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Post by bigtj on Mar 27, 2017 13:12:00 GMT
A great weekend, and thanks to all that worked hard to make it happen.
The Bay Horse piss up was brilliant and a few sore heads the next day, our partners were made as welcome as the players. The 4 pin Open was great fun and so good to see so many looking for heir 17 minutes of glory on the table but having a great laugh at the same team. Good to meet our hosts and being encouraged by them and shown shots to play. Must say watching the pure 4 pin players how talented they are at their version of our great game, watching some of the shot selection and execution was brilliant. Also good to see so may young players taking part, we were there from Wednesday to today and the pubs were all so welcoming and proper pubs.
Definitely will be back next year.
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Post by daveuk1 on Mar 27, 2017 15:58:45 GMT
Wasn't aware of a problem Keith, there is a set of rules, agreed by Norfolk and Suffolk, the aebba were also sent a copy before Suffolk hosted the second (first one in Suffolk) EA open, this is the first year we've forgotten to leave a set by each table
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Post by milko on Mar 27, 2017 16:35:12 GMT
Wasn't aware of a problem Keith, there is a set of rules, agreed by Norfolk and Suffolk, the aebba were also sent a copy before Suffolk hosted the second (first one in Suffolk) EA open, this is the first year we've forgotten to leave a set by each table Tracey played a shot before the ball from the previous shot had gone down so I called a foul but she said it was the rule in your league. Curt went to the desk and they said it was a foul so she accepted (but not happy) the decision.
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Post by daveuk1 on Mar 27, 2017 19:42:01 GMT
Rules are, it is a foul to play a shot while any ball is still in motion on the table.
So sorry for the confusion
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Post by milko on Mar 28, 2017 3:57:18 GMT
Cheers Dave, no problem. One other thing that surprised me was at the presentation the Plate Finalists were the last things to be presented and not the Main event! I'm sure Nigel must have had a long speech ready for the finale.... Apologies if my memory has just played tricks on me.
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Post by daveuk1 on Mar 28, 2017 6:09:05 GMT
With regards to the presentations, which I cant really remember, it could well of been just the shock of Damian not being in the plate.
I will make sure there is copy of rules available on each table next year. We will discuss any possible rule changes within our committee and post them on here, although the only things that will probably change is I want to use the baulk lines rather than the end of the green stuff and I'm slowly talking others around to agreeing.
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taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Mar 29, 2017 0:32:31 GMT
Can I ask where all the results are on the web site? useless as I am, I can't see them.
we had a nice chat on the way out Dave, we saw the semi's but we'd been there 9-10 hours and I was pooped. we have alternative views on the way it should be done but why not get your three tables out, dust them off and invite everyone up for the weekend and try different experimental rules. then when something is suggested you can say you ran an 'experimental rules' weekend and this will keep Sudbury League at the vanguard of 4-pin rules. otherwise, without saying you've tried it, you might have the decisions prized from your grasp?
maybe a two day job, tables out. I'm thinking of pencilling a new front dot, pins, mushrooms, what you can and can't do with the break.
talented players will always make any kind of break shot repetitive and they will always be the winners because they have the talent and dedication to do a repetitive skill using FMS-Fine Motor Skills.
it always amazes me how sport is the opposite of work? anyone else ever think of that? we value in Athletics: how fast, how high, how far. we think archery is for the girl guides. go to work on a monday and we value a painting, a fine wedding ring, a beautifully sequined dress over hauling 6 tons of chippings on a barrow in under an hour and doing it all day!
life's strange....
anyway, I hope I said that without drawing blood....
results?
Taffy
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2017 10:48:22 GMT
Can I ask where all the results are on the web site? useless as I am, I can't see them. Taffy Hi Taffy, Luke did put the full results up, and they are available to see on this thread, but you will have to go back a page. They will eventually appear on the new AEBBA website, but not yet ! The file has to be converted first to a compatible format and ranking points worked out. Nigel will probably work these out, but might delegate the conversion to me as I did the first four four-pins.
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ozzie
Full Forum Member
the belly is gonna get you
Posts: 162
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Post by ozzie on Mar 29, 2017 20:06:59 GMT
Good evening all, Firstly sorry I am late to the party but just again thanks to all for the organisation of another great weekend at Sudbury I always enjoy the challenge of something different and always feel most welcome when we visit Sudbury normally a couple of times a year. I normally only use the forum to give results etc however I do feel I would just like to make a few points on the rules of the four pin game which I do believe are showing some confusion and are making it difficult to score a game or provoke some comments being made to the scorer as you know I am always willing to score my fair share.
