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Post by gandalf the untidy on Aug 20, 2013 23:44:06 GMT
Hi gandalf, Replying to your points 1) The red ball must always be "in play" at all times when available, otherwise why have a red ball? 2) Check Sudbury & District website "Table Rules" it clearly states "The spot for the red ball for the break shall be exactly halfway between the rim of the 200 hole closest to the baulk line, and the baulk line" as far as we are concerned its always been where you are suggesting. 3) Having only played 4 Pin League for 31 years I've never come across "a double break" and don't understand what you mean? and how does your suggestion make a fairer game? Chris Hi Chris, glad to see a response from you, i suppose as its my first season down south in Eastbourne after playing 3 pin for 35 years ( i know i dont look old enough) but playing a new version of the game with new eyes and no preconceptions, we have had to learn a new approach to break building and believe rightly or wrongly that the 4 pin game can move quite slowly when awaiting the return of the red if rolling round some whippy pockets. Obviously in 3 pin any ball can be used exceping the break shot and the red is used thoughfully to maximise break building opportunities. So this could still be the case in 4 pin. being newbies we have no idea of the original reason for this rule, perhaps it has always been so, the questionfor us is "would the game benefit from this change" and all we would wish other leagues to do is discuss it,I have no axe to grind and have no intention of getting any backs up and hope that you would take this topic for discussion as intended the red spot position has been discussed before, it was bought about by noting the sudbury foul shot rule saying that the D is part of the bulk line and therefore we interpereted the red spot position with this in mind, we have decided that it is inappropriate to change this rule mid season and will be falling into line at next seasons summer 4 pin league. The double break basically give players in singles matches (we dont play team games in Eastbourne as we are only a small league) an equal opportunity with the break shot though as we are still learners at the moment, having the break seems a disadvantage, but as we get more proficient this should not be the case, probably the home team has such an advantage they should not have the break at all, but getting back to the main point, good players should be able to get well ahead of their opponent having the advantage of the break and allowing the opponent the same opportunity seems the way to go. So i hope this explains the way we in Eastbourne are thinking as newcommers to 4 pin anyway best regs cs
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 21, 2013 6:30:33 GMT
I really don't want to go into great detail here but I know Dave and myself are disappointed that it appears no decision will be made until your AGM in December, that puts constraints on us Re. organising our tournament, but perhaps if as suggested we meet soon we can resolve our differences. Name the day. Hi Chris, I am not entirely sure that I understand why you feel that constraints have been put on organising your tournament and that you have to wait until after the AEBBA AGM in December to arrange things? As "East Anglia" are currently affiliated members of AEBBA the competition has approval already, so it is simply a case of Suffolk and Norfolk deciding if they wish to apply separately for AEBBA Membership and then agreeing on a standard set of rules for 4-pin to be played under at the East Anglia Open in the future. Personally, I can see no reason that AEBBA would not accept you as members and approving the 4-pin rules are probably little more than a formality at the AGM if you have applied and been accepted for membership.... so it would seem to me that the ball is firmly in your court and that you just need to sort these things out with the Norwich League and make sure that you send in your applications for membership and the proposed rules in time for the AEBBA AGM. There will still be more than 3 months between the AEBBA AGM and the date of the proposed 4-pin Open next year, which is about the same amount of time that most of the other County 3-pin Opens normally give for entries to be submitted.... but there is nothing to prevent you from booking the venue, tables and sending out entry forms for the competition now. Looking at the other posts on this thread now, I must agree with the post made by DaveUK... Dave before I am forced to buy you a slice of bread and butter just to butter you up, i'm so glad you didn't mention beer, maybe you could set up a thread so we can talk about the difference between the Sudbury and Norwich rules, as after all it is just ONE difference and that's the last ball shot .... and would suggest that perhaps either this thread should be renamed as something like "AEBBA and 4-pin" and either put in this section or moved into the AEBBA section of the Forum, or maybe a new thread ONLY for information/entries etc for the Suffolk Open should be started as these discussions seem to have taken over this thread now. Perhaps a member of staff could oblige and move the relevant posts over....? Many thanks. Dave
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Post by daveuk1 on Aug 21, 2013 7:55:27 GMT
Before I reply I am happy to say I have now received a reply to Suffolk's application to join the AEBBA from Mr. Alder and while I won't bore you with the entire content I think this line sums it all up
"I really don't envisage any problems with Suffolk becoming Affiliated and suggest you continue with the event as if you already are."
thanks Dave
You have made some valid points there, we are indeed still enjoying our free one years associate membership along with Norwich, so looking at it from that point of view we could still call our open the East Of England,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Our concern was that although we have already applied as Suffolk to join the AEBBA we were, up until recently not getting much feed back, even in principle as to whether our application would be approved and we don't want to be left in the situation where we have advertised the event as being supported by AEBBA. Things have moved on now, but what we as Suffolk don't want to happen is that we get tied up with loads of rules and regs including regulations that state the sizes of tables etc. The Sudbury league is made up of many different makes, sizes of tables and that is for us what makes the game so much fun.
