preparing A.N. Other table

[alanturner]

Jan 10, 2017 9:43:37 GMT taffy said:

Hello

things going on with Mr Other's table are:

we start with a question:
1) has anyone ever cut up or drilled slate? i say drilled but that is probably the wrong term? it is just that there are old snooker table slates for sale really cheap and I wondered if they can be cut to shape and then the holes put in?

comments on slate would be appreciated!

2) recently I have had the table tilted towards the player in order to give the ball a good roll off the top cushion. this works nicely and the player can play a softer shot for what they want. a re-cloth would be better but we await this?

3) I purchased a set of Snooker balls this weew. I have played for the first 5 weeks with 7 whites of which one had polca dots marked on it with felt tip. now I have two proper reds and was able place the two whites in a box and replace them. the weight of all the balls is - luckily 90-95 grammes so happy days!

4) Alan Taylor mad me a beautiful set of skittles and then I read of the Sudbury leagues rules and noted the base of the skittles could be 18mm not 16.5mm as they came. so Alan made me a second set and they are 10mm shorter and 18mm across the base. You can hit them a little harder and the whole skittle moves rather than falls. as i'm within the rules I feel that this is a good move.

5) the breal shot is nearly impossible, either one stays up and down or either or both, all on a 'hair's breadth' of change. the table is on the maximum playing length of 143cm so maybe this has something to do with it?

6) after several weeks of use and 30 games per week, yes 30, the clock mechanism is better than ever with the oiling it got. so sometimes you have to wait!

7) the 'quill' was going ten to the dozen and the longest a game was lasting at full stretch was 8.30. after a word from tommo, it transpired that the quill should have a weight on it and this slows the speed down of the quill. so i fitted a block connector that are used in auto electrics and placed it the correct distance. the game now lasts just under 18 minutes which is deemed the right time by 3-pin tommo.

8) the balls were BANGING into the drop board so i changed the hardened congealed rubber mess for CONDENSED FOAM RUBBER 10mm thick and it's brilliant! no noise and no mess, far better than felt.

9) the trough had sponges in each bay but after years of lack of use the sponge was being smashed and then the balls hit the board here as well. more CONDENSED FOAM RUBBER and i can hear a pin drop while the balls are coming back.

10) next problem, even when made, i think this had 4mm ply and the balls dropping in the 100 and 200 really 'bangs' so much so the gate goes a few seconds early when the ball goes down the 100. I need to either put thicker cloth on the runs or as i suspect use screws instead of nails to hold the ball guides/runners - its these that rattle!

that is all!!!!

regards
Taffy

Regarding supply of Skittles or Mushrooms , just let me know your requirements , height , width , weight , colour I am sure I we can sort something out quickly for anyone at a lower rate than ebay

Alan

[taffy]

Alan
did you get my email about the the hybrid 'mushtittles'?

Dave that sounds great! I'd like to think that i will, cheers! but is that 150 reliable? I'm sure the white in the 50 is good but that red in the 50 is a long, long ol shot isn't it!

Taffy

[daveuk1]

Taffy
The red up in the corner and back in the 50 is the break shot every bay horse player goes for,even if it stops short it's there for the next shot, cue ball up the top and back to knock the red down

[alanturner]

Jan 14, 2017 9:32:09 GMT taffy said:

Alan
did you get my email about the the hybrid 'mushtittles'?

Dave that sounds great! I'd like to think that i will, cheers! but is that 150 reliable? I'm sure the white in the 50 is good but that red in the 50 is a long, long ol shot isn't it!

Taffy

Taffy

Had no broadband for 6 days thanks to talktalk/bt , So send again .......

Like the  descriptive name ' Mushtittles '............Brilliant

Alanturner

[daveuk1]

I think the middle few letters some it up

"shit"

Jan 14, 2017 14:46:04 GMT daveuk1 said:

I think the middle few letters some it up

Yeah, take them away and you get.........

