England Bar Billiards Team vs England Cricket Team?

[The Chubbster™]

In my history research (of which I am now conducting on my own of course) I found this little gem on the Sussex Quiz site.

Which former Cricketer started with a 4k, break in an exhibition match against the England Bar Billiard side, on the eve of the first ever England v Jersey International? The answer was Mike Gatting.

Would anyone be able to confirm this and maybe enlighten me a bit more about the occasion please?

If it's not too much trouble of course

[milko]

Dec 20, 2013 12:17:09 GMT The Chubbster™ said:

In my history research (of which I am now conducting on my own of course) I found this little gem on the Sussex Quiz site.

Which former Cricketer started with a 4k, break in an exhibition match against the England Bar Billiard side, on the eve of the first ever England v Jersey International? The answer was Mike Gatting.

Would anyone be able to confirm this and maybe enlighten me a bit more about the occasion please?

If it's not too much trouble of course

I have the paper work somewhere but I think it was the friendly between Somerset and an England 11 in Castle Cary, Somerset in 1985 which we won 10-1.

I will try to find out more for you.

Lin & myself couldn't find anyone to get us breakfast in the morning, yet we had paid for it!

[milko]

Sorry Glenn, I think I know where the sheet is for that event but can't get to the draw because of the Christmas Tree!

The result in my book says the same as above except it was June 1984 + my scores of 20,000 & 14,000

Ian Botham was there so Lin says but I thought he couldn't make it in the end ?

I can't remember Mr Gatting getting a 4k brk but I do know that he drinks more than me!

[barbelman]

Dec 20, 2013 17:27:49 GMT milko said:

I can't remember Mr Gatting getting a 4k brk but I do know that he drinks more than me!

Blimey - now that IS an achievement.....    

[The Chubbster™]

Thanks for looking that up for me Milko, that's very helpful indeed.

So, in my little history o the game, I shall mention an exhibition match played against the Somerset cricket Team in 1984, which was won but England 10-1

Many thanks once again for your help, and have a great Christmas

[milko]

Dec 22, 2013 17:17:56 GMT The Chubbster™ said:

Thanks for looking that up for me Milko, that's very helpful indeed.

So, in my little history o the game, I shall mention an exhibition match played against the Somerset cricket Team in 1984, which was won but England 10-1

Many thanks once again for your help, and have a great Christmas

Don't be silly now, it wasn't a cricket team!

[The Chubbster™]

Ok Im confused, I thought you meant the Somerset Cricket Team.

Well, I shall be telling Mr Mariner that his info is a load of rubbish lol

As I understand it the match was Somerset (a bar billiards league and county in those days) v England.
The Somerset team happened to have Mr Gatting playing for them.

There have been other famous celebrities known to turn their hand to bar billiards in the past: Steve Davis being one.
There was also the famous newsreader Reginald Bosanquet who once visited what is now the Holbrook Club at Horsham.
Bill Maynard (aka Claude Greengrass in Heartbeat) played county for Leicestershire.
Sean Connery owned a table at his basement flat in London.
I also have a picture of Kate Humble standing next to a bar billiards table holding a pet, though I don't know if she has ever dabbled.

My favourite piece of research was about the Kinks pop band who used to frequent their local pub in North London for a game.

[The Chubbster™]

Very helpful, thank you.

You're welcome. I've searched out what I knew on the Kinks' bar billiards connection and came up with this:

Jun 17, 2007 at 10:49pm tommo said:

Extract from an article in July's edition of Uncut (rock magazine):

It's the winter of 1961, in the obscure north London neighbourhood of Fortis Green. The tempestuous stage career of Ray and dave Davies, the Kinks' creative core, has just begun in the Clissfold Arms pub. Directly opposite stands the family home, where they will write their greatest songs.
"My dad knew the guv'nor, and he got us regular gigs," Dave remembers, "They've still got the little flat stage at the back. I was 14, Ray 17. We would play duo instrumentals by Chet Atkins or the Ventures. Ray played "South" there - his first real tune, which became "Tired Of Waiting". The crowd was family and friends, and locals milling about. It was our test run."
The Kinks' association with the Clissfold continued well into their heyday. "Even when we had Number One records" says Dave, "We'd go in there and play bar billiards and shove ha'penny with dad's mates. A lot of our history's there. It became a venue for fans coming to London, taking pictures, like they would of Carnaby Street. They put up the Kinks Korner with memorabilia, and a little plaque."

So now you know. The Kinks played bar billiards in their formative years.

Aside from cricket, bar billiards also had a football connection:

1. Ralph Tarratt (father of Rod, and the person who introduced bar billiards to Sussex, the first table to be installed being at the Wheatsheaf, Cuckfield). Football League referee, once reffed an Arsenal game. Read his book "Knight of the Whistle" - it covers both sports.

