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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 13:58:01 GMT
Just been clearing out the junk from my loft and came across a couple of boxes full of old bar billiards trophies from the 80's. Most are for the Sudbury and District league but I've found two from the Newmarket & Bury St Edmunds league, one for league champs and the other for highest break, so proof the old Newmarket league did really exist and for what it's worth the picture on the emblem shows a four pin table, which is what I'm sure I remember playing. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 14:01:20 GMT
I used to play in the Sudbury and Newmarket league - least i think it was called soething like that? - twice, the first time was in the early 80's and the second time was the early 90s. I played for the Tharp Arms, Chippenham in CAMBRIDGESHIRE and the pub had also had a table in the early 70s too and the plaque over the table read: 'Knocker's winning shot 1974'. as the Suffolk/Cambs border is legendary for its shape in the newmarket region i can't be arsed to tell you where the tables were but we had at times: saxon street Reindeer Kirtling Beehive Dalham Afflek Arms The Marquis of Granby, Newmarket The Snailwell George & Dragon (Cambs) the above were in the North and then in the South we traveled to The Lavenham Angel Poslingfield Shepherd & Dog Stansfield Compasses Denston Plumber's Arms Lidgate Star A and B team there were NO SUDBURY teams whatsoever - none, zilch. that or we simply had different leagues? we played for a short time at the Flenston greyhound??? we travelled the furthest along with the G & D to matches. I was quite good and I got the leagues highest break-in-a-game for two seasons with about 2,000+ and that was on an away table both times. But i always pushed my luck! even the second time! I loved the sheer variety of tables, that was awesome! everyone agreed that the Tharp's table was the best table to play on. it had a lovely thick beize on it and the balls didn't runaway from you. it was an Alfred Sams table and the first table had a lovely symetry to it, it seemed wider and if you cut a nice 50 the object ball would roll just past the skittle into the 100 and THAT is symetry! the second table, ten years later was also a Sams table - we insisted on it! but it never played the same? no symetry. we then had a table in the pub some 4 years ago till 2 years ago and again the angles just didn't work and i forget who made it but it was a 3-pin converted....no good (not to my eyes anyway!) Taffy |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 14:04:55 GMT
Hi Taffy, Welcome to the Forum. Good to hear from someone else (other than Daveuk1) who had an involvement with 4-Pin 30 or 40 years ago. Much of the history of bar billiards/snookerette in the Fens region is obscure, but fascinating nonetheless. 4-Pin is still alive and well in and around Sudbury, which has its own Board on here, with Daveuk1 a prolific contributor. Travel westwards and the lines become a bit blurred. "Cambridgeshire" is primarily a 3-Pin county and used to compete at national level until a few years ago. There is no league play in Cambridge itself, however, with the league really being concentrated in the old Huntingdonshire. The Isle of Ely (particularly Wisbech) on the other hand seems to be part of a 4-Pin enclave which stretches northwards, skirting Peterborough and over the Lincs border, with evidence found of the existence of Gedney Hill and District Snookerette League. This does however seem to be casually-run organisation with no apparent wish to compete with or establish contact with other 4-pin leagues. tommo |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 14:08:16 GMT
yes it was the Newmarket and BSE league, that sounds right. weird how the game has crept south like a fog? I reckon all these things come down to some-one individual really putting in the effort. someone who believes! we played with red ball at the back white at the front a red skittle and three black skittles over the 100 and 50. voluntary 200 at the end which only 30% took. we had the finals at the Kirtling Beehive once in about 1994 and the couple that ran the league had a French Surname. In the individual finals, Our Tharp lad- Andy Pollard - made it to the final, anyway The lad from Saxon Street Reindeer was mustard and proceeded to take Andy to the cleaners! Andy was just putting balls on the top for him to pocket! Anyway, old Louis the League secretary was scoring the game but he keeled over on the table! the game was stopped and Louis was checked over and parked in the corner. The game had been stopped and upon restarting it, Andy smashed him and won the Individual final! The Tharp team was a young team and with the table being so nice we all went for our shots! It only worked 50% of the time. fun though! everyone else was old and from fast tables, everything was a safe 10-20-30....yawn! LOL!!! Taffy |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 14:11:09 GMT
