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Post by milhouse on Apr 16, 2013 9:57:18 GMT
The problem with just allocating time slots for the plate would be that if there were 33 players, you would then have just 1 prelim match which would have to be played on it's own. Whereas now, that game would be played at the same time as the main comp (Does that make sense?)
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Apr 16, 2013 10:13:55 GMT
Yes that makes sense.
My solution would be to hold the prelim game and all the other “1st round” matches at the same time.
Of course that means one (or maybe a couple of matches) in the plate match will always be a round behind so to speak, but with a slightly more adjustable schedule this match could be “made up” in another series of games allocated for the main competition, if there is a spare table of course. I’m thinking it could be made up at the quarter finals stage at the latest (given that only 4 games would be played in the main comp that series). Given that plate games are one leg, a few games in the plate might have to be played one after another during a series of main comp games.
That way we could avoid having to play a single game in the plate just to get everyone in the “1st round” at the same time with all those tables sitting there unused.
Does that makes sense, or am I just blowing smoke?
Or…….
Another work around to this solution, and I think this may be slightly easier. Rather than have all main competitions in one series of 45 minutes, and then all plate games in another series of 45 (or 25) minutes, would it not be simpler from the 1st round onwards to always have say 8 main comp games being played simultaneously alongside a couple of plate games? That way you can just have a couple of matches one after the other which would be far, far easier to manage.
I’m aware of the table allocation issue that would go with it, but I’ll leave that problem till later.
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Post by milhouse on Apr 16, 2013 10:18:24 GMT
In an ideal world, the Quarter-Final of the main and Plate will be played at the same time and both be double games (If the schedule allows of course!)
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Post by BB Warrior on Apr 16, 2013 10:24:41 GMT
Seriously, the discussion has now taken a move in the right direction, and there exists a viable option for if there is a Plate with too many dropouts. 8-) Agree entirely that Glenn's system would appear viable to provide a simple solution to having an instant re-draw for a Plate Competition, providing all of the variables concerning table draw and times for the Main Competition could be factored in to make sure that those didn't clash.... ;) I know that is possible, however would take some time to program, and would probably mean that all of the Opens would have to use the same spreadsheet system for their competitions which could mean that they would probably lose the "flexibility" on start times which would probably mean that some players with long journeys would have early starts which I know organisers try to avoid, if possible.... :-/ It does leave a couple of questions still though... 1) Do the organisers use the "random draw system" for the Plate in every competition, or do they wait to see how many people drop out before they make that decision? 2) To be fair, most players do let the organisers and their opponents know that they are going to leave without playing their Plate game.... but some don't. IMHO that is very disrespectful to both their opponent and the competition.... and obviously that could have an impact on whether the "random draw" should be used or not? It was the second point here that made me actually start this thread after I witnessed something that I thought was simply unbelievable on Sunday.... ::) A player lost their opening match in one of the early series of games on the day and then stayed at the venue for the next 4 hours before leaving a couple of minutes before they were due to play their Plate game.... :o .... yes, they left as the games in the previous series in the main competition were just ending with their Plate match in the next series! :o >:( To be fair to that person, they had informed the organisers that they weren't going to play in the Plate, however the first that their opponent knew about it was when their opponent heard their name called out with the words "has a bye" after it.... I was talking to the person at the time and had offered to score the game for them! ::) You can perhaps understand that they were disappointed that their opponent had left without them knowing about it.... they had lost their first round game very heavily against one of the top players, had their Plate opponent walk out 5 minutes before they were due to play them and then had another 2 hour wait to play their next game which they lost before they even played a shot as their opponent went in with enough on their opening break.... ::) .... I was hardly surprised that as they left they said that they probably wouldn't bother to enter the competitions in future. >:( I know of at least one other player who had a similar experience a couple of years ago and they have not entered any of the competitions since then.... I wonder if other players may have been lost to the Open competitions as a result of things like this.... ::) ??? I respect that players obviously have the right to leave a competition at any time for whatever reason that they choose and agree that (my "fascist views" on) penalties should not be imposed on them for doing that.... however I do think that perhaps it wouldn't hurt for the players that choose to do this to consider the fact that their opponent will be left sitting around for an extra couple of hours as a result of their actions. :P Perhaps I have a different viewpoint to other people about taking part in the Opens.... when I enter a competition I always plan to be there for the whole day, usually arriving early and staying until the end regardless of whether I am actually still playing or not! There are always plenty of people to talk to and I enjoy scoring games as well, which perhaps some people find strange as there always seems to be a shortage of people willing to do that.... ::) So I really don't understand why somebody will choose to leave a competition before they have played in a Plate match when we all know that they would stay if they were in the main competition.... aren't we all there to simply "play the game" and enjoy it? It's a real mystery to me.... :-/
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Post by milhouse on Apr 16, 2013 10:54:54 GMT
So I really don't understand why somebody will choose to leave a competition before they have played in a Plate match when we all know that they would stay if they were in the main competition.... aren't we all there to simply "play the game" and enjoy it? It's a real mystery to me.... :-/ This is the best point made in the discussion! This is something i would very much like to hear views on!
