Alternative Rules

[NigelS]

First of all I think it is only fair to comment if you have given the rules a try. I do enjoy this as a one off event every year. I obviously would not want to see these rules become common place as one event a year is enough but it has its place in the calender. However, I am disappointed that this event replaced the national off the spot singles, I think there is a place for both competitions which I have said before.

I will add you still have to be a good player to win this event, KT has won it the most times (3) since the rules were changed, Dennis Atkins and Pete Farrelly are former open winners that have also won this.

The four mushroom game, I have not tried, but I can see no benefit from changing the current alternative rules to this. I actually think that would be far more 'hit and hope' and less skillful.

tommo said:

Is the point you are making: like me, you wouldn't travel miles and miles to play in a tournament that wasn't proper bar billiards ?

Basically yes!

I am passionate and I don't mind "change" in rules for a different game once in a while, however this new alternative rules takes "the mick"!

[Chris_Sav]

sithlord said:

I am passionate and I don't mind "change" in rules for a different game once in a while, however this new alternative rules takes "the mick"!

As Nigel said you are not in a postion to call it a load of rubbish unless you've tried it.

It is voted upon every year at our local AGM and voted in for the pairs in our Spring League Cup when all play all. Our league is run by the 90% of regular players who are given the oportunity to decide what they want and not the 10% who don't want the rules changed because thay can beat the other 90% as things stand. Tha's the reason we still have a league when both the much bigger leagues near us have long since folded.

Triangles almost invariably means the games are still being contested until at least the last couple of minutes which gives interesting finishes and not games that are over after the first break.

'Open your mind young Jedi'

Sav

It's me you should be picking on, not Johnny - I started this ! :o

Maybe it's the little bit of Joe Blunt in me (my great-grandfather came from Yorkshire) but I can't help but allude to the words "Emperor" and "suit of clothes". ;)

What we have here is similar to a game of tennis where no-one is allowed to serve aces. Or a game of football where the pitch is a mile long thus reducing the opportunity of a high-scoring match.

Bar billiards it ain't.

The four-mushrooms game IS a reputable and viable alternative.
There are probably people 'oop north who have been playing it for years and years who don't know any different: Nigel, I have tried both games, and four-mushrooms requires FAR more skill than triangles, which is just about a load of off-the cush shots and bending round the black peg with a lot of side. Four mushrooms brings in delicate judging of pace and calculation of angles, as well as doing power shots off the break down to the 20's and 30's.

You're all pussies and you're scared to try it ! :P

(tommo steps back, fully expecting Sav to carry out his veiled threat of 'something nasty for tommo for halloween' by locking his account for the day !) ::)

[milhouse]

sav said:

The only adaption we have made is for scores to go on the board and not lost by a white peg if a player gets back to break.

The break shot can be played from anywhere in the 'D' as per my friend?? the Colemanator.

Sav, couple of things about what you have just said....
1) are you saying that if you clear all the balls, you keep your score before breaking again ?
2) the break-off shot can be played anywhere on the D ?

[Chris_Sav]

milhouse said:

Sav, couple of things about what you have just said....
1) are you saying that if you clear all the balls, you keep your score before breaking again ?
2) the break-off shot can be played anywhere on the D ?

Yup
2) The game was never intended to be off the spot, AEBBA adapted it to try and keep 'Jersey Practice'. We play the 'break' from anywhere in the 'D'.
1) We added that rule last year as an experiment and it proved very popular. It is now permanent in our local rules.

Re other comments from the Quizmeister, Clive you can quote all the examples you like, but there is no other game in the land where, in some cases, you haven't got a chance in winning before you have a go (if you even get one). That's alway been my gripe over calling Jersey the 'World Champs' as having the rough end of the first three rounds for most of the last six years.

I firmly believe the dinosaur attitude that pevails in our game is hastening its demise.

Sav.

[SirKT]

Think i`ll add my two penneth.

I haven`t got any objections to this competition, in fact i normally enter for a bit of fun. This time i was otherwise engaged (my stag do the night before), and didn`t think i`d be up for a full day on the green beize. :P 8-)

My biggest beef >:( as a few of you will know, is the fact the AEBBA use the same trophy that was used under the "old normal rules". :-/
The National Bar Billiards Ass. Individuals as it was called then has seen most of the top players taking part, trying to win this wonderful cup, with a bit of prize money thrown in as well.

Now we see the same trophy used for the Alternative rules open, surely the AEBBA could have stretched the funds to buy a new trophy of some kind, or even found a sponsor willing to fund a new one.