Just having had a chat with my friend 'Alfie' Noakes we went through them there good ol' days and had a really good laugh about them. we reckon the Nmkt & BSE League was run for a few years by a couple and the man's name was Rene (thus the french connection i spoke of) he may have been a landlord himself and we think it was somewhere in Kirtling! Another name that came up was 'Brookesy', he could tell the tale of tales and reckoned he'd played BB for England which always gave us a chuckle! Anyway, he played over at the Hundon 'Rose & Crown' and ended up seeing quite a lot of the landlord's buxom brunette landlady wife. It was on the front page of 'The Sun; you know the type of headline: 'Buxom Barmaid Breaks off with Brookesy' type of thing. great story and they are still an item I believe? As for the table, yup, it was a WIDE Alfred Sams that we played on. you sent the object ball down between the 20 and the 10, let it come back, off the side and into the 50 pocket. In the meantime the Cue ball skirted round the back of the 50 skittle and if you were lucky you'd earnt 150 off a break shot. great table..... Taffy Alfie also reminded me of a player at the Denston Plumbers Arms who had to remove his 'hook' and used to put a cross of wood (rather like a 'X' rest in snooker) on his arm instead. He used to 'lock & load' and was ready to go! One of my mates even met his Wife 100% due to Bar Billiards. The Lidgate Star #3 got her shots potted by the Tharp Arms #2!!! LOL!!!! as we might say round here: it was a grut laugh! Taffy |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 14:21:22 GMT
Hello Back in the day, the worst table was at the Snailwell G & D, our 'sister village' in the North here. you merely tapped the ball, it flew up the table, came back off the tap and broke your thumb still pinned to the leather! you couldn't do ANYTHING. for young lads at the Tharp, it was a nightmare and a gauranteed 7-2 or some such to the Dragon. so anything with a bit of angle in it and shots you can 'go for' is welcome! ....another pleaseure was the way the mushrooms stayed up and you could rattle them a bit. with skittles it seems to me, they are gone straight away, of course we can contest how close to a hole they are. back in the day, they were delicate skittles and close to the hole, any ball going around the edge and yet still going down still knocked a peg over - very unfair!! these mushrooms don't! One thing i missed was that our Sams tables had the 4 notches in the mouth of the hole and that meant you could get on with the game! why hasn't everyone gone to that system? .... our Southern most table had the oldest and wisest team and they were a tough nut to crack, that was the Lavenham Angel and a look on the map will show you that they are/were close to Sudbury and I recall them saying how they had a Wednesday night game and some of them played on a Tue/Thu in the Sudbury League so yes, i guess it was about then. Just for the record, all tables in the day had skittles, not one had mushrooms, and you had a red aver the 200 and three blacks on the other three holes: 100 and 50 x 2. there were no white skittles. also, you only lost all your score for the match if you knocked the 200 over. Ely pubs back in the day did have a table or two but they were all three pin. I'd need to get hold of my old mate 'Skep' if I knew where he was? Skep was keen on the 3-pin and we would convert the table between the two for a bit-of-a-challenge! he'd know the Ely area. But surely all these things come down to the people who rent out the fruit machines and space invaders/ they do the pool tables as well and would probably have handled bar billiards tables as well. I have a friend at Kennett (between Newmarket and BSE) who runs 'Leisure electronics' and they haver been going 50 years. His name is Stuart 'Knuckles' McLaren. if you ask him about Rugby, as his nickname implies, he wasn't there and he didn't do it! LOL!!!!!! But stuart might know what tables they rented out back in the day? regards Taffy |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 14:32:13 GMT
The history of the 4-Pin version of the game is of great interest to me and I have looked up all the pubs mentioned that existed in the Newmarket League and only a few are still going to this day. * Investigation on the current status of each of the above pending ! * GREEN = Still has a table, albeit non-league ORANGE = Pub still exists, but no table RED = Closed or demolished |
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Post by daveuk1 on Nov 8, 2016 17:51:07 GMT
For my sins I played for the Lavenham angel in the Newmarket league on Wednesday nights and then Thursday nights for Cornard kings Head in the sudbury league
Can't remember all the names but believe the angel team included, Cyril Grainger, Jim eady, Dave Aldous, Jeff Bridges and myself. the late great Cyril was Mr bar billiards, he had scrap books with every thing he could find about b b but alas these were mislaid after his sad passing.