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Post by milhouse on Apr 16, 2013 11:03:52 GMT
Here you go Glenn, try this spreadsheet! This should give you a draw without putting byes against each other... Attachments:
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Post by JB on Apr 16, 2013 11:11:17 GMT
In the Sussex the quarter finals of the main and plate are played at the same time and all games are double legs. With the format as it is this is possible and I think it gives the plate players more double leg games which to me is good.
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Post by JB on Apr 16, 2013 12:20:39 GMT
oh and in the properties it says authoe jean. i was convinced i spent hours and hours doing this lol
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Post by Ros on Apr 16, 2013 19:54:13 GMT
Seriously, the discussion has now taken a move in the right direction, and there exists a viable option for if there is a Plate with too many dropouts. 8-) Agree entirely that Glenn's system would appear viable to provide a simple solution to having an instant re-draw for a Plate Competition, providing all of the variables concerning table draw and times for the Main Competition could be factored in to make sure that those didn't clash.... ;) I know that is possible, however would take some time to program, and would probably mean that all of the Opens would have to use the same spreadsheet system for their competitions which could mean that they would probably lose the "flexibility" on start times which would probably mean that some players with long journeys would have early starts which I know organisers try to avoid, if possible.... :-/ It does leave a couple of questions still though... 1) Do the organisers use the "random draw system" for the Plate in every competition, or do they wait to see how many people drop out before they make that decision? 2) To be fair, most players do let the organisers and their opponents know that they are going to leave without playing their Plate game.... but some don't. IMHO that is very disrespectful to both their opponent and the competition.... and obviously that could have an impact on whether the "random draw" should be used or not? It was the second point here that made me actually start this thread after I witnessed something that I thought was simply unbelievable on Sunday.... ::) A player lost their opening match in one of the early series of games on the day and then stayed at the venue for the next 4 hours before leaving a couple of minutes before they were due to play their Plate game.... :o .... yes, they left as the games in the previous series in the main competition were just ending with their Plate match in the next series! :o >:( To be fair to that person, they had informed the organisers that they weren't going to play in the Plate, however the first that their opponent knew about it was when their opponent heard their name called out with the words "has a bye" after it.... I was talking to the person at the time and had offered to score the game for them! ::) You can perhaps understand that they were disappointed that their opponent had left without them knowing about it.... they had lost their first round game very heavily against one of the top players, had their Plate opponent walk out 5 minutes before they were due to play them and then had another 2 hour wait to play their next game which they lost before they even played a shot as their opponent went in with enough on their opening break.... ::) .... I was hardly surprised that as they left they said that they probably wouldn't bother to enter the competitions in future. >:( I know of at least one other player who had a similar experience a couple of years ago and they have not entered any of the competitions since then.... I wonder if other players may have been lost to the Open competitions as a result of things like this.... ::) ??? I respect that players obviously have the right to leave a competition at any time for whatever reason that they choose and agree that (my "fascist views" on) penalties should not be imposed on them for doing that.... however I do think that perhaps it wouldn't hurt for the players that choose to do this to consider the fact that their opponent will be left sitting around for an extra couple of hours as a result of their actions. :P Perhaps I have a different viewpoint to other people about taking part in the Opens.... when I enter a competition I always plan to be there for the whole day, usually arriving early and staying until the end regardless of whether I am actually still playing or not! There are always plenty of people to talk to and I enjoy scoring games as well, which perhaps some people find strange as there always seems to be a shortage of people willing to do that.... ::) So I really don't understand why somebody will choose to leave a competition before they have played in a Plate match when we all know that they would stay if they were in the main competition.... aren't we all there to simply "play the game" and enjoy it? It's a real mystery to me.... :-/ A great shame that someone should leave just minutes before a plate game - without even having the excuse that they think their time is more