[taffy]

i think we all need to stick to the day job after this little lot! so they are 'Mutleys', the owner is a cheating sod bent on winning at all costs - sounds perfect then!

on another subject for a moment, as this is a thread about my table......
I have drawn a line 30mm from the leatherette parallel across the table which now allows the diagonal shot out of the top left and right corner with a touch of "side". this is the "side" that I appear to have no control over but now it will be a skill to get something in off the 200 hole. the break shot is for some reason still a bastard but that's the skill! the worst bit is the 200 shot which changes with every shot and the balls either take the skittle clean out or go past the hole.....

my hand now places comfortably on the Leatherette which is a bonus.

as this table hasn't got a slate, I am toying with getting a used snooker or pool slate and working it thanks to advice from Sav. or I could put support wood underneath and shim the table up using steel shims. I happen to have piles of .010" shims laying around, that's 1/4mm to you.

regards

Taffy

[taffy]

here is a diagram of the faults with my table. I stole it off Google Images and it says 'Norwich league' so errrrr!!! thanks whoever!

are they faults (IMO) with my table or the rules? well this one is about the table not the rules of course!
1.the corner diagonal shot is coming back between the 200 and the D, wiping out the 200 skittle.
A.I have moved the D forwards as it is drawn place on the baize and not Leatherette yet (I haven't drawen the new D here) and I intend to bring the back cushion forwards so I don't catch the 10 hole. then re-assess. So D forwads and back cushion back toward the D.

2. a ball has gone past the 50 hole and is against the side, the cue ball catches it, crosses to the 100 and just wipes out the 100 every single time.
A. move the 50 forwards making the break shot tougher but the 100 shot easier, then the cue ball will cross closer to the 100 hole.

3. the object ball is difficult to differentiate between the 100 and 200 hole on its return
A. the 100 is staying as it picks up some lovely balls but with the 200 hole 2"(50mm) further back we are seperating the holes. Then also, if I ever put a new top on the table I will potentially move the holes away from the middle 30 hole. so away and also the gap between the 5-holes and the back cushion will be closer. Note how I have moved the top 20 and 10 hole in the diagram below.

4. the return 200 is difficult from between the 10 and 20 holes
spread the 20 away and the 10 away while going towards the back cushion keeping the corner shot (No.1 here) still available.


so the above gives you an idea. the thick black line is because I am removing the leatherette cushion at the front of the table which is 20mm wide. The side and back cushions can all come forwards then 10-15 or even 20mm and a strip of wood placed behind the top cushion to test it.

regards

Taffy

I'll have a go at answering 1) for you Taffy.

1.the corner diagonal shot is coming back between the 200 and the D, wiping out the 200 skittle.

You have a jolly big D there, and you are allowed to place the ball anywhere within it !
Try putting the ball on the extreme left of the D, and then aiming as close as you can to the left of the left hand 10 hole (ie as far away from the corner of the table as this will allow).

The cue ball should then come back to the 50 rather than wiping out the 200.

If this doesn't work then you must have what we call a Narrow table: I remember that when playing on the Bay Horse some of my favourite shots, such as a shot in the corner to pot a 10 and 20, weren't possible.

tommo

Ball in position 2) (4-pin only)

Aim mid-way between the 10 and 20 hole whilst applying bags of left-hand-side to the cue ball.
If you deliver the shot with a nice follow-through, the ball should veer over to the left once it's hit the back cushion, pick up that ball in position 2) and go in-off.

Ball in position 3) (4-Pin only)

Don't be greedy, just pot the balls into the 20 and 30. You get a gilt-edged 70 or 80 points without the risks associated with a 100 (double-kiss or ball catching the peg coming back)


Ball in position 4) (4-Pin only)

Go off the cushion first with loads of top spin. You can whack it as hard as you like and the cushion will take the sting out of the shot before sending both balls off at such an angle as will give a great chance to pot both balls. One will hit two cushions on the way which will both amaze and be daunting for your opponent !

[taffy]

thanks for the suggestions Tommo! other than the being Greedy bit, i recognised everything you said...but me? Greedy!

PLAYING SOLO. well I've started getting 1,000 with nearly every decent effort. I can get 1,500 twice a game....and lose it! and just recently I've been building 2,000 breaks and my record now stands at 2,430.

so last night in an hour, I had unscrewed the cushions, removed the leather bar at the front, slipped it in behind the top cushion and squeezed the three cushions back in. I had a quick knock about. Then first thing before work this morning I drilled and screwed everything in.

first thing I've noticed is that the corner shot misses the (10) hole by 10mm. so I have brought the back cushion up by 20mm and improved the diagonal shot by I reckon 11-12mm. the shot between the 30 and 20s is the same (bloody hard) but the shot twixt the 10s-20s is greatly improved! How much space do i need though? the backline is looking a little cluttered. when they don't go down.

I will play with the present set-up for a while and have some strips of wood ready to slip in if I think 20mm is too much.