As far as starting a thread to discuss the rules of 4 pin, should it be one of us who instigates this or left to a AEBBA official?
I know I speak on behalf of a lot of the players in the Sudbury league when I say that any attempted change to our last ball rule will be frowned at and resisted.
As for Gandalfs comments about speeding up the game by using any available ball, again the rule saying the red ball must always be in play when available has stood for over 50 years, plus remember some players in our league are even older than me and putting a rocket under their backside wouldn't be able to speed them up, our league is friendly and we acknowledge that some players cant play any quicker when you have players who have age or disabilities against them it is not fair to expect them to race to the table. Waiting a second for the red also gives a player a bit if thinking time.
With regards to the double break that miffs me a little. Yes in 4 pin a player can start the game with a 3'000 plus break, but that isn't a regular occurrence and even assuming that player keeps his break there will still only be 2 balls in play before his opponent has his first shot, there are 9 holes on the table and if a player is good enough to reply to a 3'000 break he should be good enough to pot the balls in play and gain the break shot.
But again I am going off track here, I started this thread to see what sort of interest there was in our 4 pin open next year.
I did say we would try to answer any questions but we now seem to be focusing on things that are not too relevant to my OP, as said before we need to start a new thread regarding the rules of the 4 pin game
Dave
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Post by BB Warrior on Aug 21, 2013 10:11:32 GMT
Things have moved on now, but what we as Suffolk don't want to happen is that we get tied up with loads of rules and regs including regulations that state the sizes of tables etc. The Sudbury league is made up of many different makes, sizes of tables and that is for us what makes the game so much fun. As far as starting a thread to discuss the rules of 4 pin, should it be one of us who instigates this or left to a AEBBA official? Since it is likely that it will either be Suffolk or Norfolk that will be hosting the 4-pin Opens in future, it would seem logical for you to start the thread to discuss this. It would also seem sensible that you and Norwich should be the people that are actually writing the rules that the "4-pin Open" will be played under in future and would then just need to send those to the AEBBA in time for them to be approved at the AGM. IMHO, you would not necessarily need to use these Rules in either of your local Leagues if you chose not to do that, many 3-pin Leagues have their own rules for their won competitions and in the same way the Summer 4-pin Leagues that have started this year in Sussex have "variations" on the standard 4-pin rules as these suit their requirements better in the competitions that they have run this year, after all, it surely must be down to each local League to play the game in the way that they enjoy as that will encourage more people to play the game. But I do think that it is important to have a set of Rules for the 4-pin Open that are approved by AEBBA for any competition that would qualify for National Ranking Points as that would ensure both consistency for the competition in the future and would also mean that all the players would know the Rules before they enter. PS. Perhaps a kind member of staff could move the posts relating to 4-pin Rules to the new thread once that is started and leave this thread for information and entries for the actual competition? Many thanks, in anticipation.
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curtd
Distinguished Member
Posts: 616
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Post by curtd on Aug 21, 2013 10:13:01 GMT
Hi all
A question for Dave , Chris and Carl
I noticed at last years open that many of the scorers were tapping the balls down the holes when the balls were spinning around the edge of the hole before completely dropping on their own accord.
Is this something that happens in other leagues or just local to Norwich . To us 3 pin players that was a bit different to say the least :) And it may be something that needs to be spoken about ?
Curt
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Post by Chris C (R.I.P.) on Aug 21, 2013 11:02:27 GMT
Gandalf,
I've thought long and hard about your comments and in particular "double break" I'm assuming you're suggesting everytime a player starts his turn he starts with a break shot therefore either the table is cleared of all balls after a break or two balls are taken from the tray?
We run a friendly league but "It is a competitive sport/game" so who said anything about fairness?
We toss a coin for break and yes the starting player has the advantage, double when its the home player as he should know the table better.
As in any ball game the 1st stratergy is to gain possession 2nd to keep it 3rd to score as many points/goals as possible and 4th to make it as difficult as possible for your opponent to score, we may be friendly but we do draw the line at tieing our opponents feet together or wacking him with a cue (mind you I did play one season on crutches but managed). Its the same in bar billiards so I ask the question why would you want to give the advantage back to your opponent?
