Updates to Lincs: Gedney Hill Snookerette(4-Pin)

Another Wisbech pub seems to have acquired a table recently, probably now part of the Gedney Hill (Snookerette) League set-up:
whatpub.com/pubs/PET/174/swan-inn-parson-drove
SWAN INN, STATION ROAD, PARSON DROVE, WISBECH PE13 4HA

When investigating the existence of obscure locations throughout the UK where bar billiards is played, Lincolnshire has proved to be the most difficult challenge of all. The Lincolnshire Tourist Guide states the following:

According to the Pub Inn Guide, there are some 833 pubs in Lincolnshire! Many of the smaller rural pubs in relatively out-of-the-way places will be the centre of village life after business hours. You will, for example, find traditional games played in these that you wouldn’t normally see in the more commercial or chain city-based. These will range from the well-known games such as darts, skittles, dominoes, cards and bar billiards to, strange sounding, and often localised versions of Aunt Sally, Nine Men's Morris and Ringing the Bull.

However, further "googling" has brought very few of these to light !

Maybe the problem lies in the diversity in the game that exists in these regions: a swathe of countryside through from the Isle of Ely to The Wash and past Stamford into Lincolnshire seems to be 4-Pin territory, organised under the name of 'Snookerette' by the local-firm-sponsored Gedney Hill League. But Lincolnshire as a county has also competed in the normal game at National level, and I have been searching through old AEBBA minutes for any evidence of this and will provide extracts for this shortly.

May 19, 2015 14:33:20 GMT tommo III said:

Lincolnshire as a county has also competed in the normal game at National level, and I have been searching through old AEBBA minutes for any evidence of this and will provide extracts for this shortly.

here's what I've found:

4/9/1982 @ Fox & Hounds, Reading
Tony Gout (Lincs) reported that the Bourne League had increased from 5 teams to 21 in just 12 months;

16/1/1982 AGM @ Fox & Hounds, Reading
Lincolnshire adopted as members of the AEBBA: The Bourne & District BBL had been in existence for some 30 years and the players were prepared to travel to County events;

and.......

16/1/1982 AGM @ Fox & Hounds, Reading
A letter received from Charlie Wheeler notifying the existence of the new 5-team league in South Humberside. Awaiting further developments;

5/9/1981 @ Fox & Hounds, Reading
A letter received from Charlie Wheeler notifying plans for a new 8-team league in Scunthorpe and Crowle with plans to affiliate to AEBBA as South Humberside;

As far as I can make out, the long-established Bourne & Dist League would have performed at national level under the mantle of Lincolnshire, whereas Scunthorpe & Crowle/S.Humberside was not around for long enough to make the progression.

[squirerichard]

Some friends of mine spotted a Bar Billiards table upstairs in the lounge at The Priors Oven pub in Spalding, Lincolnshire.

www.facebook.com/Priorsovenspalding

May 26, 2015 17:11:14 GMT squirerichard said:

Some friends of mine spotted a Bar Billiards table upstairs in the lounge at The Priors Oven pub in Spalding, Lincolnshire.

PRIORS OVEN, 1 SHEEP MARKET, SPALDING, LINCS PE11 1BH
Will add to our list of venues above.
tommo

PS Here's a picture of the table, it's a Supreme:
www.flickr.com/photos/lakewalker/18829588740

Now known as Fenland Snookerette, apparently:

profileengine.com/groups/profile/424506480/fenland-snookerette-players

Nov 6, 2016 19:03:51 GMT taffy said:

Today we attempted to keep it going so after watching some midday rugby union we set off up into the Fens this time.
The Bell Inn, Murrow = recent landlord change, landlord wants food so he removes the table between league games.
a customer put me onto:
The Swan in Parson's Drove. So we went in:
The Swan removed the table 3 weeks ago.
The Butchers was closed (by now 4pm)
We went on to The Bridge Inn at Wisbech St. Mary and she removed the table a couple of years ago.
The Landlady called ahead to the 6 Ringers in Leverington - no reply (mid-afternoon now)
we went and checked the Black Bear in Walsoken, Wisbech but they were closed by 5pm.