Oh and one other thing, if this competition was meant to stop the top players winning, it hasn`t worked. Like Nigel said, since the rules changed, top players still reach the finals, the cream still comes to the top as they say. ;)

1998 Les Green bt Mark Brewster
1999 KT bt Ray Hussey :)
2000 KT bt Barry Holt :)
2001 Phil Hawkins bt Dennis Atkins
2002 Dennis Atkins bt Milko
2003 KT bt Milko :)
2004 Tony Woolvin bt KT
2005 Fazza bt Sav

This competition will always come a poor second to the original, but as for a warm up for Jersey, i think not.
Remember, they do use the break shot over there ! ;)

Sav,
Maybe I should state better in which camp I stand.
1. I am all in favour of an alternative rules competition.
2. I think the novelty of the Channel Islands Rules for the World Championships is good for the game.
3. I think it is good to have a "curtain raiser" just in advance of the World Championships.
4. I think it was better when this was an Open Off-the-Spot competition.
5. I would like to see a separate BIOC Off-the-Spot re-introduced.
6. I think your Triangles has been successful over the last few years and enjoyed by all who took part.
7. I think Triangles has run its course as someone winged that the 32 ? entries was "disappointing".
8. There seems to be a stigma attached to the four mushrooms game - we treat it as 'unclean' the same way as we are treated ourselves by world cue-sports authorities.
9. I agree with your comments about dinosaurs and think that the game would become very boring if it were played the same way all the time.
10. The above is an attempt to separate "apples" from "oranges" - lumping them together is a well-known management arguing tool which I encounter quite often on this Forum ! ;)

[milhouse]

sav said:

milhouse said:

Sav, couple of things about what you have just said....
1) are you saying that if you clear all the balls, you keep your score before breaking again ?
2) the break-off shot can be played anywhere on the D ?

Yup
2) The game was never intended to be off the spot, AEBBA adapted it to try and keep 'Jersey Practice'. We play the 'break' from anywhere in the 'D'.
1) We added that rule last year as an experiment and it proved very popular. It is now permanent in our local rules.

Oh right, sorry, so these aren't the rules we were supposed to be playing to on Sunday then ?

[Colemanator]

sav said:

as per my friend?? the Colemanator.

?????? Of course you are 8-)

[davejones]

We ocassionally have the four peg game as a fund raiser in Worthing.

It can be a lot of fun with the top players trying to work out the best break.

In fact the last time it was played the top break went to Gareth Lloyd.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

davejones said:

We ocassionally have the four peg game as a fund raiser in Worthing.

Might explain why tommo might want this game then ;)

KT. In reply to your statements, I agree on the trophy, a bad choice by the AEBBA.

Your list of winners I presume have all been played 'off the spot' again emphasising that this is suiting better players, the whole point of the game was to make it 'easy' and only remove the break shots.
When in Kent I won the 'alternative rules comp' played off the spot, as my experience put me in far better stead than most of the locals. In the league we used the 'D' and it is at least 50% easier to play then. Keeping the triangle towards the 100 also makes it easier without using cushions etc, as any off the spot player knows.

In Kent it is a very popular format, far more so than handicap systems, which never work and is exactly where AEBBA have done with it, handicapped the lesser players without thinking.

sav said:

Re other comments from the Quizmeister, Clive you can quote all the examples you like, but there is no other game in the land where, in some cases, you haven't got a chance in winning before you have a go (if you even get one). That's alway been my gripe over calling Jersey the 'World Champs' as having the rough end of the first three rounds for most of the last six years.

Just to follow on from this point, I was at pains yesterday to convey my views from both sides of the argument.
Re: The part of your quote I have highlighted - you should count yourself lucky you come from Kent. In Sussex (I am always alluding to this and I know they hate me for it) it is decided for you at Interleague if you have the short straw, by the Captain.
At least at Jersey if you lose in the first round you may be entitled to curse your own luck of having had an unlucky draw. And there's a plate anyway. In Sussex you curse your captain under your breath if you have been offered as a sacrificial lamb against a top player with the break on his own table and without there having been a proper draw. I was talking about this to a teammate in Reigate last last and his suprised reaction was "Eh ? That can't be right !"
So yes, there is no other game in the land where, in some cases, you have been given absolutely no chance in winning by your own captain before you have a go, even if you get one - but only in Sussex ! >:(

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

It has been mentioned before on the forum Clive but I would tend to agree with you it cannot be good for players as regards confidence to know you could be a sacrifice. I guess it would all depend on the tactics of the captain at the time what percentage of risk he wants to take. Doesn't sound my cup of tea though, do the captains end up with any friends ? ;) ;D

