Like I say, we don't play that style, the question is, should we? Maybe, Maybe not? Personally, I would get very bored if someone was playing the same shot every shot in 3, and Bar Billiards for me wouldn't have the same appeal. Just my own opinion, Ive yet to hear what everyone else says from here, or indeed, it will be VERY interesting to see which shots people will be taking in our League now..... Ill keep you posted!!
But all in all, like I said, it was interesting to watch.
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Post by SirKT on Mar 24, 2013 13:30:44 GMT
Well done Carl on organising your 1st Open. We had a very enjoyable day and it was a bonus for one of us to reach the semi-finals as we had no aspirations as to how far we would go under these rules. Well done to Davina for the lovely Chilli and to everyone who helped make the day possible.
I think we made the right decision to leave before the finals as the weather had made the journey back along the A11 atrocious. Had Hayley not had to work today, we would probably have stayed another night. Our accomodation at the William IV was excellent and would recommend staying there. Pity we didn`t get a chance to sample the extensive menu (we arrived to late to order) but the breakfast certainly made up for it.
Thanks to all the locals who made our visit more welcoming and we will definitely come back again (work permitting of course).
Well done to Curt on winning and to Tommo (who took me out in the semis) and to Lady H for the Furthest lady :)
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Post by Carls421 on Mar 24, 2013 14:30:48 GMT
lol Sav I think for most of us the problem was starting drinking at 10;30 in the morning ;) Oh yeah, a bit of that too ;D
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Post by Chris_Sav on Mar 24, 2013 14:34:07 GMT
Yes the AEBBA competition tables have the highest quality superfine cloth available. I would guess with all the high scoring holes guarded by pegs, that makes pace critical. Thus if the four pinners are not used to that speed of cloth, the three pinners are.
Brush the nap the wrong way next year ;D ;D
Sav.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Mar 24, 2013 17:32:04 GMT
it will be VERY interesting to see which shots people will be taking in our League now..... Ill keep you posted!! But all in all, like I said, it was interesting to watch. Hi Carl The great thing about cross county comps is that we all see what others are doing, I'm sure that a lot of your talented players will weigh up the pros and cons of playing less aggressive shots whilst staying on the table longer and come back next year being a lot harder to beat and getting highers scores/averages to boot (by the way that's the opposite of what i did but I still held the highest break..... for a while :'(). well done to Luke Cole-Watts(Suffolk) and Charlie Holden (Norwich) both getting to the QF's and to all who took part especially those awkward 3 pinners who did the long distance work. Personal log, make sure i take a sat nav that has more up to date maps, spent too much time driving down pedestrian routes in Norwich ::) 8-) regs cs
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Post by NigelS on Mar 24, 2013 18:24:21 GMT
First of all I would like to say well done to Carl for organizing this first 4 pin open. He took a hell of a lot on (especially when his missus was also helping him to help out in the kitchen!) and it all went very well I thought.
My thoughts as a '3 pinner' are that I think that tournament experience came into play a lot during the course of the day. For example a lot of the local 4 pin players went for the 200 hole at the end of the first leg, risking all the work they had done in the first leg in one shot, with one leg still to play! Indeed I know there was at least on occasion where the player who went for the 200 hole was actually in front. There is an art to playing best of 2 matches and us 3 pinners who play a tournament a month a very used to this discipline whereas I imagine 4 pinners aren't so.
I agree with Carl that the styles of play were very different. 4 pinners tended to go for the big shots, even with points at stake, whereas 3 pinners tended to pick up points and banking their breaks. Curt did say the key to his win was banking most of his scorers all day - he even touched up on 390 in the final.
The 3 pinners tended to find a break which would guarantee one ball at least, my personal one was the white in the right 50 leaving the red down the left hand side of the table, Clive Thompson was hitting the red into the right 10 (the 3 pinners 30 pocket!) leaving him a white near the 50, other 3 pinners (KT, Curt, Mark James, Milko) went for both balls down the back often getting the left hand 10 with the red and the middle 30 hole with the white. Carl is right that 3 pinners look to play a break shot they can repeat over and over. It seems a big difference is that we aim to stay on the table potting at least one ball to stay on, not minding what we score, whereas the 4 pinners tended to go for big scoring shots knowing that usually they get plenty of visits to the table during a game. 3 pinners are used to spending a lot of time watching if they miss and maybe that mentality took over - I think I spent the last 7 minutes against Jon Bamsey scoring a 2,040, but of course because I was in front I knew keeping Jon off the table gave him no chance of winning.
