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Post by Chris_Sav on Sept 2, 2014 11:59:45 GMT
I'll start the topic off.
The game is slowly dying why??
Pubs shutting? Old man's game so youngsters not interested? Poor publicity? Too complicated rules? The smoking ban in pubs? Tesco's beer prices?
What do you think? PLEASE DO NOT RUBBISH ANY REPLIES!!!
Sav
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Post by BB Warrior on Sept 2, 2014 17:24:45 GMT
Poor publicity? Surely no publicity (apart from this Forum) is closer to the truth. Pubs shutting? Yes, many venues have closed but I think a bigger problem is lack of tables in the pubs that remain. Recently 2 pubs that did not have tables were more than happy to have these installed by the players that owned them. I often mention Bar Billiards to people that I meet through work, nearly all of them say "Is that game still played? I used to play that game 10/20/30 years ago but you don't see any tables in pubs now". Perhaps if we had more tables we would find more venues and that would encourage more people to play the game? Old man's game so youngsters not interested now? I would simply repeat what I said above.... if tables were in pubs, more youngsters would play. For the amount of playing time you get, bar billiards is much better value for money than pool will ever be. Perhaps the biggest problem with getting youngsters to play is to overcome the problem of boredom while waiting for their turn.... a game of pool is over in a couple of minutes, darts you only have to wait for your opponent to throw 3 darts and it is your turn.... maybe we should think of a shortened form of the game to make it more exciting, we have all seen how popular 20/20 cricket has become in the last few years?
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Post by joefoxon on Sept 14, 2014 21:01:24 GMT
I've managed to get a few people from uni joining in for our team in York's league, and they always enjoy it, and they actually say the opposite of what BB Warrior said, that other players seem to get about the same table time as you get. I'm always hearing about students playing on the table but having no idea that there's a team or even a league, so publicity seems to be the problem, because most people will have a go simply out of intrigue.
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Post by Colemanator on Sept 15, 2014 9:31:28 GMT
Pool still costa 50p per game BB costs a quid in most places.
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Post by syorksbilliards on Sept 15, 2014 11:33:23 GMT
from a sheffield view my team cross scythes is average age of 29 although pubs are closing the traditional/real ale pub has made a real come back and bar billiards fits hand in hand with this style of venue i do agree on table availability being poor but Yorkshire added 10 tables in to pubs this year but people still dont have full awareness of the game pubs will take tables that's been proved but we need some publicity
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Post by bobhall on Sept 15, 2014 12:08:15 GMT
We can survive for aslong as we keep drumming up business and keep pubs involved get them to show an interest As we'll if a landlord doesn't care then the table will soon go. Once the game is learned its a great game you can make it interesting for newbies with handicap system also play 31's so they get used to shots angles and also if they beat you you see a huge smile on there face
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Post by milko on Sept 15, 2014 13:10:08 GMT
Pool still costa 50p per game BB costs a quid in most places. It was a £1 where I played last week!
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Post by Chris_Sav on Sept 15, 2014 13:47:42 GMT
Well done guys, keep the ideas coming, I have make a presentation submission to the conference that I have to put together.
Sav
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joiner88
Full Forum Member
Hiding from the wife in my workshop
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Post by joiner88 on Sept 15, 2014 16:51:22 GMT
We can survive for aslong as we keep drumming up business and keep pubs involved get them to show an interest As we'll if a landlord doesn't care then the table will soon go. Once the game is learned its a great game you can make it interesting for newbies with handicap system also play 31's so they get used to shots angles and also if they beat you you see a huge smile on there face As someone who is trying to build interest in the game in my local. Can you explain the "31's" (through Pm if you like), also is there a formula for working out handicaps. We have some Improving players, and it would be good to introduce some way to improve competition. We also have a lot of younger regulars who are put off because they struggle to make big breaks, and tend to lose interest fairly quickly. (Xbox generation) Thanks Brian
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ruby
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Post by ruby on Sept 15, 2014 18:09:41 GMT
I think one of the biggest problems is acsessabilty when you find a table in a pub or club its usually its got a cover on and pegs are behind bar so no incentive for new players from trying the game it does not seem to be the same for pool
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Post by Chris on Sept 15, 2014 19:08:53 GMT
Are there now two threads on the topic for the conference?