I'll go back and try out the Butchers, the 6 Ringers and the Black Bear sometime.

A guy in the Bell Inn, Murrow said that there is a table in a social club to the North of Wisbech and a 'Steve' runs the league.

There you go!

Taffy

Swan, Wisbech and Bridge, Wisbech both removed from list of Fenland League venues - tommo

Recent evidence of another table in Lincolnshire:

www.lincolncamra.org.uk/2016/09/23/bar-billiards/

JOINERS ARMS - NON-LEAGUE - 4 VICTORIA STREET, LINCOLN LN1 1HU

Jan 18, 2017 11:49:59 GMT tommo III said:

Daveuk1 has sent me the following pic taken on his mobile:


It shows the (rather impressive) "ALFRED SAMS INTERLEAGUE RUNNERS-UP" TROPHY and is tucked away in the corner of a pub (not sure which one, Dave ?
Close up scrutiny of the engraved shields shows the following recipients:
2000 Sudbury
1999 Newmarket and Bury St Edmunds
1996 Marshland
1995 Newmarket
1993 South Holland
1992 Sudbury
1991 South Holland
1990 South Holland
1989 South Holland

Mention of 'Marshland' has prompted me to do some further research which I will log on the "Gedney Hill Snookerette" thread.

My first conclusion, rightly or wrongly, is that the shrinking violet now known as "Fenland Snookerette" has existed in previous guises as "South Holland", "Marshland", "Gedney Hill and District" - all snookerette, and all essentially covering the same area.

Check out this press cutting from the Marshland Snookerette era, the venues coincide with those listed at the beginning of this thread !



Finally a link to an interesting website here, though probably of limited use for bar billiards/snookerette research:
www.fenlandpubs.co.uk/intro.html

So, first bit of research:
This Facebook page references Marshland Snookerette forty or more years ago:
www.facebook.com/groups/195791690617067/permalink/579710795558486/

Click on the 10 comments and some names and even photos are given.
The League Secretary is given as Mrs Millie Green and the headquarters are quoted as being the Princess Victoria Inn at Walpole St Andrew.

An interesting article about the region, and the loss of its pubs including the Princess Victoria can be seen here:
www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/the-artful-codger-memories-of-old-pubs-1-5831034

This page shows pictures of the pub in its heyday (1986) as well as in 2002 when it became a private dwelling:
www.norfolkpubs.co.uk/norfolkw/walpole/walpoapv.htm

Quote from the Lynn News article:

I seem to remember the Wingland had a top-class snookerette team, a really popular game in the Fens before pool took over.

A trawl of the net for an old picture of the Wingland has so far proved fruitless, but it could well live on in parts following redevelopment of housing in Walpole Marsh on a small basis.

Here a map of the region might help.
www.theaa.com/walks/walpoles-in-the-marshes-420799

And an aerial view (no wonder King John's treasure, which went down somewhere in the region, has never been found !

www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2199714
The Woolpack Inn at Cross Keys suffered a sad fate: closed in 2009 for 'structural problems' ....

www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/starter-homes-plan-for-site-of-derelict-pub-in-walpole-cross-keys-1-5806337
......and now to be demolished to make way for housing.

The other Woolpack Inn mentioned in the clipping is at Terrington St John (nr Wisbech):
www.thewoolpackterringtonstjohn.co.uk/

Apparently still trading as a restaurant, but unlikely to have Snookerette.

So, what of the pubs mentioned on the press clipping thus ?