It also means that if I do alter the holes in the next top I have, I can spread them out. at a guess, more shots will be on but the ball will fly out of more holes and disappear! It has to be 'a balance' but I want to be able to go for the shots!

another idea is to go back to 90mm behind the top 5 holes BUT to put the two x 10 holes back some 10mm allowing the corner shot, this will allow shot 4 more easily as well.

I noted that my top is 20mm thick. so a piece of slate that size IN THE FUTURE is what I shall want?

I have bought 1M x 1.27M of a black Rexine substitute from 'Woolies' in Market Deeping near Peterbogrough. it was £12 plus £12 to send in a roll. Black is the only colour available.

I now fancy sticking to the non-slate top and drilling new holes as per my design/ideas.

did anyone say what the "slate" is made from? what is the truest surface Sav? MDF someone said? surely there's an alloy or plastic substitute that at 20mm thick can be relied on to stay truly flat? nothing man made?

all in all, happy so far. I will loop back to playing on standard tables soon and see what I feel the merits are of the standard game of 4-pin. the softness, deftness of touch needed etc.

It isn'a narrow table Tommo, it is a wide table. I will put a photo up soon of the 200/100/50/50 holes.

Tommo
If I put a ruler across the top edge of the two 50 holes and measure to the nearest lip of the 100 hole it is 202mm. if I measure from the nearest (the other) edge back to the 200 hole it is 122mm. could you check this on yours please? or anyone with a good table (Sams or Sams for instance)?

they are meant to be in a square aren't they? well 'roughly' anyway?

regards

Taffy

Jan 24, 2017 14:32:38 GMT taffy said:

Tommo
If I put a ruler across the top edge of the two 50 holes and measure to the nearest lip of the 100 hole it is 202mm. if I measure from the nearest (the other) edge back to the 200 hole it is 122mm. could you check this on yours please?
Taffy

Hi Taffy, have done a measurement and the distance between the edge of the 50s and the edge of the 200 is 10 and a half inches. The distance between the edge of the 50 and the edge of the 100 is 12 and a quarter inches. The "flattened diamond" configuration between 200-50s-100 is indicative of a wide table. Sorry my measurements are in feet and inches, I'm an Imperialist !

Rexine is a good substitute for leatherette, though fully expecting Sav to disagree.....

[taffy]

Hi Tommo
I think you went directly from a 50 to the 100 and 200. I laid a ruler across the edge of both 50 holes, you know, laterally across the table and then measured again from the middle forwards and back using the nearest edge of the 50 back or forwards.

I reckon you've only got one ruler, from school and it's still got your name on it and 'class IV'. inches rule hey!

the stuff I got is actually called "Non-Stretch Vynide"

cheers

Taffy

You've got me there, Taffy. I have a pint of milk or half a dozen eggs and wouldn't have it any other way.
I walk miles with my dog rather than kilometres.
And yes, I get by with the same 18 inch ruler that has served me well for years.

[taffy]

Hey Tommo
get that form 4 ruler out again please!


does this help? inches are fine. but perhaps not "the nearest inch".




as for the cushion, look at the left of photo and you can see the leather strip now in behind the cushion. this brought the back cushion forwards the 20mm. the gap twixt edge of holes and back cush is down from 90mm to 70mm.

how is it going?
Good
even more elaborate and extreme shots which is good,

neutral
any ball travelling laterally along the back will come to a hole. there's goos and bad in this

worse
an angles shot is based on several features and the further off the cushion the more accurate the shot can be angled. so having the back cushion up doesn't actually help this. if you work on the basis of hitting a 'V' shot near the top to get one of two balls in then it is 'impossible' to get them both in, the natural angle has gone. if you split the balls, only one can go in.

a ball that is in the gap, while the shot back to the 200 is playable, it is now too close to the back cushion to get a a true angle guide. so yes, the shot is on but the accuracy suffers. effectively, it is the balls just infront of the back 5 that still make the best shot. the ones between them lack accuracy. yet when infront of the back 5 you would most often settle for the split shot and two down.

this is first observations. about 7-9 games in.

Taffy

Taffy has invented "Slide Rule Billiards" !

Distance between 100 and 200 (near edge to near edge) 14 and a half inches.
Distance between the two 50's (near edge to near edge) 19 and a quarter inches.

That's all you're getting !

[taffy]

well Tommo, I'm out by 3mm sideways and that is the difference in the distance the 50 is from one cushion compared to the other (Sam's it ain't!) and length ways I'm 9mm short. tell me, you can see my diamond, is it similar to yours? are the 50s forwards or back? just a guess/rough observation.

one for Dave this..and you Tommo et al...