valuable than their opponent's! :o Another thought crossed my mind today: Most (if not all?) of the leagues in Sussex have some sort of team knockout cup each season. Those competitions also have a plate/shield or other competition for the losers in the first round. To the best of my knowledge, teams always contest those plate competitions just as fiercely as the main cup competitions. Correct me if I'm wrong - nobody would ever consider denying another team a match they were due to play on a given night (unless, as always, exceptional personal circumstances intervened) So how come that it is seen as being acceptable to do this to another individual player? To the point that those who dare to suggest penalties are branded as fascists. :o Do leagues in other counties have these sort of team knockouts with plate competitions in their fixture programme? Do teams ever pull out just because they are in the plate?
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colinm
Full Forum Member
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Post by colinm on Apr 16, 2013 21:34:46 GMT
So I really don't understand why somebody will choose to leave a competition before they have played in a Plate match when we all know that they would stay if they were in the main competition.... aren't we all there to simply "play the game" and enjoy it? It's a real mystery to me.... :-/ This is the best point made in the discussion! This is something i would very much like to hear views on! Ok so hear goes nothing, head about to rise above the parapet!! I think the biggest problem with the plate competition format as it currently stands is the waiting time for people losing in an early round of the main competition, they often have to wait hours for their first match in the plate, which under the current system can be one game in which they get no shot as their opponent goes in with enough. Whilst I do not always agree with leaving early I have done this myself at the Berks open last year, I lost in the first round at 10.00am and I believe my next game would have been 4.00pm! As I live in Reading I told the desk I was leaving and would not be playing in the plate and then left, I did however leave at around 10.45am not 3.55pm! I understand the organisational issues for the plate but I think if it were possible to play some games earlier, particularly for those that were knocked out early on that would keep more people around for the plate. Personally I like the idea of the redraw if it is feasable. On another topic it would be nice if we could ask each player to score at least one game at an open as the issue of scorers was evident on Sunday. I wouldn't name names but there do seem to be some people who don't score games whilst others score far more than their fair share. :-/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 22:51:01 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong - nobody would ever consider denying another team a match they were due to play on a given night (unless, as always, exceptional personal circumstances intervened) So how come that it is seen as being acceptable to do this to another individual player? To the point that those who dare to suggest penalties are branded as fascists. :o Do leagues in other counties have these sort of team knockouts with plate competitions in their fixture programme? Do teams ever pull out just because they are in the plate? As you've asked, yes it has been known to happen, in the 2011/12 Billingshurst Team Cup not only did the Limeburners elect to start in the Plate, conceding their Preliminary Round Cup match to Stout House Z, but furthermore the Fountain, having lost 2-3 to the Blue Ship Crown, declined to play in the Plate and conceded their match to the Railway. What I have never heard of in all the years I have been playing is any team or individual being punished for conceding a match and letting an opponent go through. Once that happens the lunatics really will have taken over the asylum. :-/
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Post by Sir Chancelot on Apr 16, 2013 23:19:29 GMT
I think this whole thread has to be taken into context, and some of you need to calm down 8-) 8-) 8-) Of all the opens I have attended, there are just as many no shows in the opening rounds of the singles. If a player decides not to play in the plate, through whatever reason, it is not a massive issue, and these withdrawals never usually last into the next round anyhow ;) That is why IMHO I do not think it is a massive problem, and no need to change a tried and trusted system which has worked for dozens of opens over many years :-X
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spudgun
Full Forum Member
Posts: 322
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Post by spudgun on Apr 17, 2013 0:23:05 GMT
I am an infrequent visitor of the opens but, and i know this has been shot down, I would like seeding in these competitions. 96 players, top 32 with byes, losers of round 1 and 2 to go to the plate. Why? It can be pretty tough if you turn up round 1 with a bum draw and are simply target practice for one of the favourites, then, after a good long wait, get destroyed by another favourite who happened to get drawn against an equal.