1 . The three times something different rule. My colleagues at Eastbourne and some others believe that if for example you play the break shot and one ball goes in the left hand ten hole and the other goes in the middle 30 hole but on two occasions this goes directly in to the 30 hole and the last time this goes in the same 30 hole but off the back cushion then this is considered something different is this the case because if it is this is not how I would see it and I would have considered it three shots the same something different if you can get the balls into the same pockets three times but in a different way then surely you need a great memory to remember how the balls got there the first two times on top of remembering the different pocket scores for three pinnners which I accept and the speed that some of the top players play at.
2. Waiting to replace pegs till end of break Again with the pace of some players waiting to take their shot you have to think of putting the score up and replacing the pegs on spots whilst a player may be chasing a score and waiting to take their shot especially where games are single legs surely this would be easier and make the game more challenging if these pegs were replaced immediately after being knocked away from their spots as we would all accept that these pegs do move a lot rather than fall I personally saw on several occasions on Saturday where players came to the table and started breaks without all pegs on spots.
3. Waiting for the red ball We all like the excitement of close games and I think this rule again slows a players chase I again saw occasions where this rule was not spotted by the scorer and in fact on two occasions saw the player on the break realise they were not waiting for the red ball and walk away from the table thank you to one of my opponents for their honesty.
4. The baulk line rule This again prevents attacking play if you are in front you just keep running up to the ball and on one occasion I was questioned when scoring why it was a foul shot when one of the balls was lipping the D meaning the next player could not use the whole of the D I believe this confusion is caused by this rule.
Anyway these are just my thoughts for what they are worth if nothing changes I will always support this and all the other events as I love the game and long may it continue.
Regards PO
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Post by daveuk1 on Mar 29, 2017 20:45:14 GMT
Interesting. Our rules have been kept as basic as possible.
For us playing the same break shot means potting the balls down the same holes, ie red down the 30 and white down the 10, it doesn't matter how the balls get there.
If a player is lucky or skillful enough to move a peg he should be allowed to benefit from it. I personally always replace the pegs at the end of someones break before I put their score up and I know most of the Suffolk lot do the same
Our rule clearly state the red ball must be used when ever it is available. It is a rule that has been in use for over fifty years and one I don't think we will ever change. If waiting an extra second for the red to return effects a players chances of winning then surely waiting for a peg to be replaced back on its spot during a break also slows the game down.
The rules for the open clearly state that a ball is deemed out of play if when viewed from directly above any part of the ball obscures the baulk or the D ie overhangs and the player who put the ball there has committed a foul shot and loses their break and the ball is removed from the playing surface and placed in the ball tray.
Our rules have been deliberately kept simple, this is after all a pub game and we think players understand we try to play in the spirit of the game and sports person like way.
I do think our committee may agree to a change in our rules so we use the baulk lines for future opens. In most of our league games if a ball returns that far the next player will simply play to knock the ball into baulk while the cue ball goes up the table regardless of the score
Copies of our rules have been posted on this site in the past and copies are always available on the day, in fact due to a technical mistake (I forgot to put them out) this is the first year a copy hasn't been put on each table.
I am sorry for any confusion and hope it didn't spoil the day
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ozzie
Full Forum Member
the belly is gonna get you
Posts: 162
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Post by ozzie on Mar 29, 2017 20:55:35 GMT
Hi Dave, As already said I love the day and event and thank you for your clarification on the balls into the same pocket rule that is how I would score it anyway but as mentioned my Eastbourne colleagues had a different interpretation on it. Regards PO
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Post by Chris_Sav on Mar 30, 2017 7:59:32 GMT
One Sudbury rule I quite like is the baulk rule. I have seen players play a ball close to the AEBBA baulk line which may have hit the cushion over the baulk line and come back into play - a foul shot. It is VERY difficult to judge whether the ball hit the cushion over the line.
Using the edge of the slate and the black stuff as the baulk there is virtually no doubt.
It will be interesting to see what AEBBA come up with on their compromise set of four pin rules, but these cannot be adopted until the next A.G.M. as no proposal to amend the four pin rules happened at the A.G.M. (only an A.O.B. discussion which has no binding effect). The knock on effect of any change to the four pin rules is that Suffolk are obliged to adopt them under the AEBBA rules governing their membership and about which I am sure they will not be happy. A tricky subject!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 8:31:55 GMT
IMHO our (AEBBA)'s relationship with Suffolk BBA should be akin to that with Jersey, in terms of associate membership.