I can't remember the pubs we played against, all I remember is was during my serious time as even home games at the angel were away games for me as Lavenham was a good 15min drive
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taffy
Full Forum Member
Posts: 374
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Post by taffy on Nov 14, 2016 21:51:57 GMT
was cyril a bald headed fella? captain as well?
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 11:24:44 GMT
Stansfield CompassesLidgate Star A and B team GREEN = Still has a table, albeit non-league First of all, the good news: the above two are, as far as can be discerned, available to visit for a game. The Star's website mentions bar billiards despite having been converted to a Catalan restaurant. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 11:31:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 11:52:29 GMT
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taffy
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Posts: 374
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Post by taffy on Nov 22, 2016 1:22:45 GMT
Hello
I played in the Newmarket and BSE League twice: from 1978 till 1982 when the table, a beautiful wide Sams left the pub and then later in around 1989 we had another Sams and I played again from '89 till about 1992 when my mortgage killed midweek festivities.
The pub I played for was the Tharp Arms at Chippenham, Cambridgeshire which is actually surrounded by Suffolk on about three sides. The shape of the Cambs/Suffolk border is legendary around Newmarket with Cambs and Cambs only being separated by Suffolk by 200 yards at one point. So Cambs pubs and Suffolk pubs played oblivious to borders, it was a Greene King sponsored League as I recall.
Games were played on a Wednesday evening and we had 6 singles games followed by 3 doubles matches and the evenings took too long to be fair.
we had all kinds of weird tables, some threadbare, very few were slow, most were too fast.
here are the basics
a red skittle in front of the 200 (lose your total score)
a black skittle in front of the 50s and the 100 (lose your break)
we used one red worth double and 6 whites.
we put the red on the D and the white in front
no rules on the break shot, if you could get the ball past a skittle more than 3-4 times you were a jammy bastard! infact most people bottled the first break at say 600-1,000 just to put the result out of sight and the pressure on the other (away) player. game over.
when the gate dropped you had to say you had heard it or the scorer did.
you didn't change anything you did, you just played down. the final ball had to touch a cushion (anywhere) before it went down.
about 30% of the league went for a 200/400 finish - especially the home team but it wasn't compulsory.
the game was about splitting the balls towards the top of the table so they got there with equal strength and you had double the chance of getting one down. you took your 50s a lot and the reverse 50s, 100s and even 200s were a good call but in all honesty, a league game favoured extreme caution and all the middle aged players stuck to their 1,350 and it either won then the game or it didn't.
you always played the red off 'the inside' of a white so that it would find the middle '30' for a 60 count.
we always played with skittles and thought that only 3-pin was played with mushrooms. so much so that I don't recall entering a pub anywhere, seeing a mushroom and not counting 1-2-3! however, I never played as far south as Sudbury! the furthest South we went was to the Lavenham Angel and the Stansfield Compasses (five miles North of Sudbury).
I have no idea how old our league was but I have two mates who I can extract a little from them on how it may have folded etc.
we didn't have a captains cup, we just had an annual knock-out where around 6 pubs had 8 players (pre-drawn) turn up and play down to one that evening. then they met at 'the finals'. the same went for the doubles: you got drawn at a pool pub and went there with your partner and did the same.
all the finals were over just the one game, the reason being that as it was a neutral table, you were lucky to get the break shot more than once usually leaving one ball up right from the off and maybe not doing a break shot again on your turn.
it appears the biggest difference between our league and the Sudbury League would be:
red on the D, white out front
Skittles not Mushrooms.
we had to break off from the centre of the D but after that (I think) it could be anywhere on the D.
hopefully, with this being a new thread, someone will join the website and fill in on the histiory as this is a league OF THE PAST and should be committed to record I feel.
regards
Taffy
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Nov 22, 2016 17:36:27 GMT
the Lidgate Star didn't have a table last summer. i will enquire! yes, the people i spoke to were the gastro type.
the Denston Plummers arms is now most definately a residential property.
The afflek arms didn't have a table a month ago.
The George & Dragon Snailwell doesn't have a table and hasn't for 10 years i reckon.