A learning experience for everyone I think, I hope to have another go next year if it goes ahead - and I hope it does. Also I think it would be great if some 4 pinners came over and played 3 pin, I am not sure if some will like the concept of only getting one visit to the the table over 2 legs, but come with an open mind!
Oh and congratulations to Curt for winning, and Tommo of course for his first national final ;)
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Post by barbelman on Mar 25, 2013 9:13:08 GMT
Back from the lovely city of Norwich and firstly a huge vote of thanks to Carl and Davina for the brilliant day on Saturday. The amount of energy Carl invested in the event had to be seen to be believed... The venue was great, the tables played well (thanks to Ian and Mark!), the beer was superb and the chilli was excellent and very welcome!
Many congratulations to Curt on winning the main competition, he played well all day and to Tommo (who knocked me out :-/ ;D) on his first appearance in a final. In the plate Melvin Tilbury thoroughly deserved his victory over Aaron, and it was good to see the 4 pinners well represented in the final stages.
As to the games themselves, I thought the 4-pin format worked very well on the AEBBA tables and every game was far more absorbing than most of our normal 2-leg 3-pin games once one had adjusted to the slow scoring rate. All games were close but there were very few (none?) instances where the second leg was a formality either due to differing abilities or an unattainable score - I liked it to be honest. :D
Highlights of the day were out friend Tommo reaching the final, the transgender Lorin affair, the beer and Becky keeping us entertained all day ;D ;D. All the locals were very friendly and welcoming and it would be interesting to hear their views on the format and the tables with respect to the way they play the game. I think Nigel is right when he says that out more cautious approach to the game was more successful on the day on the fast 3-pin tables but I'm sure it would have been different on the slower narrow tables that the 4-pinners are used to.
Thanks again to everyone
Tony
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 14:21:20 GMT
Okay, we're now back home too, and what a great adventure the first-ever East Anglian 4-Pin Open turned out to be, meeting such a lovely bunch of people and playing their version of the game in a really sporting atmosphere. The theoretical part on the game can wait for the moment, but I would like to congratulate Carl and Davina on doing an absolutely first class job with the organisation, with a great attention to detail like where we could leave the car safely and providing tea, coffee, and coke as alternatives for those of us who didn't want to overdo it on the rather potent ciders....... Here are same snaps from a most memorable day: Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 14:25:06 GMT
..........next the Golden Star landlord doing his stint manning the 'bar': Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 14:29:31 GMT
....an impressive array of trophies: Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 14:31:24 GMT
....and Margo took this one of the finalists: anyone put a name to the face of the 'third man' in the picture ?Attachments:
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Post by NigelS on Mar 25, 2013 14:43:57 GMT
Good pics tommo, I am looking forward to the theoretical break down from the 4 pin number 2 ;)
Sent from my GT-S5830 using ProBoards
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 15:04:08 GMT
So we didn't get the anticipated Norfolk v Suffolk final, but I was tickled pink to do so well: perhaps my rather cagey style of play is suited to 4-Pin ! Many thanks to everyone for their kind comments, and congratulations to Curt on his win and on making a bit of history.
There were, however, some very skilful 4-Pinners displaying their art and many should feel proud of what they achieved. I think it's worth listing them here:
Quarter-finalists of main competition: Charlie Holden (Norwich) Luke Cole-Watts (Suffolk) Charlie particularly gave Curt a good run for his money in the Qr Final.
Last 16 of Main Competition: Carl Robinson (Norwich) Alasdair Carnegie (Suffolk) Steve Hale (Suffolk)
Winner, Plate Competition Melvin Tilbury (Suffolk)
Runner-up, Plate Competition Aaron White (Norwich)
Semi-Finalist, Plate Competition Dave Edwards (Norwich)
Quarter-Finalists, Plate Competition Dennis Watts (Suffolk) and Jon Smith and Ray Lewis (both Norwich)
Well done to all these, as there were some pretty seasoned Tournament competitors in the original lineup !
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Post by milko on Mar 25, 2013 16:24:05 GMT
Good comments as usual by Nigel and Tony.
Well done to Curt on winning this and to Clive for reaching the final. (He still denies being the Tommo in that 4pin singles comp ;))
I also thought the tournament was a total success due to Carl putting a lot of hard work in before and on the day to make it all possible for us all to enjoy, so a big well done and thank you to him and to Davina. It was great to see the willingness of the 4pinners to constantly sit down to mark most of the matches and especially Aaron White who after I played him on table two carried on to mark the next two or three matches afterwards on that table and what a friendly chap he is too so I’m glad he got to the plate final. He was also still there with one other guy, who I don’t know the name of to help take down and load the van up with the tables at the end of the day with Mark & Ian and with a little help from Jon, Tony, Lin & myself.