With seeding, first round players will have more of a chance of a good 2 frame game that feels like their moneys worth. Those who progress know they have, in all likelyhood, a hard match but still have the consolation of the plate if they lose. This does not stop the dangerous floaters of course, but seeding, to me, seems a fairer system to all players.
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Post by BB Warrior on Apr 17, 2013 4:51:31 GMT
What I have never heard of in all the years I have been playing is any team or individual being punished for conceding a match and letting an opponent go through. Once that happens the lunatics really will have taken over the asylum. :-/ Humbly suggest that you are wrong Tommo.... as any player that enters a competition and fails to turn up for their match (either in a League Competition or an Open) is "punished" by losing their entry fee! :P Also, many Leagues penalise teams for failing to fulfill fixtures, usually by awarding the points to their opponents, sometimes deducting points from the offending team.... and even kicking teams out of the League if they regularly fail to play their matches! :P Presumably that must mean that the organisers of all of the Opens and Leagues are "fascists", when all they are actually doing is trying to ensure that people actually PLAY their matches? :-/ We currently have a situation where the player who stays and wants to play his game is actually the one who is being "punished" as a direct result of the (totally selfish) decision of their opponent to go home.... not only are they having to wait around for a couple of extra hours before they play their next match but they are also losing any Ranking Points that they would have been entitled to by not playing that game as well. :o >:( If Tommo (or anybody) thinks that is fair and reasonable that the person who wants to play the game is the one that is actually punished then I would certainly agree that the lunatics have taken over the asylum already.... I also do not think that suggesting that either a refundable deposit or deduction of Ranking Points makes somebody a "fascist" when there would obviously be NO PENALTY if the player actually played their game. >:( There is a very simple and obvious solution to this "problem".... that would involve no changes to the current system and is in the hands of every player that takes part in any of the competitions.... don't go home if you get knocked out of the main competition, stay and PLAY THE GAMES!! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by H on Apr 17, 2013 9:13:32 GMT
It all boils down to respect and decency towards other people really...
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Apr 17, 2013 9:13:38 GMT
I’ll take a short time to add my thoughts on this discussion before getting back to spending time trying to find a solution. I’ll also try and be something that I’ve long not had to be on the forum… the diplomat!!
This is one of those debates that although I’m glad is being aired, is something that everyone is simply not ever going to agree upon. I say this because I can genuinely see all sides of the argument, but we have to realise that different people view the plate in different ways, and some people prioritise other things in their life in different ways.
It’s my view (and this is a view others hold too) that the plate competition exists to give players more game time on the day and to give lesser players a chance to win a trophy. But for me, my day is over when I’m out of the main competition. I would rather win 1 game in the main comp than win the plate all together, because to me you’ve achieved much more and progressed further by winning one game in the main competition than winning a separate competition made of up people who didn’t win their very first game. I’d rather score games for my friends and support them than play in a plate. I’m sorry but that’s just how I feel these days.
That said, and this is the key thing here. I like others respect that the plate for some people is a great part of the day that makes the entrance fee and travel time a little more worth while, which is why I’ve been spending my time trying to find a solution that fits everyone. I certainly would take the plate in Jersey far more seriously given the prestige of the competition, and when starting out in the game I like others benefitted greatly from entering the plates and gain valuable experience. That I believe will be vital in keeping our numbers up in the future, which is why I don’t “Dislike” plate competitions so to speak, it’s just that personally they are something which I don’t care that much about.
