|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 23, 2015 2:50:48 GMT
Why is there no rule covering the 'professional foul', other than the one that only applies after the bar has dropped?
Maybe a rule similar to the "free ball" in snooker and pool could come into play, where if Player A is left without a clear straight-line shot at a ball after Player B's foul, then the furthest ball from the back cushion is returned to the red spot (this would not count as a break shot, as the red ball could be used as a cue ball).
If Player B left only one ball on the table, then Player A would essentially be playing from the break position (and would be entitled to do so four times rather than the usual three, due to Player A's first shot not counting as a "break shot").
If more than one ball is left on the table, then Player A has the opportunity to use those two balls from the break position to try and move the other balls into more playable positions.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 9:32:09 GMT
Hey Joe,
As you probably realise, the AEBBA Rules have been in existence for several decades and continually tweaked as new contentious situations arise: attempts have been made to cover most eventualities but certain things have to be left to scorers' discretion, particularly whether a foul was accidental or deliberate (very difficult to prove).
The two situations, which deliberate or otherwise can put an opponent under a disadvantage seem to be a) miscueing off the D and b) playing a ball gently along the baulkline onto another ball.
The latter is quite simply not a foul and seen as being 'all in the game' although seen as being rather unsporting. The next player has the choice of doing the same, but if well behind will usually 'do a sacrifice' and blast both balls away with their next shot.
The former situation is covered by AEBBA Rules 110j and 110o : the ball is returned to the tray, so as not to disadvantage the player about to play.
As regards the professional foul situation, yes indeed AEBBA Rule 115 only mentions a deliberate foul shot penalty after the bar has gone. This is because the outcome of the game could be affected, thus the offended player is given a chance with a ball otherwise lost due to the fall of the bar. If anyone should choose to miss during the normal course of play, then more fool them ! Okay, a difficult situation could be left to the opponent - but part of the skill of the game is in being able to 'clear difficult balls' from the table.
Let me know if this provides clarification - or if you have encountered a situation which doesn't appear to have been covered.
Cheers,
tommo
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 23, 2015 13:15:38 GMT
Not a professional foul but the situation where I was punished for an opponent's mistake recently was where the opponent knocked over the white peg and the peg went back on its spot behind and touching the only ball but not leaning. Left me a totally impossible shot which I had to play as I was a little behind at the time. Needless to say the peg went and my opponent got back to break.
|
|
|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 23, 2015 13:21:30 GMT
Pocketing the cue ball isn't the only foul I'm trying to cover here. Basically, my rule would go something like this:
If the previous player's last shot was a foul and the incoming player is snookered on all balls as a result, the furthest ball from the back cushion shall be reset to the red spot. A ball is snookered if the player has no straight line shot to both sides of that ball.
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 23, 2015 13:37:14 GMT
Simpler rule would be, as in snooker after a foul shot, that the following player has the right to make the player who fouled play again with the resulting position of the previous foul shot.
|
|
|
Post by milhouse on Feb 23, 2015 13:40:41 GMT
Not a professional foul but the situation where I was punished for an opponent's mistake recently was where the opponent knocked over the white peg and the peg went back on its spot behind and touching the only ball but not leaning. Left me a totally impossible shot which I had to play as I was a little behind at the time. Needless to say the peg went and my opponent got back to break.
That ball must come back then? When re-spotting the peg, it cannot be touching any ball? That is the rule as i understand it and what every other person i know play to ?
|
|
|
Post by milhouse on Feb 23, 2015 13:41:51 GMT
Pocketing the cue ball isn't the only foul I'm trying to cover here. Basically, my rule would go something like this: If the previous player's last shot was a foul and the incoming player is snookered on all balls as a result, the furthest ball from the back cushion shall be reset to the red spot. A ball is snookered if the player has no straight line shot to both sides of that ball. A foul and a professional foul are two different things. A professional foul would suggest no attempt to play a ball. This is where the grey areas start....
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Feb 23, 2015 14:11:18 GMT
Not a professional foul but the situation where I was punished for an opponent's mistake recently was where the opponent knocked over the white peg and the peg went back on its spot behind and touching the only ball but not leaning. Left me a totally impossible shot which I had to play as I was a little behind at the time. Needless to say the peg went and my opponent got back to break.
That ball must come back then? When re-spotting the peg, it cannot be touching any ball? That is the rule as i understand it and what every other person i know play to ? AEBBA rules 103) Should a ball knock a skittle off its spot but the skittle does not fall over, the score shall count and the skittle should be replaced in its correct position before the next shot is played, unless prevented by a ball encroaching on the skittle’s correct position, in which case it should be replaced as soon as the spot is clear, see rule 114. 104) Should any ball be touching a skittle causing it to lean, or preventing it from being respotted, this ball should be returned to the rack AT THE END OF THE BREAK.