"Marshland Snookerette" teams
Bell at Murrow, Wisbech - still participating
Blacksmiths Arms, Emneth, Wisbech - reopened after a long closure, now a guest house
Freebridge Hotel, West Lynn - modernised, now a Brewers Fayre restaurant
Plough, Holbeach St Johns - still participating
Princess Victoria, Walpole St Andrew - now private dwelling *
Swan, Parson Drove, Wisbech - recent participants, but table now removed
Victory, Clenchwarton - still participating
Wingland, Walpole Marsh - demolished for housing
Woolpack, Cross Keys - demolished for housing
Woolpack, Terrington St John - trading as restaurant

* www.facebook.com/groups/195791690617067/permalink/579710795558486/ gives a past memory

Another Wisbech pub seems to have acquired a table recently, probably now part of the Fenland Snookerette set-up:

CLARKSON ARMS (formerly the Windmill) 121, LYNN ROAD, WISBECH PE13 3DG

Another venue in the region, claiming to have bar billiards:

(4 PIN NON-LEAGUE) CROWN AND WOOLPACK 7, HIGH STREET, LONG SUTTON, SPALDING LINCS PE12 9DB

[taffy]

yesterday Ally and I visited a table in North Norfolk right up on the coast line to the east of Hunstatnton and to the west of Wells-next-the-Sea. In the small village of Brancaster Staithe is The White Horse and it has a 4-pin table. sorry about the quality on this one.  



The table looks old, can't see a name on it but I'm sure someone will know what it it and its approximate age. It is a rented table with 'cue above the rest'. it had crap and debris all over the top but i daren't brush it down as people were eating.

the D was so soft that it had about 20 sunken 'holes' in it. there were three fat skittles and a thin one. the pockets were easy drop AS I KNEW THEM with 4 grooves not 4 proud points. there was no chalk. but someone has already set the mechanism to the 'new' £1.

met some rich southern people who decided the best way of asking us about the game was;
how do you play this stupid game then or do you need two toes and three fingers to work it out? the game was incredibly short at i'd say 8-10 minutes.



lovely old table....just neglected.

regards

Taffy

Thanks Taffy for your report on your visit to the White Horse.

Despite the imperfect state of the table, as far as non-league tables go it is probably one of the best-maintained ones in the country !

Remember that League tables are regularly maintained, usually with a dedicated person keeping a watchful eye over them, whether it be a table operator, the landlord or the team captain.

Non-league tables are normally prone to neglect - why should the venue bother with a re-cloth when needed, replacement cups when they sink, replacement of D's and spots or a regular brush and iron, when the yield in revenue is only likely to be the odd pound or two ?

At least in this instance someone has taken the trouble to convert it to the new pound coin - an indication that the table is there to stay.

Mar 5, 2018 9:41:05 GMT taffy said:

It is a rented table with 'cue above the rest'.

You may have just solved a mystery for us, Taffy: that of who serves the Fenland area with bar billiards table rentals.....
www.cueabovetherest.com/page5.php?view=thumbnailList&category=9

*Looks like they have been established a while and are able to offer a variety of tables for purchase or rental.



*Based in Ware, Hertfordshire and lay claim to the following:
"INCORPORATING ALFRED SAMS BAR BILLIARDS"
So could have taken over the remnants of the SAMS Brothers business originally based in Hoddesdon, Herts.

[taffy]

well as I said before Tommo, the man at the Black Bear in Wisbech says that someone comes around once/twice a year from somewhere in south wales for the rent. I can't recall what i said but I hope I said it to you and PM'd you in on it perhaps.

but you are getting nearer Tommo!

taffy

Slight difference there as the Black Bear are members of a league. So in season, the table would take a fiver a week in coins and bring in revenue over the bar from the teams on match night. This may justify paying a rental (reputedly £15 a week down here in Sussex) provided that the venue were able to keep a fair share of the table proceeds into the bargain.

The White Horse will be at a disadvantage if they are non-league - unless the table is in constant use - thus maintenance of the table is likely to be sporadic.

[taffy]

true but all the 2-3 tables I played on in the Gedney hill area also had 'cue above the rest' on them.

from what i can gather the money collector has to stay in a hotel or digs and cover a big area in a day mileage but not pubs wise. that gives you some kind of indicator I hope.

I used to empty space invader machines out on my trusty BMW R60/7 and I'd do about 14 a day on my motorbike but the guy in the car could only do about 10 and it was a 12-13 hour day. I have a friend at Tilney All Saints who is going to do a leading link fork for sidecarcross for me aso I may still see more gedney hill pubs soon!

