Suffolk 4-Pin Open 2014

[daveuk1]

As a follow on from this years very successful 4-pin open organised by Carl up in Norwich we in Suffolk are happy to announce that we will be holding next years tournament in Sudbury Suffolk on Saturday 22nd March 2014 at the Grover & Allen Public House

www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/home/pubs/grover-allen

We have made approaches to the AEBBA regarding Suffolk becoming an affiliated member but as yet this has not been sorted, mainly due to the fact that we play 4-pin and the AEBBA is all geared up around 3-pin. we sincerely hope this will all be resolved in the VERY near future.

At this moment in time we are trying to gauge the amount of interest there will be from all you three pinners and we would welcome it if you can give us your thoughts by posting some replies to this thread.

I am sure that between Chris, Luke and myself we can find answers to any questions that you may have.

please note that we will be playing entirely to the rules as played in the Sudbury and District Bar Billiards league and as shown below

Thanks in advance

Dave



In all matches, a coin shall be tossed to determine the order of play. The away player to call.

To start the game, place the red ball on the spot above the 'D' and play a white ball from the centre of the 'D'. The centre of the 'D' should be marked with a spot. Thereafter, with the exception of further break shots, and the last ball, the cue ball may be played from any position within the confines of the 'D'.
All strokes throughout the game must be played from the 'D'.

The player must not play the cue ball directly into a hole. The cue ball must first strike another ball to become a scoring shot.

When the red ball is sunk, the score of that ball is doubled. The red ball must then be played from the 'D'.

When all balls are in play, and none left in the tray, the ball nearest to the baulk line is returned and played from the 'D' to continue the game. If two or more balls are equidistant from the baulk line the ball nearest to the centre should be returned to continue play as it is "nearest to the D".

When no balls are left in play, the red and white balls are positioned as for the start of the game.

When a ball returns to the baulk area, that ball is removed to the tray.

If a peg is knocked over by a ball and cannot be replaced because of obstruction by a ball, that ball shall be removed to the tray. The peg must be replaced to its correct position.

If a peg is knocked from its correct position without falling over, it shall remain in that position until the player has concluded his/her break. It will then be replaced correctly. If the ball is touching the peg, and the peg has not been removed from its correct position, that ball shall remain in play, and NOT be removed from the table.

If a ball and peg are wedged in a hole together, the peg is to be removed first and the ball allowed to drop down the hole and not returned to the tray even after the gate has dropped.

Each player continues until a non-scoring shot is played.

Once a player leaves the table their break is deemed over, should a ball fall down a hole after they have left the table this will not count towards their break or their opponents break unless their opponent has first struck the cue ball whether or not it strikes another ball.

Scores shall have the same value before and after the gate has dropped. The red ball will continue to score double.

The last ball on the table shall be played from the centre of the 'D', into any hole off any cushion. If the last ball is correctly played, but not holed, the player keeps the score of that break.

The player, or pair of players in doubles games, with the highest total score at the end of the game, will be deemed the winner/s. In the event of the scores being equal the game will be drawn and each team will be awarded half a game. (One point) each.

Foul Shots
The player looses his/her entire score if :-
The last ball is holed without striking a cushion.
The player causes the peg covering the 200 hole to be knocked over.

The player looses the score of that break if :-
The cue ball fails to strike another ball.
Any ball returns to the baulk. (The 'D' counts as baulk).
The same break shot is played more than three times in succession.
The player causes any peg, other than that covering the '200' hole, to be knocked over.
The player fails to play the red ball when it is available.
Any ball leaves the table, or strikes the backboard, even if that ball returns to the normal play area.
Any ball is played other than from the 'D'.
The player causes any ball to move other than a shot played correctly from the 'D'.
If a break shot or final ball is not played from the centre of the 'D'.

If a combination of foul shots occur, then, regardless of sequence of events, the player shall suffer the greater penalty.

[milko]

It looks a nice venue but I'm very surprised that Wetherspoon's are allowing one of their pubs to be taken over for a Bar Billiards tournament!

milko

The following would like to enter, please:

Clive Thompson
Margo Thompson

[daveuk1]

well we are not taking over all the pub, just around 1/4 of it, but it is still a very large area, plenty of room for 8 Bar Billiard tables with lots of room to spare for some tables and chairs.