So you see, the plate represents different things to different people, and I think we have to respect that and not try and enforce our views of what people think it should be. For some people they are a vital and important part of the day and the make up of the competition, for some people they are a chance to gain experience, for some people they are a waste of time and not worthy of prioritising over say family time, or maybe even drinking time. We all have our opinions, and I hope that we can find a balance where we respect them all.
What I’m more interested in (and the reason I’m playing an active part in this discussion) is that there is a chance (all be it a small one with hurdles still to overcome) that we may be able to make some adjustments and have a situation that keeps everyone happy. A re-drawn plate (and maybe with some earlier games) would seem to be that solution, so if people think that’s a goal that’s actively worth pursuing I will gladly continue to do so.
One more quick thing I have to mention. With regards to this certain player that left 5 minutes before his plate game. If (and I apologise if I’m wrong) it’s the player who I believe it is, then I would henceforth prefer that people vent their anger at that situation to me. Although I completely respect other people’s views with regards to that situation, I would like to point out that not only did he withdraw from the plate almost as soon as he lost and was ready to go, I believe he stayed around mainly to help, support and encourage me in my games at my request. It was help that I greatly appreciated given the terrible form I’ve been having, and without him I and a few others would not be back playing at all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 11:08:08 GMT
Humbly suggest that you are wrong Tommo.... as any player that enters a competition and fails to turn up for their match (either in a League Competition or an Open) is "punished" by losing their entry fee! :P Also, many Leagues penalise teams for failing to fulfill fixtures, usually by awarding the points to their opponents, sometimes deducting points from the offending team.... and even kicking teams out of the League if they regularly fail to play their matches! :P Presumably that must mean that the organisers of all of the Opens and Leagues are "fascists", when all they are actually doing is trying to ensure that people actually PLAY their matches? :-/ Dave you are a word-twister extraordinaire ! I quite agree that forfeiture of the fee for whole or part of the day is a punishment, but it's punishment enough.And a self-imposed one, without the need for an organiser to come down on them like a ton of bricks, with an additional penalty of monetary fine or deduction of ranking points - which is what was being advocated. And by referencing points deductions for league matches, you appear to be indulging in the same thing as that which you accused me of earlier - comparing apples with oranges ! ;D ;D :P
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 11:14:23 GMT
It all boils down to respect and decency towards other people really... Quite, right, H, it's a simple matter of etiquette. And bad etiquette, though upsetting, (and I do sometimes feel for people who are 'mucked about') is rightly or wrongly not looked on as a crime and usually escapes punishment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 11:27:36 GMT
Great post Glenn, and a very good point that the Plate represents different things to different people. And having a contingency arrangement in place for a future "bare-bones" Plate competition would be a positive move. 8-)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 11:32:46 GMT
Whilst people like myself should leave these matters for all the great and the good to work through in your long and numerous posts (or should I say thorough and responsive).
I would, however, urge you to try to keep perspective at the centre (if that is not an unacceptable pun) of your thoughts.
It will always be the case that some players are extremely passionate about the game. They are committed. They are engaged in what goes on. They want to be a stakeholder in the future of the game. If you are one of these people I suspect it can be trying at times to remember that there are others that are far less passionate, far less involved and that would be quite happy to 'take or leave' it.
It is worth remembering, before appearing a little too draconian on matters that exercise the passionate, that those of a 'fair weather' disposition just might be encouraged to take the 'leave it' option.
That said, the passion makes great reading!
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ruby
Full Forum Member
Posts: 92
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Post by ruby on Apr 17, 2013 13:14:17 GMT
As one of the lesser,lesser players i expect to be playing in the plate .It can be frustrating waiting around endless hours for a game .but there seems to be a positive solution with a redraw of the plate which would hopfully shorten the day for everyone.Would it not be possible when entering the opens to opt out of the plate competion when entering if you so wish to so that the organisers have an idea of the numbers that if knoct out first game would still contest the plate competion. I will now leave the topic to the wordsmiths who generate the intrest in this thread with there differing views ,but believe have the best intrest in the game.