Thanks Chris x
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 19:32:34 GMT
31's.........fun version involving a stack of players not taking it too seriously. Everyone puts a pound on the table at the beginning of the competition to pay for the extended session. Then all start by putting 20p in the 'kitty' and players in turn try to score exactly 310 points. There are various fines for the normal fouls at well as for going over 310 or failing to get 100. Also (discretionary) failing to score when it's your turn to do so or even not being ready at the table to play when it's your go. The kitty is won whenever someone makes the 310 and no-one else does before his/her turn comes round again.
Sounds easy, eh ? But more difficult to do than one might think.....both frustrating and entertaining at the same time !
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 19:33:42 GMT
Are there now two threads on the topic for the conference? Thanks Chris x That's a conservative estimate, Chris !
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 19:41:16 GMT
I think one of the biggest problems is acsessabilty when you find a table in a pub or club its usually its got a cover on and pegs are behind bar so no incentive for new players from trying the game it does not seem to be the same for pool That's a very valid point, but there's usually a reason for it, especially in pubs where ankle biters are allowed: over the years on my home patch I've known pegs and balls to be nicked, drink to be spilled on the cloth, diamond markers to be chipped away at, and most annoying of the lot, initials to be carved in the wood: Xbox Generation indeed, and needs must.
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Post by craig mace on Sept 17, 2014 14:03:55 GMT
the biggest problem is advertising and not making it to daunting e.g. I know alot of youngsters in berinsfield that say its a brilliant game but don't want to turn up and have the table played out against um with no go.
I was wandering the other day is it work putting the word champs and Bournemouth pairs on TV which might help with advertisement of the game.
has the aebba ever thought about taking the snooker approach and picking random counties all over the country and advertising a tournament instead of just using the counties that are big this could become 2 day events with saturday being a qualifying day and the Sunday the actual tournament just a thought (yes i know money will be the biggest problem).
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Post by syorksbilliards on Sept 17, 2014 15:58:35 GMT
that would be a great idea: to involve the smaller leagues/teams (like Nottingham and Sheffield) even holding under 21's and/or under 30's comps around the UK? If you involve snooker clubs (where youngsters can play) could help get youngsters into the sport. In our league, Lennons Pool and Snooker Club have a lot of involvement with youngsters and cue sports. Only a few weeks ago, at a BB friendly match with us, they had a 10 and 13 year old on the team and they love bar billiards! If the aebba could bring it to the rest of the UK then that can only be a good thing?!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 16:49:39 GMT
Yes the game is slowly dying, there is insufficient publicity/exposure and lack of TV coverage has often been bemoaned before. Every now and again a new crop of youngsters come through, but they're not exactly coming through in droves. The average age of players must be nearer to 55 than to, say, 35 which would be healthier for the game.
The last National exposure the game had was 30 years ago (Yorkshire Television's Indoor League). A couple of years ago there was a tenuous promise to involve our game in a programme about pubsport challenges featuring Rory McGrath, and it was going to take place at the Berks Open with K.T. taking on a celebrity challenge....but it all fell through.
The AEBBA for reasons only known to themselves shunned to appoint a publicity officer at the last AGM, and we could really do with a well-known celebrity to take the game to his/her heart and endorse it for us.
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joiner88
Full Forum Member
Hiding from the wife in my workshop
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Post by joiner88 on Sept 17, 2014 19:30:28 GMT
Thank you Bobhall and Tommo for your response re "31s". I will work on the lads on Saturday night to give it a go. Brian
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Post by Colemanator on Sept 17, 2014 21:47:43 GMT
and we could really do with a well-known celebrity to take the game to his/her heart and endorse it for us. I think Steve Davis could do that if asked.
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Post by syorksbilliards on Sept 21, 2014 8:08:53 GMT
So if say this was possible to bring opens all over the UK and the demand for our game grows could the aebba raise more money for this and buy up some tables and rent out to intrested party's as this is our biggest problem table availability is low people always say yes sounds good but how do we get a table? Could this work?
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Post by The Bullet on Sept 21, 2014 8:37:15 GMT
So if say this was possible to bring opens all over the UK and the demand for our game grows could the aebba raise more money for this and buy up some tables and rent out to intrested party's as this is our biggest problem table availability is low people always say yes sounds good but how do we get a table? Could this work? It would be good if something like this could happen, and the game start to grow. With regards to tables, the way the game is going (dying) in Guernsey there could be at least 16 tables available. I have two (three if you count the one I build) the league has at least 12 plus a there are a couple others privately owned. Well that's my Sunday morning moan out the way. See you in November. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 11:03:14 GMT
Well two views there from the opposite ends of the bar billiards world.