Wetherspoon is like any other business I guess, they just see the publicity they will get from this event plus the pounds going through their tills plus they do like to support local events and remember they have everything we need there in the venue, cheap drinks, soft drinks, tea, coffee, etc and a vast menu for food all available all day and lots of toilets so no need to queue for that quick pee before a game . If you do get fed up there's plenty to do in Sudbury, the Grover & Allen is in the Centre of town, our 2 bar billiards pubs are both about a 5 min walk away and the town has plenty of shops (mostly estate agents, travel agents, charity shops or hairdressers) museums and Saturday is our market day so you can pick up some of the famous tractor boys fruit and veg and basically everything is within 5 minutes walk. oh and we have FREE parking about one minutes walk from the venue

The area we are using is away from the main bar/serving area and is slightly raised meaning access to the area is by about 5 stairs or a disabled type ramp at the other end, this makes it ideal as anyone in the pub can watch what's going on without getting in our way

[daveuk1]

Aug 17, 2013 13:02:01 GMT tommo III said:

The following would like to enter, please:

Clive Thompson
Margo Thompson

Thanks Clive. I will make sure your names are on our lists and as soon as the entry forms are out send you a copy. are you out to make a weekend of it? I think you mentioned about staying over the boarder in Essex near Clacton, we do have lots of hotels and B&B's in Sudbury plus the Bay Horse have some nice rooms

Not sure what we're doing yet, Dave, we might hole out for the weekend and explore the Suffolk and Essex coasts, or we might just go up for the day. I did Baldock and back a couple of Thursdays ago for my cousin's funeral and Sudbury is on more or less the same latitude.

Meanwhile I have added the venue to the map on the AEBBA website and have already had a trawl around the town on Streetview. The North Street Tavern is next door but badly marked on the map ! Also I couldn't see the Domino's Pizza that's supposed to be opposite - that will be a matter of concern for the Eastbourne lads ! Where exactly is the free parking ?

[daveuk1]

Domino's is indeed oppisite the Grover, it is where you can see P&C Services, If you look to the right of there you will see argos and a road leading down the side, that is the entrance to one of our free car parks. Due to our stupid council rules you need to get a ticket from one of the ticket machines, the ticket is free and gives you 3 hours parking, but after 12 noon on a Saturday you don't need a ticket so you can arrive at 9 and park all day with the one ticket. There is also another free car park at the back of the Grover about 100mtrs past the pub on the RH side in Girling Street

[gandalf the untidy]

Hi Daveuk1

Looks like there are at least 4 from Eastbourne who are expected to make the trip to Sudbury in March

regs cs

The 3 Maltshovel guys from Horsham are also probables, they have started going to all the Opens. Good drinkers, too!

[daveuk1]

Cheers Gandallf, how did your 4-pin league go?
Did you find the car park Tommo, its that big area beside argos where there are lots of cars parked up ;-)

We are trying to get our affiliation with AEBBA sorted out sooner rather than later, it has been ongoing for several weeks now, but regardless of that the open will still be going ahead

Aug 17, 2013 18:23:56 GMT daveuk1 said:

Did you find the car park Tommo, its that big area beside argos where there are lots of cars parked up ;-)

Got it ! Yes that's easy enough.
And on our way to the Norwich, finding the Bay Horse was straightforward, on the A131 heading north: So if we make for that again, it's just a case of then turning round and going back and left along the one-way system.

Gandalf's (Eastbourne) league is still going, but his team entered ours (Crawley) and carried off the main spoils. We now have an inter-League challenge match (7-a-side) booked for the 28th Aug, after which we will be putting our mushrooms away until March !

[daveuk1]

Clive I quess you will drive up the crappy A12 to get to Sudbury so just stay on the one way system and you cant miss the venue unless you are going to stay in one of the Bay Horses rooms in which case its less tham a 5 min walk from there to the venue

[Chris C (R.I.P.)]