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Post by JB on Apr 17, 2013 15:23:47 GMT
Knowing before who would not enter the plate I don't think would help. You would still have to allocate times and tables in the plate for that match for whoever loses. The reason for the longish wait for the plate to start is you have to wait for everyone to play a game. If someone has their first match in round 2 a no show means that they could lose their match in the 3rd round and still be entitled to go in the plate. From an organisational point no shows are far more of a nightmare than people not playing in the plate competition
A thought for Glenn- how about at the Sussex Open you come and run a dummy open in real time. You could bring your programme and printer and sit at a desk and see how it works. You can do an initial draw and then a redraw for the plate etc. you could enter pretend scores and after everything's printed out we could then go through it thoroughly to see how it went. We could also see how much time is spent doing the draw and how tables are allocated etc.
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Apr 17, 2013 16:00:33 GMT
Ok everyone, think I have cracked the technical side. Attached is a random draw generator, with instructions inside. But bascially you just fill in the names and press a couple of buttons. Good thing about this is, that you press the button for the number of players you have entering and it fills in the brackets in the appropriate way, so you don't have to mess around with byes or anything like that. Please take a look and let me know what you think. It also fills in the next name when you enter the scores etc. It's just a test, but I wanted to show that at least some of the problems can be overcome. As for table allocations, I really have no ideas other than just to reserve 3 tables all day for the plate sacrifice table variety. Also thanks for your offer Jean. I'll have a think about it, but me sitting at the admin desk and getting trained up.... I'm fearful of what comes next! Attachments:
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Post by Ros on Apr 17, 2013 18:01:37 GMT
It all boils down to respect and decency towards other people really... Very well said! There seems to be a curious snobbery about the plate from some players, not just those posting on this thread. Some perceive it to not be a 'proper competition' and seem to see it as beneath them to show any interest in it whatsoever! ::) Funny though, it mostly isn't the 'top' players that have that attitude. ??? ...and apologies to Glenn, but if the plate is of no interest at a County Open, then becomes more attractive because it's at a more prestigious event (Jersey) - then that really does seem elitist. Some on here have said that the plate is for the 'lesser players' - are you really suggesting that Nigel (last week's plate winner) is a 'lesser player'? :o The tables are still the same tables, whether in the main or the plate. Surely you play as much against the table as the other player? Opposition can be just as tough too (depending on the draw) in the plate as the main. Nigel stayed for (and won) the plate and he achieved an unsung PB in the semi final: he ran the table out for just over 21k with a 'perfect' break, ie. every split to the 100, with no shots missed. I hope that nobody would belittle that achievement, just because it was in a plate semi and not in the main competition. I applaud Glenn's efforts to make a redraw of the plate a possibility. But if a redraw becomes a reality, I hope it wouldn't be the thin edge of the wedge, where all the top players would start to boycott the plate: then it really would become just a 'lesser player's' competition. I have rarely been so much in agreement with the Warrior - the ideal solution would be for everyone to stay and play the games! Perhaps this thread might convince some that their actions are seen as 'bad form' by many.
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Post by davejones on Apr 17, 2013 20:02:01 GMT
It was the second point here that made me actually start this thread after I witnessed something that I thought was simply unbelievable on Sunday.... ::) A player lost their opening match in one of the early series of games on the day and then stayed at the venue for the next 4 hours before leaving a couple of minutes before they were due to play their Plate game.... :o .... yes, they left as the games in the previous series in the main competition were just ending with their Plate match in the next series! :o >:( To be fair to that person, they had informed the organisers that they weren't going to play in the Plate, however the first that their opponent knew about it was when their opponent heard their name called out with the words "has a bye" after it.... I was talking to the person at the time and had offered to score the game for them! ::) You can perhaps understand that they were disappointed that their opponent had left without them knowing about it.... they had lost their first round game very heavily against one of the top players, had their Plate opponent walk out 5 minutes before they were due to play them and then had another 2 hour wait to play their next game which they lost before they even played a shot as their opponent went in with enough on their opening break.... ::) .... I was hardly surprised that as they left they said that they probably wouldn't bother to enter the competitions in future. >:( I know of at least one other player who had a similar experience a couple of years ago and they have not entered any of the competitions since then.... I wonder if other players may have been lost to the Open competitions as a result of things like this.... ::) ??? :-/ A few years ago I was in the same situation in Reading. The players and tables were read out and I was standing at the table ready to play and my opponent walked straight past the admin desk with his cue and walked out without saying a word to anyone! Beggars belief doesn't it...