If the 50s are close it is harder to split at the break into the 50s
if the front spot is well forwards it is hard to split at the break

so if the front break spots is close and the 50s are away it is just encouraging the split break shot in 4 pin right?

Taffy

Yep your config looks okay for a wide table. Diamond is flattened towards the 200 hole. End pockets need to be 3" from the back cush and 50 pockets 3.5" from the side cush.

On long narrow tables all the pockets are moved further down making the break shot that much more difficult. Increasing the distance between the D and the break spot makes it easier. All-England Rules give the dimensions for this and allow a tolerance, most of our tables seem to be set up on the extremity of what is the permitted distance apart.

Hope this helps.

[taffy]

i'll have a look at the rule book! thanks, and yes always helpful. initially, my thoughts are that the further away the D, the easier to split the break shot into them...will have to think that one through......

i can't recall if it is your rules or Sudbury's (I must have a look) but the break spot position is set as being halfway between the front of the D and the nearest edge of the 200 (I think?) but will check.

Taffy

[taffy]

I've looked at the Rules sent to me in a doc named 'Barclays' and they appear to be the AEBBA rules. but there's no mention of the dimensions of the pockets you talk of Tommo? can I get a set of the rules you've used?

My top pockets are 1/4" (5mm really) of being 3" from the top cushion so i'm nearly there.

4-pin and 3-pin have totally different break spots. they are about 3" further apart or 40%. plus I haven't seen why skittles and mushrooms sit the same distance from the edge of a hole creating a different game. again, I didn't see this written.

Taffy

Jan 30, 2017 8:31:31 GMT taffy said:

I've looked at the Rules sent to me in a doc named 'Barclays' and they appear to be the AEBBA rules. but there's no mention of the dimensions of the pockets you talk of Tommo? can I get a set of the rules you've used?

Available to view if you visit the AEBBA Section and choose "AEBBA Rules". These say 2013 but are in the process of being updated, any recent changes not affecting the playing dimensions.

Jan 30, 2017 8:31:31 GMT taffy said:

4-pin and 3-pin have totally different break spots. they are about 3" further apart or 40%. plus I haven't seen why skittles and mushrooms sit the same distance from the edge of a hole creating a different game. again, I didn't see this written.

Although 4-Pin or Snookerette has been around more or less from the beginning, the 3-Pin and 4-Pin versions have always existed independently of each other. The first real "coming together" was not until recently (2013): the First East Anglian Open staged by Norwich. 4-Pin is completely autonimous, as are the other Associate Members the Channel Islands who play all shots from middle of the D. This is the extent of our influence:

20) A.E.B.B.A. recognises and welcomes, but does not administer, the four pin version of Bar Billiards. The rules and playing conditions for the Four Pin variant of Bar Billiards are those currently in force for the East Anglian Four Pin Open.

[taffy]

well I've got Alan's 'Mushtittles' here and they are lovely - again! yes, photos will follow soon but after playing with them for a week I can say they make a lovely difference.

they are waisted skittles so the waisdt is like a mushroom but it is a skittle! they are 5 grammes lighter than my huge fat skittles so they're 25g not 30. they take about the same whack to knock over but of course sit further from the edge of the hole due to their waistline!

when I knock one over - it's because the bloody ball wasn't going down the bloody hole! DEAD SIMPLE!

The ball always lifts them away, goes by and the fall down behind the ball rather like the telegraph poles in a certain war fil Tommo! who's calling Danny Boy?

the game really is sweet and I broke my record today with a 2,600 break.
can't wait to get a slate, some rubber, the cloth from Sav and to upholster this table! but at the moment, it's a great game.

You shouls ALL try the game with a pink as well as the red.
pink swops with red as the red goes down
only one of the two on the table except when:
red is last ball in trough
the pink was used as a spare white as it was the only ball left, "white" was declared, ball played and valued as a white, after THAT shot it sits on the table as a red.

the game is faster with non-stop reds flowing.

at the end, if a red is in the trough as the gate drops, IT STAYS out of it all and is thee last shot. all other balls countdown as normal.

Taffy

Hope that with all this practice, Taffy, you're not neglecting Alison.

Playing with yourself too much isn't good, you know.

[taffy]

here's a photo of Alan's Mushtittles, they are lovely aren't they! I'd prefer it if they looked more like a naked woman but hell, I'll never get my way....

I reckon there's a big future for the one at the back!