2. Gerry Ryan - footballer with Brighton & Hove Albion. Later ran a pub in Mid Sussex area (= the Witch). I remember him attending a Sussex Finals Night.

3. Jack Froggatt - England winger who played for Portsmouth FC. Took over as landlord of the Green Man, Partridge Green and became a keen player. Showed us his inner sanctum one night with his 13 England Caps. Also showed us what a toll the game had taken on his legs (calves like jelly.)

[davejones]

Dec 23, 2013 16:20:16 GMT tommo III said:

You're welcome. I've searched out what I knew on the Kinks' bar billiards connection and came up with this:

Jun 17, 2007 at 10:49pm tommo said:

Extract from an article in July's edition of Uncut (rock magazine):

It's the winter of 1961, in the obscure north London neighbourhood of Fortis Green. The tempestuous stage career of Ray and dave Davies, the Kinks' creative core, has just begun in the Clissfold Arms pub. Directly opposite stands the family home, where they will write their greatest songs.
"My dad knew the guv'nor, and he got us regular gigs," Dave remembers, "They've still got the little flat stage at the back. I was 14, Ray 17. We would play duo instrumentals by Chet Atkins or the Ventures. Ray played "South" there - his first real tune, which became "Tired Of Waiting". The crowd was family and friends, and locals milling about. It was our test run."
The Kinks' association with the Clissfold continued well into their heyday. "Even when we had Number One records" says Dave, "We'd go in there and play bar billiards and shove ha'penny with dad's mates. A lot of our history's there. It became a venue for fans coming to London, taking pictures, like they would of Carnaby Street. They put up the Kinks Korner with memorabilia, and a little plaque."

So now you know. The Kinks played bar billiards in their formative years.

Aside from cricket, bar billiards also had a football connection:

1. Ralph Tarratt (father of Rod, and the person who introduced bar billiards to Sussex, the first table to be installed being at the Wheatsheaf, Cuckfield). Football League referee, once reffed an Arsenal game. Read his book "Knight of the Whistle" - it covers both sports.

2. Gerry Ryan - footballer with Brighton & Hove Albion. Later ran a pub in Mid Sussex area (= the Witch). I remember him attending a Sussex Finals Night.

3. Jack Froggatt - England winger who played for Portsmouth FC. Took over as landlord of the Green Man, Partridge Green and became a keen player. Showed us his inner sanctum one night with his 13 England Caps. Also showed us what a toll the game had taken on his legs (calves like jelly.)

The Worthing & District bar billiards league used to have their presentation nights at the Empire Club, Penhill Road, Lancing. The Brighton & Hove Albion players used to present the trophies. During the days of Gerry Ryan and Mark Lawrenson. they all enjoyed coming year after year.

[bigstew]

Dec 23, 2013 16:20:16 GMT tommo III said:

You're welcome. I've searched out what I knew on the Kinks' bar billiards connection and came up with this:

So now you know. The Kinks played bar billiards in their formative years.

Aside from cricket, bar billiards also had a football connection:

1. Ralph Tarratt (father of Rod, and the person who introduced bar billiards to Sussex, the first table to be installed being at the Wheatsheaf, Cuckfield). Football League referee, once reffed an Arsenal game. Read his book "Knight of the Whistle" - it covers both sports.

Stayed at the Wheatsheaf last week while working in Lindfield, but i'm sure no table exists there now. Will have to find other venues in the area!

Dec 24, 2013 10:08:35 GMT bigstew said:

Stayed at the Wheatsheaf last week while working in Lindfield, but i'm sure no table exists there now. Will have to find other venues in the area!

Hi BigStew,
Sadly Cuckfield is a barren area as regards bar billiards - as is Lindfield. To quote Mid Sussex website:

Involvement of Cuckfield teams in the Mid Sussex League.
Go back 30 years and the league Champions were the Rose and Crown, Cuckfield, featuring amongst others in the side, Tony Franks and Les Langridge.
Another very good Cuckfield team from the early 1980's were the White Harte A, also a base for the Interleague team led by Tim Peacock and Mike Bowring.
The Kings Head and the Wheatsheaf had bar billiards there for a few years, but after 1984 the sole pub representing the village for the next ten years were the pub on the corner, the Ship (Whitemans Green)
Last seasons for the Cuckfield teams:
Rose and Crown - 1979/80
White Harte B, White Harte A & Wheatsheaf - 1982/83
Kings Head B & Kings Head A - 1983/84
Ship B - 1990/91
Ship A - 1992/93