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Post by BB Warrior on Apr 17, 2013 23:18:47 GMT
Firstly, just to let Chubbster know that it wasn't the person the person that he was thinking of here.... [One more quick thing I have to mention. With regards to this certain player that left 5 minutes before his plate game. If (and I apologise if I’m wrong) it’s the player who I believe it is, then I would henceforth prefer that people vent their anger at that situation to me. Although I completely respect other people’s views with regards to that situation, I would like to point out that not only did he withdraw from the plate almost as soon as he lost and was ready to go, I believe he stayed around mainly to help, support and encourage me in my games at my request. It was help that I greatly appreciated given the terrible form I’ve been having, and without him I and a few others would not be back playing at all. .... I know that person did stay for a fair length of time after he was knocked out and did leave fairly soon before he was due to play a Plate game, however I also know that he had told both the organisers and his opponent that he was leaving and I understand that he had also said that he would play the match if his opponent wanted him to. 8-) So Chubbster is certainly "in the clear" about this particular issue. Moving on to the points raised by Tommo.... Dave you are a word-twister extraordinaire ! Perhaps I should look at that as a form of apology.... :-/ ....maybe not, but at least it is a sort of back-handed compliment so I will settle for that! ;D ;D ;D Although I remain deeply puzzled as to how you reach this conclusion.... ??? And by referencing points deductions for league matches, you appear to be indulging in the same thing as that which you accused me of earlier - comparing apples with oranges ! ;D ;D :P .... when all I did was reply to one of your previous posts.... What I have never heard of in all the years I have been playing is any team or individual being punished for conceding a match and letting an opponent go through. Once that happens the lunatics really will have taken over the asylum. :-/ .... and give direct examples of "punishments" that have previously been given out to both Teams and Individuals in the past, which I am sure you know about! :P I would therefore suggest that my ("pear" of) apples are very nicely lined up.... while your grapes still appear to be a bit out of alignment and rather on the sour side! ::) ;D ;D ;D I am sure that Tommo will, after some "fruit"ful thought will come back with a "peach" of a reply.... or at the very least, send me a good raspberry! :o 8-) ;D But, all joking aside, this clearly is a subject that people have very different views on and I respect the fact that any player has the right to go home at any time (for any reason) during the course of a competition.... even though that does have an impact on their next opponent, which I believe is unfair. ::) In the past few years I have heard many players have a quiet grumble about the fact that their opponent has left an Open early, however it is not really a topic that has ever been discussed openly and certainly not in the detail that have appeared on this thread which has led to some very healthy discussion about it.... with Chubbster even offering a possible solution to it as well. 8-) So, if my decision to start the thread has made everybody more aware of the "problem" and either persuades a few people to stay and play their Plate games or provides us with an alternative that means that players do not find themselves sitting around for hours without an opponent for their next match then I will consider this discussion very worthwhile and would like to thank everybody involved for their honest and open points of view. 8-)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 23:29:01 GMT
I'll settle for that Dave - taking your post in the good-humoured nature in which it is intended. We both have the tendency to repeat points made earlier, and I have nothing further to add except to agree that some progress has been made if others have taken the baton and are running with it. 8-)
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Post by Chris_Sav on Apr 18, 2013 7:19:24 GMT
A few years ago I was in the same situation in Reading. The players and tables were read out and I was standing at the table ready to play and my opponent walked straight past the admin desk with his cue and walked out without saying a word to anyone! Beggars belief doesn't it... Yes I had a similar one after driving all the way to Reading for the AEBBA Singles finals. I needed to win the last match in my group with a very big score to qualify for the final, only to find my opponent had gone home which robbed me of the opportunity to, at least, try to qualify. Sav
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Mark James
Distinguished Member
Mark James
Posts: 595
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Post by Mark James on Apr 18, 2013 17:28:07 GMT
Although described by Sav as similar, in fact the Reading experiences of Dave Jones & himself (see preceding post) do differ in one very crucial respect.