Table availability can be a problem, back in the last century there were four table operators in the UK (based in Kent, West Sussex, Ascot (Berks) and Darwen (Lancs). Of these, now only Tarratts remains, supplying traditional SAMS tables to West Sussex. Other tables are either owned by the pub landlords or by league syndicates.
Jersey and Guernsey are self-sufficient: Nigel Ryall (Jersey) or Bob Chapple who we've just heard from for Guernsey.
True, there are manufacturers of new tables around, and their agents, but the leagues favour the traditional merchandise (tables produced in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s) which are of superior quality. The original manufacturers (Jelkes & Sons, SAMS Bros, Atlas, Jeffries, Padmores etc) ceased to mass-produce and vanished after a series of mergers and takeovers.
A further problem is a logistic one, dictated by geographical considerations. The Opens played around the country tend to be no more than 2 to 3 hours' journey away for most (unless you are Chris Saville of course who lives near Dover). The active counties form a sort of arc around (but not including) London: Cambs, Northants, Bucks, Oxon, Berks, Hants, Surrey, Sussex, Kent, Suffolk, Norfolk. London would be accessible in a couple of hours, yes, but then you'd probably need a further two to actually reach your destination - hence no competitive bar billiards in London.
Guernsey and/or Jersey is a once-yearly treat for mainlanders in May and November respectively. Accordingly, to accommodate the new outpost of Yorkshire - a five hour journey ? - something really rare and special would have to be arranged.
The bottom line is that, out of all the bar billiards counties mentioned, the game is either on its uppers or in serious decline. For example, we have just lost the Eastbourne league in Sussex, they're struggling on with a series of friendlies being played at a single pub. So whilst rejoicing in new outposts and trying to offer them encouragement, just holding on to what we've got is sometimes a prime consideration.
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Post by syorksbilliards on Sept 28, 2014 9:12:14 GMT
i fully take on bored what tommo says and your right distance is a problem but if say Yorkshire wanted to join the aebba then we would have to make the 5 hour trip every time what would be good would be some sort of once a year in several different locations around the uk and each event is like a qualifying to the worlds or something like that if people are serious about saving the game then the game being available allover the mainland is a must and yes it is a real shame that we are still losing leagues we can dwell on this or maybe use this and say actually lets try and turn this around so we don't lose anymore it takes a few people in every city to take it by the horns and get out there pushing our game forward like Nottingham with only one table there they all play in one venue i would suggest splitting go talk to a pub landlord try get a new table in theirs two then just like me pop around to all real ale pubs then snooker halls they wont all say no i am not saying its easy and before the real ale come back i would have said we cant save it but people now look for traditional pubs and like the traditional feel so what better then a great British tradition like bar billiards
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Post by michaelshallcross on Oct 2, 2014 15:29:31 GMT
Until today I hadn't logged into the forum for a month or so, and I'm a bit alarmed to see the sudden outcrop of pessimistic threads that have sprung up in the meantime! Since BB Warrior mentioned on the 'strengths and weaknesses' thread that "somebody from AEBBA should be talking to the new Leagues in York to find out how they have managed to achieve so much in such a short space of time", I thought it might be worth me throwing in a few thoughts, as I originally set up the York league.
First of all, as others have mentioned, I think the real ale boom has been really integral to the success of recently set up leagues - it's no coincidence that York, Sheffield and Norwich are all lucky enough to have an unusually large number of pubs that make craft beer one of their main selling points. People who like decent beer also tend to appreciate traditional games and quirky and unique things in general, so naturally they go for bar billiards in a big way! The craft beer market also appeals to a relatively young demographic at the moment, so if you can tap into it you've got a sure-fire way of beating the problem of the 'old man's game' perception. In our league there's a pretty even distribution of ages in every team, from people in their early 20s to early 60s, and that's one of things that makes it fun. Obviously in towns where there's less of a well-connected real ale scene it's going to be a lot harder to get this kind of buzz going, but if you can identify which pubs in your area are independently run and/or focus on selling craft beer and promoting local breweries, you can focus your energy on persuading these places to get tables in and set up teams, rather than fruitlessly trying to convince bored managers of chain pubs to get involved.