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Post by Chris C (R.I.P.) on Aug 21, 2013 11:11:47 GMT
Curt,
As far as Sudbury & District is concerned that practice is frowned upon in league games, the only time a marker would touch a ball in play being 1) If a ball is obstructing a pin/mushroom 2)The nearest ball to baulk needs to be returned for play.
Chris
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 12:34:00 GMT
We seem to be moving forward on this with some good momentum now which is good to see......
I would just say to Gandalf with the greatest respect, as he is a kindred spirit, that I think he and I ought to "butt out" of this discussion as the existence of the new 4-Pin summer leagues is only serving to confuse the issue.
The two East Anglian leagues are the ones who are organising the Open and affiliating to the AEBBA and have recognised a duty to standardise on the last ball rule.
Our leagues on the other hand are not affiliated either to Sussex or to the AEBBA, and as summer leagues have a similar "minor status" in the 4-Pin world to Gedney Hill, York and - at present - Wellingborough. We are free to follow the official rules to the letter - or apply our own interpretations to them, without fear of repercussions !
Unless Eastbourne have higher ambitions, I humbly suggest that they remain within the ambit of Sussex, and as Crawley's sister league work towards standardisation between ourselves.
A tasty morsel I can offer you is that Crawley have plans to host a (4-pin) "mini-Open", probably for Sussex and Surrey only in about 12 months' time. This will be at our venue round the corner just before it closes its doors for good. Four extra tables will be hired for the day and I have already works out a playing schedule for 30 players (first come first served). More about this later, but I stress, it's not an official Open, and will be run along similar lines to the (3-pin) 'Brewers Open' which was organised so successfully for a couple of years by Adam Bateup.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Aug 21, 2013 12:42:27 GMT
was thinking the same tommo, an unnecessary diversion of attention for our friends up north
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Post by Chris C (R.I.P.) on Aug 24, 2013 19:23:43 GMT
Update, please don't think the absence of comments means nothing is happening the current situation being I have spoken with Carl and made our opinion known, I think he and I agreed but he needed to clarify the proposals with his fellow members in Norwich and has promised to ring me. daveuk1 has drafted a set of rules (to be agreed) we will then post the Norwich/Suffolk proposals for scrutiny to AEBBA. Thank you tommo for your comment and yes some of the chat was starting to cloud the issue.
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Post by daveuk1 on Aug 27, 2013 10:19:26 GMT
Just to let you know our next meeting regarding the East Anglian 4-pin Open 2014 is next Tuesday. Things are still moving forward and after the meeting we will keep you updated.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 14:00:25 GMT
well we are on the look out for some extra mushrooms for the open next year, we dont care what colour they are us suffolk boys are easly pleased, hmmmmm may be we shouldn't have yellow and green ones though :-) Well I own five sets which I'll be willing to bring along. I can't promise there will be any blue to match the white, though.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Aug 31, 2013 17:05:00 GMT
well we are on the look out for some extra mushrooms for the open next year, we dont care what colour they are us suffolk boys are easly pleased, hmmmmm may be we shouldn't have yellow and green ones though :-) Well I own five sets which I'll be willing to bring along. I can't promise there will be any blue to match the white, though. We can bring 3 sets if required
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Post by daveuk1 on Aug 31, 2013 20:06:52 GMT
as part of the committee organising next years open I can tell you that we are all to aware that apart from table hire our biggest expense will be purchasing 8 sets of 4 mushrooms, around £280 so any help would be gratefully appreciated.
We could take the mushrooms from our 2 leagues tables in Sudbury if we are really desperate, but this would of course then mean that these two tables, each of which is less that a 5 minute walk from our open venue, would be unplayable on the day due to having no mushrooms.
The cheapest we have found sets of four mushrooms is around £35 per set, so it would be far better if we could get away with just purchasing a couple sets this year and then some more next year thus keeping our expenditure down. Suffolk are running this open as a non-profit making venture and we don't want to be left in a situation where we have to make a few hundred pounds on a raffle just to cover our costs, we would far prefer to be in the position where we can run a raffle and give all the proceeds to charity.
As far as the rules go, I have written up a new draft set of rules that we propose to use in all future 4-pin opens, these will be discussed at our meeting next Tuesday and then after any amendments deemed necessary they will be passed onto Carl for Norwich's agreement before we post them on here and forward them onto AEBBA. We will also be chatting about the format of the open and the best way to utilize 8 tables to give everyone the maximum amount of games possible without the tournament running on until stupid hours of the night, we feel that a 10-30 start and finishing around 9-30 at night is more than enough. although it would be nice to have your thoughts on this. i.e. whether you think this is too long, etc. remembering we will be holding the open on a Saturday so we are guessing most, if not everybody will be travelling down on the Saturday morning.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 20:36:21 GMT
Well I own five sets which I'll be willing to bring along. We can bring 3 sets if required Eight sets required, and Gandalf and I are offering to cover it with no charge for the rental ! So £280 saved........simples !