A big thank you must go to Ian & Mark who helps Dave to deliver the AEBBA tables to this and other events when he’s not doing the hard work himself.
I did think the venue was cosy but a little too small for an event like this but as Carl had to find a replacement for the original venue at short notice I can understand his problem. You did have to watch your back though when people were passing and I did see a lot of players knocked. I managed to hit curt twice (I did apologise) while I was stood watching KT against me on table 4 and Curt was playing on table 5 because there wasn’t enough space to stand behind the player at that end of the room and I won’t stand between the tables in the players view like a lot of players were doing!
Perhaps that’s why I lost that match to KT because of lack of concentration ;) No it was a good match that swung one way to the next with me banking a 1,000 brk in the first and then coming back with another brk of 1k at the end of the 2nd leg leaving me about 80 points behind with two white balls left. I sunk one ball off the break and decided to go for the 200 pocket instead of the 100 but missed the hole completely, KT then only had to get the ball down the 100 to win even if he did knock the peg down but he also went too far down the cushion, unbelievably we both did the same thing with our next attempt giving me a third chance but this time I rimmed the hole knocking over the peg. I will finish by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed the experience of playing 4pin and hope to be able to take part in it again next year.
Keith 8-)
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Post by milko on Mar 25, 2013 16:30:28 GMT
....and Margo took this one of the finalists: anyone put a name to the face of the 'third man' in the picture ?Is it David Stiff of Suffolk ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 16:40:07 GMT
I am looking forward to the theoretical break down from the 4 pin number 2 ;) Well much of it has been covered already by yourself, and Carl, and K.T, and Tony, and Sav, but I would say that this first Open favoured 4-pinners and 3-pinners equally - and maybe it shouldn't ! ;) Discussed this with one of the top 4-pinners, Alasdair Carnegie, and he thought the conditions were very fair as the superb AEBBA tables all played 'the same' although maybe a little faster to what they were used to. I wouldn't recommend brushing back to front, as one go at this will just serve to lift the nap and a distended effort could muck them up for the future. It may be an idea, though, to set the tables to go 'uphill' to encourage more "up and back shots" for the 50s, 100 and 200 (which is really in the spirit of what 4-pin is about but of which I saw very few on the day). This leads me on to the difference in approach from the players. Yes, all the top 3-pinners are good at keeping going (boring b*ggers !) even on the small-value holes, and probably know extra tricks to get both balls down the holes to achieve the starting position again. There is even one shot we play (in the corner to get two balls in for 20 and 10) which can't be done on a narrow table ! So IMHO for next year, conditions should be set up to encourage more traditional 4-pin shots. Which leads me on to a) the approach to taking the break shot, and b) mushrooms! ;D It was Nigel I think who pointed out that the top (International) 3-pinners had sussed that the most effective way to play the break was a thickish whack to pot object ball off the cush into the left-hand 10 and the cueball with running side off the opposite cush down to the (central) 30. This routine helped Nigel to his prizewinning 2k break, and was all very well until a ball parked itself behind the central back pocket (as happened twice to K.T. in his semi-final against me - once he picked it off with a great shot, but the second time it let him down). And after that it was a case of keeping what they scored. I was however fascinated by Colin (aka Gandalf)'s brave effort to pot a normal 50 - 50 break with bags of right-hand-side on the cueball which demands extreme accuracy. He was a braver man than me, and my chosen break shot was to play a thick shot to the right-hand 10 and leave the white ball by the 50 for potting chances, or even pot it off the break if it looked 'on': There was the 'rub', as I found that the pegs tended to topple too easily - much readier than the mushrooms I had practised with on my home table ! So would you believe that half of my 'best game' was missing as I was unable to aim shots for half a pocket (50 or 100). So what went right for me ? I hear you ask (as if you cared!) Well the other bit of preparation was to take advantage of the switch of value of pockets (10 for 30) and I practised angled shots into the (central) 30 which we 3-pinners wouldn't normally consider playing as for us it's a low-scoring hole. But get the red in there a few times and the score soon shoots up ! So, short of playing next year on Narrow tables designed for the 4-pin game, I would welcome setting the tables to be slightly uphill - and mushrooms all round ! ;D ;D Whatever happens, I'm up for more of the same and I reckon you may even get a few more wanting to take part next year if we all spread the word. 8-)
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Post by NigelS on Mar 25, 2013 19:25:54 GMT
Most 3 pinners did go for the 10-30 break shot Tommo. I actually was playing a similar break shot to you, but I was primarily going for the white in the right hand 50 and sending the red towards the left 10 - it was this method that helped me to the 2,040 break. From what I saw you were more going for the red object ball and leaving the white near the left 50 to play off.