Also, publicity is definitely crucial - we use facebook, twitter (which is particularly useful), and a regularly updated website to promote the league, as well as more old fashioned routes - from putting up recruitment posters in pubs, to getting articles published in the local newspaper, to more dramatic scoops like the landlord of the Fulford Arms wangling an interview on Radio 2! It's all about being imaginative and pooling ideas. Our most recent bright ideas include getting an article on bar billiards in the local CAMRA magazine, the Ouse Boozer, which is given away free in York pubs, and - more ambitiously - trying to set up a bar billiards trail as a tourist activity. The idea behind this is that we'll print a bunch of nice looking leaflets to leave out on the bar in our league venues, with a map showing how to follow a trail of all the relevant pubs in town, a space to stamp off each pub, and a prize of a few free pints for anyone who gets all the pubs stamped off (prizes sponsored collectively by the pubs involved). Whether this will take off or not is anyone's guess, but it's worth a try. The thing about this kind of publicity drive is that eventually it generates its own momentum. Once publicans see that BB is something that gets other pubs in the press they want to get involved too. That's how we've gone from a year or so of only having two teams (and sometimes getting a bit demoralised about lack of progress), to having potentially eight teams for the coming season - once the spark finally catches it's amazing how quickly it spreads. Obviously though, you do need to have at least a couple of people in the league who have a lot of time and energy to put into this kind of publicity drive.
Finally, I think it's also pretty important that our league is resolutely amateur. Virtually everyone who plays in our teams would probably be put off if they were playing against people who were able to rack up 10,000 points in every game. That's not to disparage skilled players, just to say that if you want to get the maximum number of people to join in there has to be a perception that it isn't just a game for a handful of elite specialists. Some of our players might struggle to get more than a couple of hundred in a game, but they still join in because they're made to feel welcome and they enjoy the social side of it. Not taking things too seriously is also important. My team has one maverick who will pull off a ridiculously impressive red into the 200 one minute and then shoot the cue ball off the table the next. I'll be sitting there with my head in my hands, but at least it keeps thing interesting! Also, I'm not sure if the York league is unique in this, but we always play doubles games - on each match night we rotate the squad to have two representatives of each pub playing in each game. I think this format makes the games feel more communal and takes away the possibility of individual bar billiards supremos hogging the spotlight.
Anyway, I hope all this might be of some use. It's really worrying to see you guys, who keep the whole game afloat, getting demoralised. You do an absolutely fantastic job, and our league has learned loads from reading your advice on this forum, so please don't get downhearted! If we all keep sharing ideas to keep the game fresh there's absolutely no reason why it should lapse into a steady decline. The title of this thread shouldn't be 'how long can we survive?', it should be 'how can we turn things around?'. Chin up!
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 9, 2014 10:31:17 GMT
Some good thoughts through this thread. The biggest hurdle in our sport to getting new interest appears to be traditional tables in those areas where the game is already known. With all due respect the new areas will not have been in a position to compare the modern MDF Supreme tables with traditionally made hardwood tables.
This even goes down to the rings in the holes which just aren't made like they used to be. The cushion rubber has just gone out of production as well and I am looking at how to accommodate larger sized rubber on existing rails without changing the dimensions.
It will be interesting to see what comes up at the conference. The AEBBA AGM follows shortly after and it will probably be sensible to have a conference report/action item on the agenda.
It also appears from comments that it is more difficult to get new players in existing leagues than in new areas devoid of superstars. I have always thought that many leagues are run by the top players for the benefit of the top players who just want cannon fodder to turn up and admire their ability to compile enormous breaks and buy them a beer for doing it. My own league plays singles/limited break doubles in league matches and triangles in cup games, losers do not buy winners a drink. This has slowed our contraction but, critically, has NOT stopped it. We tried an open evening in a pub hall, publicised in the local paper. not one person turned up! We own our own tables and do not charge rental to pubs, just profit share and yet we still cannot find venues amongst the food halls that were pubs in our area.
The only new move I have seen has again come from one of the new areas, Suffolk, I thought running the East Anglian Open in a Witherspoons Pub was a brilliant idea instead of having it hidden away in some backstreet hall/club. There was much public exposure and interest over the weekend. That was also played under the four pin version, so large 'watching paint dry' breaks were few and far between.
We have to go to the public, they will not come to us!
Sav
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