It is a remarkably common misconception that a touching ball is returned - 'taint true as only a ball causing a leaning peg is returned. If in the chalker's view the peg can be replaced without causing the peg to lean even if it is touching then that's OK (if a bit harsh!!) Tony
|
|
|
Post by milhouse on Feb 23, 2015 14:29:15 GMT
That ball must come back then? When re-spotting the peg, it cannot be touching any ball? That is the rule as i understand it and what every other person i know play to ? AEBBA rules 103) Should a ball knock a skittle off its spot but the skittle does not fall over, the score shall count and the skittle should be replaced in its correct position before the next shot is played, unless prevented by a ball encroaching on the skittle’s correct position, in which case it should be replaced as soon as the spot is clear, see rule 114. 104) Should any ball be touching a skittle causing it to lean, or preventing it from being respotted, this ball should be returned to the rack AT THE END OF THE BREAK.
It is a remarkably common misconception that a touching ball is returned - 'taint true as only a ball causing a leaning peg is returned. If in the chalker's view the peg can be replaced without causing the peg to lean even if it is touching then that's OK (if a bit harsh!!) Tony But if you are trying to respot the peg and it touches a ball, then you have moved the ball, so it was stopping the peg from being spotted.
|
|
|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 23, 2015 14:50:08 GMT
Simpler rule would be, as in snooker after a foul shot, that the following player has the right to make the player who fouled play again with the resulting position of the previous foul shot. If that happens, then the fouling player can just repeatedly foul and keep being asked to play again, until the other player gives up and has to take the shot him/herself.
|
|
|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 23, 2015 14:51:22 GMT
Pocketing the cue ball isn't the only foul I'm trying to cover here. Basically, my rule would go something like this: If the previous player's last shot was a foul and the incoming player is snookered on all balls as a result, the furthest ball from the back cushion shall be reset to the red spot. A ball is snookered if the player has no straight line shot to both sides of that ball. A foul and a professional foul are two different things. A professional foul would suggest no attempt to play a ball. This is where the grey areas start.... For a free ball to occur in snooker, you don't necessarily have to have a professional foul, but the free ball rule was created to avoid professional fouls.
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Feb 23, 2015 15:03:48 GMT
AEBBA rules 103) Should a ball knock a skittle off its spot but the skittle does not fall over, the score shall count and the skittle should be replaced in its correct position before the next shot is played, unless prevented by a ball encroaching on the skittle’s correct position, in which case it should be replaced as soon as the spot is clear, see rule 114. 104) Should any ball be touching a skittle causing it to lean, or preventing it from being respotted, this ball should be returned to the rack AT THE END OF THE BREAK.
It is a remarkably common misconception that a touching ball is returned - 'taint true as only a ball causing a leaning peg is returned. If in the chalker's view the peg can be replaced without causing the peg to lean even if it is touching then that's OK (if a bit harsh!!) Tony But if you are trying to respot the peg and it touches a ball, then you have moved the ball, so it was stopping the peg from being spotted. Not necessarily!! I should get some tablets for that shaky hand Mark!!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 16:24:37 GMT
That ball must come back then? When re-spotting the peg, it cannot be touching any ball? That is the rule as i understand it and what every other person i know play to ? I would say yes to that as under the laws of physics two objects touching must also be leaning towards each other to do so - albeit by a miniscule amount. (Newton's Law of Universal Gravity, I believe).
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 16:44:56 GMT
If that happens, then the fouling player can just repeatedly foul and keep being asked to play again, until the other player gives up and has to take the shot him/herself. Very true also, has happened to me: The Windmill was quite a happy hunting ground for you boys - no low beams to knock yourself out on - and I remember Joppers going off with about 8k against me a couple of years later, leaving me with a ball right in front of a peg, and most of the rest of the game spent with neither of us making a serious attempt to clear it. He rounded on me angrily afterwards, but he was the one who put it there, and I had absolutely nothing to gain out of the game unless he moved it for me! I was damned if I was going to be the one to 'sacrifice' - he wanted to make ten thousand, but that was up to him: I wanted him to earn it rather than make it easy for him!
|
|
|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 23, 2015 16:54:19 GMT
The York league's interpretation is that if the ball is touching the pin at the end of he break, it comes back, although that's under the occupied spot rule, rather than the leaning rule. The assumption is that if a ball hits the pin, it must move very slightly due to the momentum of the ball.
