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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 4, 2014 22:23:59 GMT
NOTE: This thread was a part of the preparation for the EU conference which is to be found in the AEBBA/Archives section. It has been moved here as the topic has much wider importance than to be archived with the conference material, where a copy exists.
Who can tell me what??
I have always adhered to the David Gill account of seeing Billiard Russe in Belgium and getting Jelkes of London to copy it in 1934.
But where does snookerette fit into the equation? There was a company called Snookerette Ltd who were done for unlicenced public billiards in 1936
discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1258299
They produced the narrow version of bar billiards tables (AKA narrow Sams). These were the same dimensions as the Belgian version which predates Bar Billiards as modern wide table were a copy of it. Googling suggests that Snookerette tables pre-date the tables we are familiar with.
There is much confusion with Snookerette also being referred to as the pin game (31's) played on a snooker/pool table with pins corresponding to the snooker ball values, also carom.
Billard Russe is certainly a century or more old, it appears possible that Snookerette may be of a similar age
www.instappraisal.com/appraisal/snookerette-ltd-english-bar-billiards-table-1890
It existed in enclaves in East Anglia (still does in the Gedney Hill League).
I can find no info on the origins of Billard Russe or Snookerette.
Can anyone throw any light on this? Sounds like one for Clive!
Sav |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 23:41:06 GMT
Details on the early history are indeed sketchy, and I have recently tried to pull the strands together and published what we know as certain on "Timeline Part 1". Main source is James Masters website AND Ralph Tarratt's book Knight of the Whistle.
Certain interesting aspects have come to light during the research: for instance the first known score of 20k was made on 3rd Jan 1961 by 20-y-o Brian Hudson of Chatham (22,100 in 19 minutes).
Simon Tinto, in his "History of the Redhill League 1948 - 1998" publication poses the question "How would the best players today have coped with imparting spin on the heavy ivory balls of the past as compared to the lighter cellulites of the present ? And judging from the scores that were common in the early days, it seems that bar billiards - even for the best players - was a game of gentle potting rather than the aggressive modern in-off style."
In Knight of the Whistle Ralph endorses the claim that David Gill introduced the game here in 1930, after he saw it being played in Belgium, where it was popular in tea and coffee houses, and was impressed by its potential to catch on in public houses. Breweries caught on quickly to the idea and were willing to pump money into the game's growth, sponsoring league trophies.
Yes the Snookerette situation emanated from a legal wrangle over who would copyright the name 'bar billiards' to trade under.
The final point is that the concept of potting for points emanates from bagatelle, which was around in the 18th century.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Oct 5, 2014 9:57:29 GMT
I've read the very interesting timeline but cannot say I can fully accept the premise over copyright infringement.
Communications in the 1930's were sparse compared with those of today with no social media for people of one area to find out what happens in another.
What I do know from experience is that French Billard Russe slates (no 200 hole) are identical to the early narrow tables pre-dating narrow Sams. The Billard Russe table I refurbished from France even had the 200 hole marked out though not drilled.
Sams only took out an English clock patent in 1950 presumably replacing the earlier Brevette clocks from France (another connection with France!)
worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19540519&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=GB&NR=709182A&KC=A&ND=4
My supposition is that Snookerette tables or other pre 1934 tables existed in East Anglia without the knowledge of our Kentish predecessor Mr Gill. There is evidence of early Padmore tables (suggested 1920's on Mercury Leisure site) that look decidedly French. If a supposed mistake was made in ordering a batch of slates it could well have been our wide tables that were wrong!!
I am now entirely unconvinced that Bar Billiards started in 1934 at the Rose & Crown at Elham in Kent, just Bar Billiards as we wide table three pinners like to think is the Holy Grail.
Why was the 200 hole added in copying Billard Russe?, possibly because some bright spark at Jelkes had seen snookerette tables in East Anglia?
Why did Sams make both versions of the table, narrow and wide? to me they can only have been copying both versions of the game and Sams came from Heretfordshire, midway between the two enclaves.