EAST ANGLIAN/SUFFOLK OPEN

Lets clarify a few points as the above may start to confuse people, we in Sudbury were asked to consider organising the 2014 East Anglian Open as we started making enquiries the issue of membership of AEBBA raised its ugly head. Therefore we formed the "Suffolk Bar Billiards Association" Chairman/Sec Chris Cass, Vice Chairman Dave Lillie, Treasurer Graham Rolfe and committee members.

Dave and myself are talking the same language but the decision whether it be called East Anglian or Suffolk Open will not be taken for at least 2 weeks and possibly more, of course we are continuing the organistion of the open in the meantime.

The reason for the indecision revolves entirely around our Application for membership Of AEBBA, we as a County wish to to organise the event under the umbrella of AEBBA as members, however we not wanting to antagonise anybody we felt as the 2013 East Anglian Open was sanctioned by AEBBA we should (without being members) rename our event the "Suffolk Open" thus eliminating standing on someone's toes, update to come soon.

This morning I rang Carls421, updating him on the current situation and we have reached an understanding, I'm confident SBBA will ratify our decision on 3rd September. The event, date and venue, will go ahead as reported by Dave, we are planning to issue Entry Forms (in downloadable form) by the end of September together with Tournament plans and rules.

The one decision out of our sphere of influence being our membership of AEBBA which we're hoping can be resolved quickly.

[Chris C (R.I.P.)]

BTW its encouraging to see the interest so far

[curtd]

Hi

I will be coming to try and defend my title, and will probably have a car full coming as well.

Just to let organisers no when talking about the name of the open......
The perpetual trophy has the following engraved on it :-

East Anglian 4-pin Bar Billiards Open Winners

Curt

[Chris C (R.I.P.)]

Hello Curt, yes we were aware of that and as defending champion as with Plate winner you both have automatic and free entry into 2014 competition.

[curtd]

Hi Chris

Wasn't aware of the free entry :)

Thanks

Curt

[gandalf the untidy]

Aug 17, 2013 18:23:56 GMT daveuk1 said:

Cheers Gandallf, how did your 4-pin league go?
Did you find the car park Tommo, its that big area beside argos where there are lots of cars parked up ;-)

We are trying to get our affiliation with AEBBA sorted out sooner rather than later, it has been ongoing for several weeks now, but regardless of that the open will still be going ahead

Hi Daveuk1

Eastbourne 4 pin is still in progress, last game is 27th Aug, still worth a look at our web site which has up to date results for the Eastbourne and Horsham summer 4 pin leagues


eastbournebarbilliards.webs.com/

Please be aware that our rules are slightly different to yours as our league is a singles competition based on aggregate scores over 2 games but there are some interesting stats.

Just popped upto the hook at Carlshalton to try the narrow table, looks like the favoured break would be red into and round either corner and back into the 50 ( or 200, not for the faint hearted and low percentage shot)leaving the white near the other 50 for another 50 opportunity on 2nd shot.

The Table at the Hook is in bad nick, takes old 2 shilling coins, the bar doesn't work well and the timer needs an overhaul, breaks accumulate slowly and plenty of nerve required to keep going.

regs cs

[daveuk1]

I'm sure I have read those rules of play somewhere else before :)

[Chris C (R.I.P.)]

Hi Curt, yes in fact that was agreed by Carl and passed on to us as a requirement, we have extended it to the Plate winner, when the entry forms are available you will both need to fill in and send to Del (purely for our info) but with no fee.

Chris

[curtd]

Aug 19, 2013 21:38:56 GMT Chris C (R.I.P.) said:

Hi Curt, yes in fact that was agreed by Carl and passed on to us as a requirement, we have extended it to the Plate winner, when the entry forms are available you will both need to fill in and send to Del (purely for our info) but with no fee.

Chris

Thanks Chris , I'll keep an eye out for the entry form

[gandalf the untidy]

Aug 19, 2013 19:41:55 GMT daveuk1 said:

I'm sure I have read those rules of play somewhere else before :)

yep we copied them from somewhere nearby, but we are thinking of changing them slightly which we in Eastbourne think will improve the experience of 4 pin

1 we feel the game would benefit from changing the must use the red rule to use any available ball,

reason to speed up the game by not having to wait for a ball to return to the tray

2 reverting back to red spot being halfway between 200 and rear of D rather than front of D

reason to be in line with other leagues

3 Having double break

reason in singles mateches its fairer

look forward to receiving your comments

[Chris C (R.I.P.)]