Strange sets of emotions come into it, Kevin, which shouldn't have anything to do with bar billiards.
It is almost as if you two castes exist within a team - bankers and w*****s. The bankers are expected to win as they have the break on the home table. If they do not win they are shunned as 'unclean' afterwards by their teammates. :(
The situation is added to by the evil glint in the eye of the player whose name is put alongside yours on the card, they obviously fancy their chances of giving you a good hiding even without the benefit of the break. ???
And woe betide you if you don't know your home table well enough. This never happens away of course, the table is so easy to the opponent that an effortless 10k is made followed by a touch-up, leaving you no chance. :'(
If you are given the break on the away table, you have been honoured in being one of the four 'away bankers' who are trusted to be able to read all the nuances of the specially-prepared top with a little-roll-here-or-there-just-to-catch-you-out
straight away without any margin for error. You feel a heel because you have been entrusted with a precious jewel which one other more worthy teammate could or should have had. So woe betide you if you don't make the most of the situation.
If you are one of the three sacrificial lambs, you feel pangs of injured pride that your captain doesn't rate you as a player and would rather rely on others. :o
That leaves the one circumstance out of four that the night can turn out to be enjoyable - playing against the break on your home table and still coming out a winner. But if you do, you must be prepared to face a barrage of wingeing from your defeated opponent who will no doubt claim that the table was slow or uphill or rolled badly - anything but give you any form of credit for having come out on top. ::)

[beefy]

If you want a game of skill, and one that could be recognised as a true Alternative method of playing by other counties where there are tables but no-one plays seriously, why not have the game where you have four mushrooms, placed in front of the 200, 100 and both 50s ?

Noiw that would be interesting beacuse last I looked mushrooms grow in dirt not baise !

That would be too easy though because you would be able to straight pot into the 20/30 hole all day might not be a big score but would be easy to pot the ball from the spot if the white pegs are removed from between the 30 and 20 holes.

Eventually you would have to play another shot as the cue ball would drift out away from the spot but providing you leave it in a straight line to the 20 or 30 and no where near the 50 whole any one that plays a cue sport should be able to aim the ball into an open hole all day !

As with many things, sounds good in theory, but not so easy when you put it to the test.
I have my own table at home and the best feature of my game is an ability to pot away at the fifties.
The most I have ever scored in one break on the four mushrooms game is about 1500, which to me puts it on an equal scale of difficulty to Alternative Rules (triangles).

[fazza]

There is a four-pin league in this county, but the nap runs the opposite way, the tables are narrower and the scores are doubled for any pot after the bar drops.

I played a couple of summer seasons in that league many, many years ago, and found that you could struggle for 16 mins scoring 1000 and then score more than that with the last few balls, including 800 with the last shot.

Didn't seem worth it somehow! Like reading the back pages of a book, or the end of the BBQ (the nice bits) first.

[Chris_Sav]

Does the Irthlingborough Four Pin league still exist Peter?? I noticed their web site disppeared a couple of years ago and removed it from my links.

[fazza]

I would be surprised if it didn't, but you may be right. I have not seen any press reports for some time as I do not frequent local pubs these days.

If it does exist, surely there is a strong case for the Northants 'ordinary' bar billiards league to take them on in a challenge match under their rules.
If they win, so what?
You could turn out a reasonable side and give them a run for their money. Opportunity for some fund-raising too. Could even make it big as local news with the right sort of angle on the event.

[fazza]

tommo said:

If it does exist, surely there is a strong case for the Northants 'ordinary' bar billiards league to take them on in a challenge match under their rules.

Been there, done that, years ago!

Good fun.

We played on their table first. All of us were virgins, even me!
It was THAT long ago.

If memory serves, it was a high-score draw 4-4 (?)

When they visited us, it was something like 7-0, they just could not compete with our mastery of "hogging" the table.

fazza said:

tommo said:

If it does exist, surely there is a strong case for the Northants 'ordinary' bar billiards league to take them on in a challenge match under their rules.

Been there, done that, years ago!
Good fun.
We played on their table first. All of us were virgins, even me!
It was THAT long ago.
If memory serves, it was a high-score draw 4-4 (?)
When they visited us, it was something like 7-0, they just could not compete with our mastery of "hogging" the table.

Well the mischief-maker in me offers the following food for thought - why not offer the four-mushrooms game as the Alternative Rules competition one year ?
Rather than just challenge the poor guys from Irthlingborough and just slap them down as inferior, encourage them to enter a Nationally rated competition held under their rules.

The benefits I see as :
1. It should attract a bigger entry.
2. New players might be discovered - and even encouraged into our fold.
3. It could give a fillip to their version of the game and help it from dying out completely. (Unless I'm alone in not wanting this to happen, you 'orrible lot !)