Sav |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 11:26:01 GMT
I am now entirely unconvinced that Bar Billiards started in 1934 at the Rose & Crown at Elham in Kent, just Bar Billiards as we wide table three pinners like to think is the Holy Grail. I'm now inclined to agree, but have an inkling that there were slightly smaller tables around pre-WW2 which were referred to as Russian Billiards. Probably without the clock and bar mechanism which is necessary for rental operation in public premises. My grandfather owned one and it had a heavy slate base and the family used to hide under it during the blitz raids. The house in New Malden eventually took a direct hit while no-one was at home ! Years later he bought a half-size snooker-cum dining table and I was taught 3-ball billiards by my grandmother ! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2014 18:17:01 GMT
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 20, 2014 8:47:54 GMT
Interestingly a table with a snookerette timer has appeared on Ebay, timer and table looks very early French as well, potentially supporting my earlier premise on Snookerette tables destroying the David Gill myth.
 
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 20:32:29 GMT
Further research reveals that the Automatic Billiard Corporation was formed in Chicago in the 1930s for wholesale manufacture of Snookerette tables: aa.arcade-museum.com/Automatic-Age-1938-03/Automatic-Age-1938-03-075.pdfThe article, dated 1938, mentions the origins in Europe "six years earlier" so we are talking 1931/1932 for the birth of our noble game. There is this further reference on the website of the International Arcade Museum :
"There is no known listing for this game in any of the standard reference books, but it does appear on a list of games made from 1931-1939 which was published in the January 1940 issue of the Coin Machine Journal.
I do not have the game, and have never played it,but an elder brother of mine did in the nineteen thirties. He used to play Billiards at a Local Hall in the town of Hastings in East Sussex United Kingdom . In 1938 he came home with a Pewter Tankard inscribed SNOOKERETTE LEAGUE which I still have . Within the inscription is circular plaque depicting two players at the corner of what appears to be a Billiard Table. I have a vague recollection of him saying that Snookerette was played with obstacles , which if knocked down you were penalised for.
Automatic Billiard Corp., the Snookerette maker, released only 1 different machine in our database under this trade name."The first article mentions "hundreds of thousands of people playing on thousands of tables" in 1938 and I can only conclude that this is our very own version of bar billiards as we know it, with Snookerette being re-branded 'bar billiards' following the litigation referred to in an earlier post. |
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 21, 2014 10:05:27 GMT
I cannot remember seeing a snookerette timer before, even on the remarkably similar early Padmore tables wher I have seen the very similar French Brevette timers. I think the table with the snookerette timer (note I do not say Snookerette table) is an important find historically.
To me this is more evidence of the twin origins of the modern game in Kent (normal width) and earlier in East Anglia (French derivative narrow width) and I personally am quite happy to consign Mr Gill to a lesser role in the formation of our game. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 12:49:06 GMT
I would not be so ready to attempt to airbrush Mr Gill (= Mick Johnson's uncle  ) out of history, as I am sure the James Masters website and others would have taken their information from the book about the life of life of Ralph Tarratt "Knight of the Whistle" (Ralph a former Chairman of the AEBBA). Quote from Page 7 of KotW........ "In the 1930s an Englishman, David Gill, was in Belgium when he saw some men playing what was called Russian Billiards. Using the maker that Ralph would later employ for his earliest tables, called Jelkes, Gill got a table of his own made and before long nearly 20 counties were playing, mostly in the South."The snookerette timer is indeed interesting and appears to have a push-button mechanism. I have seen similar on an old Rileys of Accrington table they had at the Half Moon, Charlwood back in the 1970's. This one had a green light that came on when a coin was inserted and the bar lifted. Back to Ralph, I have found this press cutting from 1980/81 which also tells us more about the earlier history of his venture: "Former international referee Ralph Tarratt, who recently became a director of Horsham Football Club, has achieved an ambition he has nurtured since he founded his Southwater firm of Sussex Bar Billiards 40 years ago:
He has taken over the bar billiards side of his chief rivals, Capital Coin of Portslade, and now supplies the whole of Sussex and beyond with his bar billiards and pool tables.
Increasing his coverage by about one-third means that he and his ten-strong staff now have well over 400 bar billiards tables, and another 200-odd pool tables in Sussex. Among those helping him run the company are wife Joy and son Rod." |
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Post by BigPhilMac on Nov 24, 2015 22:24:40 GMT
Are part 2 and 3 of the timeline available?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2015 22:44:43 GMT
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 17, 2019 22:43:28 GMT
Had an interesting call from Ivor Champion (formerly Bar Billiards Kent) this morning.
Ivor now also thinks that narrow tables pre dated wide tables circa 1934.