Hi gandalf,

Replying to your points 1) The red ball must always be "in play" at all times when available, otherwise why have a red ball? 2) Check Sudbury & District website "Table Rules" it clearly states "The spot for the red ball for the break shall be exactly halfway between the rim of the 200 hole closest to the baulk line, and the baulk line" as far as we are concerned its always been where you are suggesting. 3) Having only played 4 Pin League for 31 years I've never come across "a double break" and don't understand what you mean? and how does your suggestion make a fairer game?

Chris

[BB Warrior]

Aug 18, 2013 12:34:31 GMT Chris C (R.I.P.) said:

EAST ANGLIAN/SUFFOLK OPEN

Lets clarify a few points as the above may start to confuse people, we in Sudbury were asked to consider organising the 2014 East Anglian Open as we started making enquiries the issue of membership of AEBBA raised its ugly head. Therefore we formed the "Suffolk Bar Billiards Association" Chairman/Sec Chris Cass, Vice Chairman Dave Lillie, Treasurer Graham Rolfe and committee members.

Dave and myself are talking the same language but the decision whether it be called East Anglian or Suffolk Open will not be taken for at least 2 weeks and possibly more, of course we are continuing the organistion of the open in the meantime.

The reason for the indecision revolves entirely around our Application for membership Of AEBBA, we as a County wish to to organise the event under the umbrella of AEBBA as members, however we not wanting to antagonise anybody we felt as the 2013 East Anglian Open was sanctioned by AEBBA we should (without being members) rename our event the "Suffolk Open" thus eliminating standing on someone's toes, update to come soon.

This morning I rang Carls421, updating him on the current situation and we have reached an understanding, I'm confident SBBA will ratify our decision on 3rd September. The event, date and venue, will go ahead as reported by Dave, we are planning to issue Entry Forms (in downloadable form) by the end of September together with Tournament plans and rules.

The one decision out of our sphere of influence being our membership of AEBBA which we're hoping can be resolved quickly.

Hi Chris,

Many thanks for the explanation of the current situation within Suffolk as far as the 4-pin Open is concerned for next year and I am glad that this event will be repeated after Norwich succesfully got this off the ground earlier this year.

My understanding of the current situation as far as AEBBA is concerned is that "East Anglia" were given one year of free affiliation to AEBBA at the AGM last year to enable Norwich to get the 4-pin Open up and running and to ensure that the AEBBA tables would be available and Ranking Points awarded to the players that took part in the Norwich Open this year, I would assume that future AEBBA Membership would be subject to an application for full AEBBA Membership being accepted and payment of affilation fees after the AEBBA AGM in December this year.

However, I would assume that Suffolk and Norfolk would probably want to retain their own individual identities as far as AEBBA Membership is concerned and clearly the Rules for 4-pin competitions would also need to be clarified and approved by AEBBA for future tournaments. As there would appear to be some discrepancies between the rules used in different 4-pin Leagues, these would need to be resolved prior to application for AEBBA Membership to ensure that the correct rules are adopted at the AGM this year.

I am aware that the subject of the rules for 4-pin "Open" Competitions has already been raised by at least one member of the AEBBA Committee to other Committee Members and that these would need to be added to the AEBBA Rules, however perhaps I could suggest that the two counties involved in running the $-pin Open should discuss this and come up with ONE SET OF RULES between them to use in these competitions in the future and those rules should then be submitted to the AEBBA to be approved at the AGM in December?

I must stress that these Rules DO NOT need to be the same as the rules that you play under in your own League, however we do need some form of consitancy for Open Tournaments that will include regular 3-pin players that are used to playing under the current AEBBA Rules for that format.

I note your comment regarding holding the event as the "Suffolk Open" without being members of AEBBA which is something that you could obviously do, however as a member of the AEBBA Ranking Committee, it would be my personal opinion that this would then mean that the competition should be outside of the AEBBA events and should therefore not qualify for Ranking Points or recognition by AEBBA next season.