Whereas the departure of his opponent effectively knocked Sav out of the tournament, such a fate does not befall any of the players receiving an unexpected bye in their 1st round plate games in a knockout event. Even if dissatisfied at the manner of it, they do at least get to progress to the next round.
I think there's a clear distinction to be drawn between these two scenarios.
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Post by The Chubbster™ on Apr 18, 2013 22:26:59 GMT
Been going back and forth as to whether to post again, and reluctantly I’ve decided I will. Just a few things I feel I have to address that Ros and some others have touched upon, but I certainly get the feeling are points that are held by quite a few people. Because of that I think I would like to better clarify my position and thoughts if you would bear with me a little.
Well I can’t speak for everyone, but what I can say is that I personally have never considered the plate not a proper competition, It’s just not THE competition that I paid my money and travelled to enter. I certainly would never consider anything beneath me, nor anyone for that matter.
This one hurts a little bit I must say, so I’ll explain myself a little better.
Sorry it seems this way, but I can assure you I am not elitist, and I would be mortified if anyone truly thought that of me. I hope all I’ve done for the game in the past and up until today my recent efforts proves that. I should have just been more honest and been frank about the only two 2 times in my 6-7 years actively playing (once in Oxford, and once in Sussex many years ago) that I have actually not played in the plate. On both occasions I was beholden on another person for a lift. I don’t drive, so transport is always a problem for me when travelling to different counties. I actually stay around to play the plate in part because I don't want to leave people up in the air and disrupt the days organisation if I can possibly help it.
Again, I can’t speak for anyone else other than myself. I certainly don’t think it’s a competition for lesser players per say (that was bad wording in my previous post) as there are always top quality players in it, and last weekend proved that very well, I think of it as a competition for players who get knocked out in the first round, which is exactly what happened to Nigel. That's not belittling his achivement, nor does it not mean the plate isn't a good competition or that's it's not worthy of winning. It's just that's not why I travel to an open, so it has less importance to me, that's all.
and another quote I’ve seen on this thread.
That would be an ideal solution, but we are having this discussion because that’s clearly not happening, and we’re trying to find a solution that accommodates the most people.
What I am upset about though is that when someone takes there time in this day and age to support a competition by paying the entrance fee, travelling (normally a considerable way) to the venue at there own expense, paying money to the venue on the day in the form of drinks and food, further supporting the competition with raffle tickets/prizes, that a person who does that but decides to leave when they are knocked for whatever reason..... To think of that as “Bad Form” or “disrespectful” I would humbly suggest to anyone that holds that opinion that you are being just a little bit unfair.
Don’t get me wrong, I respect your opinions, and indeed can understand them and I’ll go as far as to even sharing some of them, and I’ve done all I can to try and help remedy this situation, but again I stress to you, think of all that person has done to support the competition just by turning up alone. Would it have been better if they had just stayed at home?
I hope all of the above better clarifies my position as someone who believes there should be a plate (if there is not going to be a round robin or something like that to give people more games, that is as I’ve stated my preferred option), and believes they have a lot of value, but just not something that matters a huge deal to me. If that makes me elitist, or people are upset with me for my views, well then I am truly sorry, please believe me when I say I mean no offence or disrespect to anyone.
Anyway, I’m finished now. But I would ask that if this thread continues, that it be continued in the spirit and for the purpose it was started in, that is to find a possible solution that could better our game.
But me personally, I’m withdrawing from this topic now. I don;t think that this is an issue that will be resolved, because whoever makes any kind of change in the future is going to be appluded in some corners, but booed with equal force in other. I don't want that person to be me.
But good luck anyway, I hope I've helped somewhat. Feel free to use the coding in my spreadsheet if you like, it's not copyrighted...... yet ;D
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