Ivor believes that there were copyright problems and Sams / Jelkes invented the wider tables in 1934 to give them something unique to supply to rental companies and be distinct from the narrow tables.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 12:29:02 GMT
Had an interesting call from Ivor Champion (formerly Bar Billiards Kent) this morning. Ivor now also thinks that narrow tables pre dated wide tables circa 1934. Ivor believes that there were copyright problems and Sams / Jelkes invented the wider tables in 1934 to give them something unique to supply to rental companies and be distinct from the narrow tables. Ivor himself was part of the working party of April 2015 which came up with these findings on the early origins of the game:
There is also much to read elsewhere on "Snookerette" and copyright issues. A pity we can't have all these together on one thread.
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Post by tommo III on Dec 20, 2021 18:41:46 GMT
I have recently been trawling through national newspaper archives for evidence of organised play in the last century and made some interesting discoveries about leagues in Lincs, Herts, Derbys, Staffs, Somerset, Surrey, Essex and Kent/East Sussex - which are recorded elsewhere...
These two findings relate specifically to the 1930's:
Interesting that the first clip mentions bar billiards and the second one Snookerette. I consider it unlikely that a 10k break would have been possible in 1938 under the current configuration of peg positions and rules. (Unless Nigel is a re-incarnation of A. Spooner: the clue could be in the word "Spoons"  )
I was informed by a sage back in the 1960s that a) the one-up on 4th shot requirement and b) a ban on Riley tables with easidrop pockets were brought in as tables were too easy with rehular play-outs.
tommo
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taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Dec 22, 2021 8:46:31 GMT
ban on easy drop rings Tommo. Its not like everyone pulled them out of their tables overnight? the sale of easydrop rings on new tables maybe.....
Taffy
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Post by tommo III on Dec 22, 2021 12:59:59 GMT
ban on easy drop rings Tommo. Its not like everyone pulled them out of their tables overnight? the sale of easydrop rings on new tables maybe..... Taffy The easidrop rings I was referring to had four very prominent bars around the pockets, meaning the ball would never spin out, gravity would take effect immediately. You could virtually get the break each time with your eyes closed.
I have only ever seen this type of pocket on Riley tables (last century) and have never seen them on sale as an accessory.
My first local (John Slee's too) was the Nelson in Horsham and when I enquired why they didn't have a team, I was told that they used to host league play but were now banned from doing so due to having a Riley table. So we played for the next pub up the road - the White Hart - instead.
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taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Dec 23, 2021 7:34:59 GMT
i played with them once and the noise was horrific. like you were hitting your teeth with a hammer.
that would be a second reason to ban them!
Taffy
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lutijn
Forum Beginner
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Post by lutijn on Jun 14, 2022 9:29:59 GMT
I’m very interested in the history of this game , it seems billiard russ is the oldest form of it and all billiard russ tables miss the 200 points hole also I believe the original game is played with 1 skittle and the white ball is placed on the front part of the table instead on the cloth. I still have to find out what plays better but it seems
To me British bar billiards is an updated better version of billiard russ
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Post by tommo III on Jun 14, 2022 10:52:37 GMT
Welcome to the Forum. Well you've found this thread which is quite instructive, and suggest you visit the sub-board on "Tables/Ancestry/History" which you should find of interest.
Although variants exist to table configurations - which seem to go by country - the game became standardised in 1934 when the nine-hole design was brought over from Belgium and tables were produced in their 100's - maybe 1000's - by either one of two manufacturers: Jelks of North London and SAMS Brothers of Hoddesdon, Herts.
Leagues then sprung up in Oxford, High Wycombe, Canterbury, Winchester and nearly every pub in town seemed to have a table. 8-Ball Pool then became popular in the 1980s and many pubs opted for this instead as it was easier to learn to play to an acceptable standard.
I have not mentioned the 4-Mushrooms version played on narrower tables and originally badged as "Snookerette". This is prevalent in East Anglia and the Fen District.
Sometimes ornately-carved tables are found, with one hole (the highest value one) missing. We know these as the French version. It is possible to drill out the extra hole and thus get a normal game as the tables are of robust construction.
Tables made by Rileys of Accrington are attractive and ideal for home use but for some reason are shunned by the Leagues. As are also the 'modern' ones manufactured by "Supreme" - not favoured by our players as they have "Pool DNA" with a coin slot for an electronic timer rather than the handle-pull for clockwork, and the earlier ones had an MDF base (rather than a solid slate) and simply did not play well.
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) out of history, as I am sure the James Masters website and others would have taken their information from the book about the life of life of Ralph Tarratt "Knight of the Whistle" (Ralph a former Chairman of the AEBBA).
)