Hopefully, this will not be the case and I am sure that an easy way to resolve this must be available with the appropriate communication between both counties and the AEBBA. I can certainly see no reason to object to both counties being accepted as members of AEBBA next season.

Good luck with the competition, I hope that it proves to be a great success.

Dave Ingram

[Chris C (R.I.P.)]

There's an old Tractor boy (Suffolk) saying "If it aint brook, why thee a fix n it bor" to the uninitiated 'If something is not broken, why try to fix it'

It's only a question of formality, Chris, a case of dotting a couple of i's maybe and crossing the odd t before, as Warrior says, affiliation of whichever body can be rubber-stamped.

Much seems to be being made of a very slight mismatch in rules - as far as I can see it's only over what happens with the last ball shot. Norwich and Sudbury should be capable of getting together and sorting this out by themselves, surely ?

Then it's a simple case of cut and paste to tag 4-Pin Rules on to the end of the 3-Pin ones as displayed on the AEBBA website.

[David.G]

Aug 20, 2013 19:07:48 GMT BB Warrior said:

Aug 18, 2013 12:34:31 GMT Chris C (R.I.P.) said:

EAST ANGLIAN/SUFFOLK OPEN

However, I would assume that Suffolk and Norfolk would probably want to retain their own individual identities as far as AEBBA Membership is concerned and clearly the Rules for 4-pin competitions would also need to be clarified and approved by AEBBA for future tournaments. As there would appear to be some discrepancies between the rules used in different 4-pin Leagues, these would need to be resolved prior to application for AEBBA Membership to ensure that the correct rules are adopted at the AGM this year.

I would like to suggest a meeting between myself, Carl and Dave to punch out a set of rules to put forward at this years AGM.

You can always invite me to lunch to butter me up if you think that will help

[BB Warrior]

Aug 20, 2013 19:53:53 GMT tommo III said:

It's only a question of formality, Chris, a case of dotting a couple of i's maybe and crossing the odd t before, as Warrior says, affiliation of whichever body can be rubber-stamped.

Much seems to be being made of a very slight mismatch in rules - as far as I can see it's only over what happens with the last ball shot. Norwich and Sudbury should be capable of getting together and sorting this out by themselves, surely ?

Then it's a simple case of cut and paste to tag 4-Pin Rules on to the end of the 3-Pin ones as displayed on the AEBBA website.

I agree entirely with this Tommo and that is exactly what I had suggested....

Aug 20, 2013 19:07:48 GMT BB Warrior said:

[I am aware that the subject of the rules for 4-pin "Open" Competitions has already been raised by at least one member of the AEBBA Committee to other Committee Members and that these would need to be added to the AEBBA Rules, however perhaps I could suggest that the two counties involved in running the 4-pin Open should discuss this and come up with ONE SET OF RULES between them to use in these competitions in the future and those rules should then be submitted to the AEBBA to be approved at the AGM in December?

It does however need to move forward correctly with all of the i's dotted and the t's all crossed to ensure that 4-pin competitions can take their rightful place in the AEBBA in future years.

[daveuk1]

Dave before I am forced to buy you a slice of bread and butter just to butter you up, i'm so glad you didn't mention beer, maybe you could set up a thread so we can talk about the difference between the Sudbury and Norwich rules, as after all it is just ONE difference and that's the last ball shot

[Chris C (R.I.P.)]

Warrior and AEBBASEC more to the point Dave and Dave i believe

I must apologise for the delay in replying, even though I was logged on I had pop out for a couple of hours.

I take on you comments regarding Norfolk and Suffolk "talking the same language" ie common rules for "East Anglian Open" and future 4 Pin Tournaments, I'm in contact with Carl and will ring him tomorrow.

Yes, daveuk1 is our AEBBA liaison, however I'm retired and generally have no restraints so if its all right by Dave I'd be more than willing to host a lunch between Tommo, Carl and self, come to that including Warrior and daveuk1.

I really don't want to go into great detail here but I know Dave and myself are disappointed that it appears no decision will be made until your AGM in December, that puts constraints on us Re. organising our tournament, but perhaps if as suggested we meet soon we can resolve our differences. Name the day.

Regards Chris