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 11:49:59 GMT
Daveuk1 has sent me the following pic taken on his mobile:  It shows the (rather impressive) "ALFRED SAMS INTERLEAGUE RUNNERS-UP" TROPHY and is tucked away in the corner of a pub (not sure which one, Dave ? Close up scrutiny of the engraved shields shows the following recipients: 2000 Sudbury 1999 Newmarket and Bury St Edmunds 1996 Marshland 1995 Newmarket 1993 South Holland 1992 Sudbury 1991 South Holland 1990 South Holland 1989 South Holland Mention of 'Marshland' has prompted me to do some further research which I will log on the "Gedney Hill Snookerette" thread. Regarding the history of 4-Pin in general, it seems fair to assume that the last time the Alfred SAMS Interleague trophy was fought for was in 2000 as Sudbury hold the runners-up trophy. Dave thinks that Sudbury's league champions were put forward for the annual challenge rather than picking a composite side, but what would be good now would be to track down the Winners Shield so that the event can be re-commissioned. It is quite possible that the last winners were Newmarket and BSE League and at least proof of their existence as recently as 1999 is now in evidence. Dave has promised to have a word with the likes of Graham Rolfe, Del Atton and Pete Lillee who might actually have taken part in the 2000 challenge, and may remember who their opponents were. |
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taffy
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Post by taffy on Jan 20, 2017 12:54:42 GMT
Hello Tommo
You've had this info from m just 8 weeks ago mate! you getttin forgetful or what? do you remember me popping over for the second time to the Sudbury area and playing in three pubs? well it is the first one of the day and you commented on it then!
just to repeat, Bourne isn't going to be the league that won, a look at a map clearly shows that South Holland IS the Gedney Hill mafia.
I'm fairly sure that that sheild was in the Brook Inn at gt. Cornard just outside Sudbury. the first pub I visited.
regards
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 13:14:55 GMT
When have I recently claimed that S.Holland was Bourne ? Mention of 'Marshland' has prompted me to do some further research which I will log on the "Gedney Hill Snookerette" thread. My first conclusion, rightly or wrongly, is that the shrinking violet now known as "Fenland Snookerette" has existed in previous guises as "South Holland", "Marshland", "Gedney Hill and District" - all snookerette, and all essentially covering the same area. |
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taffy
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Posts: 374
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Post by taffy on Jan 22, 2017 10:58:14 GMT
from my introductory thrtead tommo: "ely-cambs-4-pin only". here: barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/19130/ely-cambs-4-pinHi Taffy, The Inter-regional 4-Pin shield you found at The Brook is of particular interest, especially mention of South Holland - another lost league ? We have found evidence of the existence of one other in S. Lincolnshire but that was the Bourne & District League (in South Kesteven) but they had an All-England membership so must have been 3-Pin. Regards, tommo it isn't a criminal offence tommo, you are allowed to think you know without going to your Bibliogrophy library once per evening!!!! Taffy |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 20:34:54 GMT
From this week's Newmarket Journal:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 12:08:41 GMT
List of Newmarket and Bury St Edmunds former venues ( NB The Newmarket & BSE 4-Pin League no longer in existence)
Archived venues
Tharp Arms, 46 High Street, Chippenham, Ely, Cambs CB7 5PR
George & Dragon, 31 The Street, Snailwell, Newmarket CB8 7LX
Bushell, Market Street, Newmarket CB8 8EE
Marquis of Granby, 65 Granby Street, Newmarket CB8 8EZ
Plumber's Arms, Wickham Street, Denston, Newmarket CB8 8PB
Affleck Arms, Brookside, Dalham, Newmarket CB8 8TG
Beehive, 195 The Street, Kirtling, Newmarket CB8 9PD
Red Lion, 214 The Street, Kirtling, Newmarket CB8 9PD
Star, The Street, Lidgate, Newmarket CB8 9PP
Reindeer, 62 The Street, Saxon Street, Newmarket CB8 9RS
Rose & Crown( formerly Crown), 20 North Street, Hundon, Sudbury CO10 8ED
Compasses, High Street, Stansfield, Sudbury CO10 8LN (NB Former Sudbury League venue)
Old Shepherd & Dog, The Street, Poslingford, Suffolk CO10 8RA
Angel, Market Place, Lavenham, Suffolk CO10 9QZ
Greyhound, The Green, Flempton, Bury St Edmunds IP28 6EL
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