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Post by daveuk1 on Aug 31, 2013 23:26:00 GMT
hmmmm why is life NEVER so simple:-)
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Post by daveuk1 on Sept 1, 2013 11:26:10 GMT
Tommo and Gandalf thank you both very much for your kind offers, it certainly will be a great help and take the presuure off us as we wont need to raise the extra money:-)
I guess that means I owe you both a pint
It should be an interesting day seeing how your 4-pin style differs from ours
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 16:00:23 GMT
Don't forget the threat from north of the border !
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Post by daveuk1 on Sept 6, 2013 22:42:50 GMT
by north do you mean Norwich? If so I think we already know they seem to play the game the same way as us Suffolk mob do and that's with a pint in one hand :-D
After our meeting on Tuesday I can tell you that we now have a set of rules of play for 4-pin opens that has been agreed. We hope to have entry forms available on line by the end of this month and the closing date for entries will be the end of this year unless all the places have already been taken. Entry fee will be £10 per player and this is non refundable.
Happily we think we now have ways of covering all our expenses but we still intend to hold a raffle with all proceeds being donated to charity and therefore any donations of raffle prizes would be gratefully appreciated so start hunting through your garages.
I am sure Chris C will have plenty more things to add
Dave
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Sept 7, 2013 6:28:11 GMT
Hi Dave
We already have 5 from Eastbounre all ready to go and look forward to downloading your application, those declaring a wish to visit Sudbury are
Phil Osborne Chris Haynes Gareth Dell Mike Reilly Colin Southouse
regs cs
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Post by daveuk1 on Sept 8, 2013 14:19:54 GMT
not sure if you meant to post this on here or the thread for this years open, but I geuss you canblame your nice new PC Suffolk Bar Billiards Association website (thanks to daveuk1 and his son) should be live hopefully sometime this week, the entry forms will be available downloadable from 1st October for 2014 East Anglian Open, my personal thanks for their sterling work during last few weeks to dave, Luke and Ross and I'm looking forward to seeing the response. Chris
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Post by daveuk1 on Sept 15, 2013 11:57:20 GMT
Suffolk Bar Billiards Rules Of Play.doc (30.5 KB) for some reason best known to the people lost in cyber space the web site still isn't live, despite the fact the name was purchased and registered a couple of weeks ago, so I have attached a set of rules that has now been agreed and will be those that we will use in next years open and any future 4-pin opens we hold. Entry forms will be available from the 1st October
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Post by daveuk1 on Sept 26, 2013 22:06:15 GMT
hmmmm no comments about the rules? I hope that's a good thing
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Post by daveuk1 on Oct 3, 2013 18:33:04 GMT
We have set up a mini web site about the open hereIt is in its early stages and we will be adding to it as and when we can
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 19:31:40 GMT
From what I've seen so far: Impressive !
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Post by Chris C (R.I.P.) on Oct 18, 2013 8:49:32 GMT
Hi Folks, my apologies for not being on here for a while, I'm afraid my Daughters wedding has taken priority but now back. I hope I'm not repeating anything daveuk1 has posted, we ie Suffolk Bar Billiard Association and Norwich are in total harmony regarding a set of Rules for 4 Pin Competitions and I understand Dave has posted a copy of such rules, our sponsorship for 2014 open is in place and we're now working on our charity raffle. A question has been raised as to why we've set a date for all entries to be in (31/12/2013) we obviously need time to complete the draw, complete the timetables and publish to all players, we believe 3 months is sufficient time for people interested to complete and send in their entries, however should more time be required then we will take that issue on board.
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Post by daveuk1 on Oct 23, 2013 19:13:59 GMT
Following the latest committee meeting of the Suffolk Bar Billiards Association I am happy to announce that the tournament sponsors for next years 4-pin East Anglian Open have been confirmed as SPECFLUE
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Post by chellster on Dec 29, 2013 15:48:04 GMT
Mal spier and Michelle Baden would like to enter. Form is in post. Thanks.
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Post by daveuk1 on Dec 29, 2013 16:42:59 GMT
Mal spier and Michelle Baden would like to enter. Form is in post. Thanks. Thanks for that, If you have put an email address on your entry form then Del will let you know as soon as he receives it, It might take a couple of more days before Del lets me know though, so dont panic if your names are not up on the list of entries received so far Dave
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Post by Chris on Dec 30, 2013 20:32:29 GMT
Being a simple person I have found it difficult to find the entries for this. Can you give me the thread??
Thanks Chris
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