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Feb 23, 2015 17:03:07 GMT
That ball must come back then? When re-spotting the peg, it cannot be touching any ball? That is the rule as i understand it and what every other person i know play to ? I would say yes to that as under the laws of physics two objects touching must also be leaning towards each other to do so - albeit by a miniscule amount. (Newton's Law of Universal Gravity, I believe). Oooh - look at you with yer Newton's Law of Universal Gravity!! Pffft.... Newton's law of universal gravitation doesn't mention Bar Billiards at all!! Tony
|
|
|
Post by The Bullet on Feb 23, 2015 17:03:15 GMT
Guernsey has the following rule
44 Players committing the following fouls will lose both registered and unregistered scores: (a) Knocking over the black skittle. (b) Deliberately missing the object ball.
If in the opinion of the marker a player deliberately misses a ball they loss the game.
Maybe the AEBBA would benefit by looking a something similar to stop "professional fouls ".
|
|
|
Post by Coleman Jnr on Feb 23, 2015 17:24:07 GMT
My understanding of the rule was that if a ball is touching the peg, but a foul has not been committed then that ball is live and will stay in play, if a peg has fallen and upon re-spotting it is touching a ball then the ball is returned, because it is impossible to re-spot the peg without moving the ball albeit probably a fraction of a mm. I think that 99% of scorers would follow this rule and if they didn't then as the next player I would certainly question it. This would obviously stop what happened to Sav, and prevent the following player receiving a disadvantage from someone else's mistake.
|
|
|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 23, 2015 17:50:48 GMT
Looks like I'm mistaken, and a touching ball should be left in place:
103) Should a ball knock a skittle off its spot but the skittle does not fall over, the score shall count and the skittle should be replaced in its correct position before the next shot is played, unless prevented by a ball encroaching on the skittle’s correct position, in which case it should be replaced as soon as the spot is clear, see rule 114.
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Feb 23, 2015 18:20:10 GMT
Looks like I'm mistaken, and a touching ball should be left in place: 103) Should a ball knock a skittle off its spot but the skittle does not fall over, the score shall count and the skittle should be replaced in its correct position before the next shot is played, unless prevented by a ball encroaching on the skittle’s correct position, in which case it should be replaced as soon as the spot is clear, see rule 114. I think I said that four hours ago - doh - try and keep up Joe!!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 18:54:29 GMT
What hope for us if we, who have been playing the game for 40+ years, can't agree on the significance of the announcement of "touching ball" !
So, what do we tell Joe, who started this thread ?
He may well have a point, and as BC has pointed out, Guernsey have their own rule for in the case of a professional foul.
The means to get a rule amended or introduced is of course by making a proposal to go before the AEBBA AGM - which is 10 months away ! And of course to be considered in the first place you have to become an Affiliated County (by payment of a small fee). I'm sure others will be able to guide you on this.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Feb 23, 2015 19:07:04 GMT
And Portsmouth have different rules where the Black counts at all times Clive
|
|
|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 24, 2015 0:27:11 GMT
What hope for us if we, who have been playing the game for 40+ years, can't agree on the significance of the announcement of "touching ball" ! So, what do we tell Joe, who started this thread ? He may well have a point, and as BC has pointed out, Guernsey have their own rule for in the case of a professional foul. The means to get a rule amended or introduced is of course by making a proposal to go before the AEBBA AGM - which is 10 months away ! And of course to be considered in the first place you have to become an Affiliated County (by payment of a small fee). I'm sure others will be able to guide you on this. I don't think Yorkshire is quite at the standard where it's worth bothering to affiliate! My proposed rule doesn't cover the situation where the ball is left touching the skittle, although I think I was quoting the wrong rule earlier. I actually meant this one: Which we judge to mean that if the ball is touching, then the skittle can't be respotted.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 8:59:46 GMT
Yes, Joe, the rule you mention has probably had the most discussion over the years - at what point is the ball given back ?
For many years the scorer was not allowed to "alter the table" while a break was in progress, but (comparatively recently) it was voted to allow him to reposition the peg immediately if knocked off its spot providing that he/she was able to without disturbing a ball. .
Otherwise the peg is repositioned at the end of the break - and if a ball was encroaching, this then comes back.
The 4-Pin version of the game still play to the 'old' ruling, ie the mushroom if moved but still standing stays for the duration of the break !
Another playing rule where game versions have a different slant is where two balls are 'bridged' over a hole. Channel Islands (off-the-spot) rules give the front ball back immediately and reposition the back ball as close the lip as possible to where it was left ! Under Mainland rules the situation is left to play at until one ball has to be given back.......
|
|
|
Post by joefoxon on Feb 26, 2015 12:21:24 GMT
So in that case, any professional foul rule would have to cover the ball left touching the pin as well, unless you assume that the ball would come back if it's touching.
|
|