This worked for me on the first 3 tables which were uphill. I was stuffed on the 4th table I played which was downhill as I couldnt hold the white for the right 50 and I had to play the 10-30 break shot, like the other 3 pinners. I do agree with you Tommo in that uphill tables would help the 4 pinners as it would make it easier to to play shots of the back cushion into the 50's, 100 and 200, plus mushrooms which definitely can take a bigger clout than our pegs!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 21:22:52 GMT
Yes indeed that routine - along with lady luck when needed - served me well right up until the Final, where there seemed to be a temperature drop halfway through and Curt was able to adjust to the changing conditions better than me.
So, any ideas on how the AEBBA might be able to source two dozen mushrooms (12 white, 6 red and 6 black) ? They can be bought new in sets of four, but at about £30 a set don't come cheap. :-/
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curtd
Distinguished Member
Posts: 616
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Post by curtd on Mar 26, 2013 7:47:23 GMT
Hi All
Well I thought I had better add my bit :)
I have to say Im chuffed to bits to be the first 4-pin Open winner. The chance to be the first to win something doesn't come around that often and my trophy has pride of place.
After my first practise at the 4 pin game I soon realised that keeping any score I get would be the way forward as my first 3 attempts at getting a break shot resulted in 5 pegs being knocked over.DOH
I decided to try and stay away from any peg so went for the red ball in the left 10 hole with the white then slowly making its way up towards the 30 or right 20 (depending on how much side I got)This didnt always work but one ball usually went in. I certainly didnt try to leave balls for the 200,100 and 50 holes as the risk was to high as would always look to get the points on the board.I think I only knocked over a couple of pegs all day and certainly didnt get any breaks of over a 1000. I think I made a couple of 800's but most of my scoring was in the low 100's. But most importantly I kept them :)
One point on tactics that Nigel has already brought up. In one of my games (cant remember which) I was about 2200-1200 up at the end of the first game with the last ball left. My opponent elected to go for the 200 and lost his score, instead of keeping what he had and taking it into the next game. This one shot pretty much handed me the game.
Would like to congratulate Clive for getting to his first national final and say thanks to Carl and the rest of the team that put the day on.
Thanks
Curt
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Post by Carls421 on Mar 26, 2013 8:43:40 GMT
Lots more photos on our Facebook page if anyone wants to have a look? If anyone has any more photos, then please add them! m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/NorwichBarBilliards?__user=710448992
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Post by milko on Mar 26, 2013 12:49:14 GMT
I forgot to add that even though Carl was unable to get my John Smiths in for me I still enjoyed the real ale that was being sold. I think it was called "Humpty Dumpty Ale" anyway it was very nice. 8-)
Perhaps I've been converted!
milko ;D
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Post by lukecw1 on Mar 26, 2013 16:29:15 GMT
Quarter-Finalists, Plate Competition Jon Smith, Dennis Watts and Ray Lewis (all Norwich)
Just so you know, Dennis Watts is a Suffolk BB Player
I know someone had an accidental sex change in all this, but to put a Suffolk player down as Norwich, it's just sacrilege ;)
Luke CW :)
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Mar 26, 2013 17:17:33 GMT
Quarter-Finalists, Plate Competition Jon Smith, Dennis Watts and Ray Lewis (all Norwich) Just so you know, Dennis Watts is a Suffolk BB Player I know someone had an accidental sex change in all this, but to put a Suffolk player down as Norwich, it's just sacrilege ;) Luke CW :) hi LukeCW Nice to see some new young blood on the boards, hope to see some match results/player averages posted here in due course PS please wait for the balls to go down!!! ::) regs cs
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2013 17:41:16 GMT
Just so you know, Dennis Watts is a Suffolk BB Player I know someone had an accidental sex change in all this, but to put a Suffolk player down as Norwich, it's just sacrilege ;) Luke CW :) Apologies for that, and please pass on to your dad. ;) Have amended my original post. As Colin says, big welcome and hope to hear more on here from you and the blue and white camp.
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