Taffy

Mar 5, 2018 19:21:08 GMT taffy said:

true but all the 2-3 tables I played on in the Gedney hill area also had 'cue above the rest' on them.

proves my point:

Mar 5, 2018 12:01:05 GMT tommo III said:

You may have just solved a mystery for us, Taffy: that of who serves the Fenland area with bar billiards table rentals.....
www.cueabovetherest.com/page5.php?view=thumbnailList&category=9

No doubt bar billiards only represents part of their enterprise, it is nigh impossible to make a living out of the game. The major operator left in the country, down here in Sussex serving ten leagues, only keeps us going by partly subsidising out of the Pool side of his business.

The cloak of secrecy remains over the Fenland/Gedney Hill Snookerette league, but our member Little Mark put this snap up of a perpetual shield on display in the Bell:


Running it under the microscope, it appears to be for the league's Wooden Spoon and is engraved thus:

1994/5 Riverside
1995/6 Clippers
1996/7 Blacksmiths Arms
1997/8 Blacksmiths Arms
1998/9 Blacksmiths Arms
2001/2 Six Ringers B
2002/3 Black Bear C
2003/4 Bridge A
2004/5 Bell
2005/6 Bell
2006/7 Bell
2007/8 Bell
2008/9 The Buck
2010/11 Bell B
2011/12 Bell B

Would be interesting now to get a sight of the league winners' trophy - the holders being the Bell (Murrow) according to their website.

[taffy]

The Bell at Murrow had put the table 'out the back' when I spoke to them two years ago Tommo! I hope its chances have improved since!

Taffy

Yes, I recall your offering thus:

Nov 6, 2016 19:03:51 GMT taffy said:

The Bell Inn, Murrow = recent landlord change, landlord wants food so he removes the table between league games.
Taffy

But as you say, time moves on and with a bit of luck he's softened his stance.

[taffy]

went in the Black bear last night Tommo and saw some of the names in their summer league up on the board.
The Bell (could this be at murrow?)
The West Lynn
the Victory (West Lynn) makes me think two teams in one pub
The Black Bear
The Six Ringers

The Golf Club

there are only 4 teams in the summer league and KO etc but about 6/7 names were on other sheets of paper. didn'nt have th mobile with me otherwise would have photo'd it.
the Victory at Clenchwharton has now removed its table, I was there and asked.

Taffy

Thanks Taffy,
You've achieved by proxy exactly what I failed to do a fortnight ago !
Can now concentrate on visiting a few non-league ones in Essex a year from now.
Will also try to convince the Norwich guys that it would be a good idea to enter a team in the 2019 4 x 4.

I can now update the records at the beginning of this thread, and copy to Barbelman for action on the AEBBA Map.

tommo

List now updated.....

Jul 30, 2018 9:17:51 GMT taffy said:

the Victory (West Lynn) makes me think two teams in one pub

the Victory at Clenchwharton has now removed its table, I was there and asked.

Taffy

Am assuming the two teams are based at West Lynn Sports and Social Club, on the following bases:

• a Goggle search on "Victory (West Lynn)" only throws up the Clenchwharton one
• Victory had a recent change of landlord who happens to be the former chef, suggesting that the pub has gone 'foodie'

tommo

[taffy]

well there is just one bar there now and the lounge is fully kitted for meals. I can't throw any more light on the "victory (west lynn)" thing from here. I am tempted to say to you Tommo, make a call to the Black bear on Black bear Road Walsoken? they are top of the summer league infact if I rcall it is now over and they won 4 drew i lost 1.

this also means that the one at parsons drove has pulled out of the league because even in the winter league I didn't see "the Butcher's Arms".

cheers

Taffy

An update on the Dambusters, Scampton:

In April 2014 OldBlue wrote for PubsGalore:

I was a tad disappointed to see the bar billiards table on its side, replaced by a dining table and waiting to be put on eBay.

It seems that the table was indeed sold, but the bar billiards was obviously missed, as a recent WhatPub report shows this picture of a Supreme:

So, the status quo as far as our map is concerned.