Involvement of Lindfield teams in the Mid Sussex League.
As is the case with Cuckfield, Lindfield has a lot of pubs for a smallish village, and most of them have staged bar billiards at one time or other - but sadly not any more.
The Standup and the Bent Arms both had mid-table teams in the 1970's, and the Bent Arms had a brief renaissance at the turn of the century when the Duncan family last played. The Standup (renamed the Linden Tree for a while) still have a team, but these days play in the Lewes League only.
Most successful Lindfield team was the Red Lion A who were Premier Runners-up in the season 1987/88 and later moved down the road to the White Horse (opposite the duckpond).
These were the last seasons for the various Lindfield teams:
Standup Inn - c. 1979
Lindfield Club B - 1986/87
Red Lion B & Red Lion A - 1990/91 (both transferred to White Horse)
White Horse B - 1993/94
White Horse A - 1994/95 (transferred to Golden Eagle)
Lindfield Club A - 1995/96
Bent Arms - 2000/01

Your best bet for a pub with a table is to venture into Burgess Hill and find the Brewers Arms (at the bottom end of the main street, on the right). The pub has a separate games room with not one but two tables !

[bigstew]

Dec 24, 2013 13:12:45 GMT tommo III said:

Dec 24, 2013 10:08:35 GMT bigstew said:

Stayed at the Wheatsheaf last week while working in Lindfield, but i'm sure no table exists there now. Will have to find other venues in the area!

Hi BigStew,
Sadly Cuckfield is a barren area as regards bar billiards - as is Lindfield. To quote Mid Sussex website:

Involvement of Cuckfield teams in the Mid Sussex League.
Go back 30 years and the league Champions were the Rose and Crown, Cuckfield, featuring amongst others in the side, Tony Franks and Les Langridge.
Another very good Cuckfield team from the early 1980's were the White Harte A, also a base for the Interleague team led by Tim Peacock and Mike Bowring.
The Kings Head and the Wheatsheaf had bar billiards there for a few years, but after 1984 the sole pub representing the village for the next ten years were the pub on the corner, the Ship (Whitemans Green)
Last seasons for the Cuckfield teams:
Rose and Crown - 1979/80
White Harte B, White Harte A & Wheatsheaf - 1982/83
Kings Head B & Kings Head A - 1983/84
Ship B - 1990/91
Ship A - 1992/93

Involvement of Lindfield teams in the Mid Sussex League.
As is the case with Cuckfield, Lindfield has a lot of pubs for a smallish village, and most of them have staged bar billiards at one time or other - but sadly not any more.
The Standup and the Bent Arms both had mid-table teams in the 1970's, and the Bent Arms had a brief renaissance at the turn of the century when the Duncan family last played. The Standup (renamed the Linden Tree for a while) still have a team, but these days play in the Lewes League only.
Most successful Lindfield team was the Red Lion A who were Premier Runners-up in the season 1987/88 and later moved down the road to the White Horse (opposite the duckpond).
These were the last seasons for the various Lindfield teams:
Standup Inn - c. 1979
Lindfield Club B - 1986/87
Red Lion B & Red Lion A - 1990/91 (both transferred to White Horse)
White Horse B - 1993/94
White Horse A - 1994/95 (transferred to Golden Eagle)
Lindfield Club A - 1995/96
Bent Arms - 2000/01

Your best bet for a pub with a table is to venture into Burgess Hill and find the Brewers Arms (at the bottom end of the main street, on the right). The pub has a separate games room with not one but two tables !

I do also work on a building site in Burgess Hill so may look to stay there in the future.

Hi Big Stew,
I have just been updating the Venues page on the Mid Sussex website with their two new venues this season, the Cock and the Hassocks:

www.mid-sussexbbl.co.uk/page3.html

Both are nice pubs and have their own websites: well worth a visit.

tommo

[milko]

I haven't found the individual scores for the match but I have found these newspaper reports that say England won 11-0 but I'm not so sure.

Milko has unearthed a vital archive there.
We now have it on good authority that it was the "East Somerset League": we didn't have that information before, and it differentiates from the more recent Bristol league based around Portishead in the west of the county.

It also seems that the Gatting/Botham connection was merely an ad hoc appearance.

What a shame that the England stars had to be so ruthless, though, with several of them playing the table out and not giving the opponent a single go ! No wonder the game didn't last too long out there.

[David.G]

Jan 4, 2014 9:06:08 GMT tommo III said:

Milko has unearthed a vital archive there.
We now have it on good authority that it was the "East Somerset League": we didn't have that information before, and it differentiates from the more recent Bristol league based around Portishead in the west of the county.

It also seems that the Gatting/Botham connection was merely an ad hoc appearance.

What a shame that the England stars had to be so ruthless, though, with several of them playing the table out and not giving the opponent a single go ! No wonder the game didn't last too long out there.

It say's in the report that bar billiards was 50 years old, so that means in 2014 bar billiards in the UK will be 80 years old.

Now that's something worth celebrating