I can see it now....a bit like Rollerball at the end: "Tonight, there are no rules!" The Mushroom cannot be knocked down! indeed, will NOT be knocked down! killing is allowed....

also here is a 15 gramme and a 10 gramme skittle I shall have a look at for kicks!

at present, the 4 Mushtittles fall over toward the ball, which is a weird sensation like a car park gate coming down after a vehicle.

Taffy

[taffy]

Well i'm in for the pound now! I've just bought a clean 20mm thick slate from a junior snooker table at leek, staffs on Sunday and the next stage is cutting and drilling (shall we call it boring) the new holes on the slate.

so, has anyone experience of sawing slate or drilling/boring it please?

If not, i am the new guinnea pig! luckily i have an area i can prctice on around the outside. I guess fireplace and firehearth people would be a good place to ask?

I need to know what size hole cutter to get and how much oversize it might drill? I THINK I recall Sav saying what size somewhere but not a 'drill size'? I'm thinking that they don't cut a clean hole so I need to ask?

regards

Taffy

[alanturner]

Feb 22, 2017 9:59:33 GMT taffy said:

Well i'm in for the pound now! I've just bought a clean 20mm thick slate from a junior snooker table at leek, staffs on Sunday and the next stage is cutting and drilling (shall we call it boring) the new holes on the slate.

so, has anyone experience of sawing slate or drilling/boring it please?

If not, i am the new guinnea pig! luckily i have an area i can prctice on around the outside. I guess fireplace and firehearth people would be a good place to ask?

I need to know what size hole cutter to get and how much oversize it might drill? I THINK I recall Sav saying what size somewhere but not a 'drill size'? I'm thinking that they don't cut a clean hole so I need to ask?

regards

Taffy

Hi Taffy
Just use a diamond disc on 4.5 grinder , clamp a guide bar to the slate (put wood under the clamp feet)
Support the slate on some polystyrene that will stop it vibrating , keep the cut wet use a sponge and a jug of water or a slow trickle from a hose pipe (2 people is better)
Slate is soft and will cut easily .
Wash it off after , clean and dry
Mark the hole positions , if you use pistol a pistol drill to drill a pilot hole their is a danger of ' running off ' and not keeping it square , no matter how careful you are , you might drill 3 or 4 perfectly but then the next one goes of centre............agh !! slate is scrapped and you will be swearing !!
A pillar drill adapted to fit on metal plate that you can clamp to slate ensures a square cutting angle or better still a magnetic base girder drill.
Use a tipped  hollow/sample boring cutter( the problem with these is they do not have a centre drill so alignment is crucial .   So a circular brick cutter with a center dill ( just like a hole saw) is probably better .
It might be a good idea to first use a lathe centre bit to start the hole , followed up by drilling right through with a drill the size of the hole saw centre , again use plenty of water .
Slow speed , steady feed (pressure but not rubbing) it needs to cut .plenty of water , it will cut easily it is soft .
Do not file the edges of the holes after boring them , just scrap around to remove the sharp edges , you can easily get carried away with a file or sandpaper for that matter , slate is soft .
If you get any chipping or break away around the edge of the holes , this can easily be filled with resin , but again if you need to do this be very careful how you dress it back , the resin will be harder than the slate so do not sand , you will create hollows . Just lay a file flat or a large wet stone and very gently smooth it level.
A friend of mine cuts slate 20mm dry with a Stihl saw and has no great problems except for lots and lots of dust , again a guide bar is essential .
When you mark it for size and when you mark the hole position , before cutting CHECK THEM then CHECK THEM AGAIN ,
It may be a good idea when you mark the length and width to check the diagonals , if these do not match +/- 1mm then you are out of square somewhere .
You got to loose your self in music , you only get one chance , once in a life time  .......oh no that's Eminen , sorry

Anyway Taffy , that should give you something to think about !!!!!!
Good Luck

PS .....If you  want I can measure a hole on my bare table top , then you will know the exact size ???




 

[taffy]

ey up our Al!
I spotted this after an email from you and I put my Q's there. just need to get this Grinderette guide sorted in my head as I've never seen one before. the rest I got and I think you knda said that you swop a pilot drill bit on the hole cutter for a short piece of bar?

cheers

Taffy

[taffy]

well Paradon rings are only sold as the super big Jersey size rings now so I need to find a new source for them?

any ideas left (other than my CNC idea?)

cheers!

Taffy

[daveuk1]

Super big sounds better than easy drop

See you in a few weeks