I cannot recall any overtures to Channel Islands to modify their off-the-spot rules: When we stage an off-the-spot competition over here we do our own little tweaks, but when we play over there, they are the oracle. Should be exactly the same with 4-Pin.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Mar 30, 2017 12:24:02 GMT
One Sudbury rule I quite like is the baulk rule. I have seen players play a ball close to the AEBBA baulk line which may have hit the cushion over the baulk line and come back into play - a foul shot. It is VERY difficult to judge whether the ball hit the cushion over the line. Using the edge of the slate and the black stuff as the baulk there is virtually no doubt. It will be interesting to see what AEBBA come up with on their compromise set of four pin rules, but these cannot be adopted until the next A.G.M. as no proposal to amend the four pin rules happened at the A.G.M. (only an A.O.B. discussion which has no binding effect). The knock on effect of any change to the four pin rules is that Suffolk are obliged to adopt them under the AEBBA rules governing their membership and about which I am sure they will not be happy. A tricky subject! Eastbourne will take on whatever AEBBA rules are put in place as there should only be one set of rules which we all play to, The important theme for me is that the Rules are fair to both players and increase the fun factor for all. We all have the opportunity to propose a change the rules a the following agm anyway, so lets not get too upset about what Dave comes up with, we have to start somewhere
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taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Mar 30, 2017 12:54:50 GMT
if we agree that any break shot is an excellent repetitive skill and to be admired, that it isn't going away nor should it then I bring up two ditties: the first is the value of that break shot in relation to the game. 150 is the value and not that i would stop this skill but adjust the rules so that it is devalued and therefore the points in open play and the risks taken balance up.
for instance if you see a red next to the 50, it is driven through with the cue ball for say 10 & 30 son as to get the break going again. everything is aimed at getting back to the break. if one ball went up the table for say 10-20 and the red was the cue ball, you get 110 (Newmarket League) or as is: it is worth 70.
i guess nothing is going to make people take risks if the BALANCE of the reward is not worth it. the two need balancing up as the current break shot is not healthy for a varied game and wider appeal. having said that, the best are taking on two pins whereas the 70/110 shot is only one pin and I can do that one!!!! so if I can do it regularly, Nigel Senior is going to do it behind his back! oh....mmmm???
so the next one was two skittles with their fat waistlines (nearly 7mm different) and narrow bases, take the shot but take the risk?
one last point, the AEBBA rules are (#74) that a pin should have a base of 1.5-1.8cm but I'm told we were using 21-22mm? this extra stability and waisted stem makes the double break easier. reducing players to 70 from 150 would help the table players come back at the breakers....or am I just dreaming...
i'll get my coat!
Taffy
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Post by daveuk1 on Mar 30, 2017 14:28:58 GMT
Tommo, Suffolk pay their affiliation fees.
It seems the one rule we were considering changing ie using the baulk lines instead of the end of the green may not be so popular with sum.
I am sure I've read in the minutes from the last agm that it was proposed and seconded that the rules used for any alternative rules 4 pin tournament would those that are used for the EA Open, therefore I would expect to be playing to those rules in the Northants 4 pin.
Suffolk will be prepared to listen to suggestions but the EA Open has run successfully for five years and if necessary I feel Suffolk may go it alone as if we use narrow tables we won't be complying with the AEBBA rules anyway
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Post by chrishaynes (R.I.P.) on Mar 30, 2017 20:09:06 GMT
Well I for one, am quite happy with how the ea open is played, for some of us,its a weekend away, meet up with our friends from Sudbury, have a laugh, if anything,the billiards is secondary! lets hope Dave can get the 8narrow tables for next year!!!!!!
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Post by Chris on Mar 30, 2017 22:46:54 GMT
Dear Dave
I would hope that you and all of the 4 pin players in Sudbury just continue with your OWN RULES.
I enter the game as it is different, when I enter I agree to abide by your rules. If I manage to get both balls down from the break spot into the 50 pockets then well done me or anyone else that does it too. I then have to change pockets if I do it 3 times (in my dreams) If I don't then so be it.
I am fed up with people trying to change rules to suit what they think is their ideal.
If you came to Portsmouth then the black would count at all times if knocked over, regardless of whether the white went first - you play our league, then you play by our rules.
Please leave all as it is - change nothing. When I play your tables I abide by your rules !!!
I find watching any great 3 pin player knocking up over 10k boring - I totally admire them but unless it is me doing it ( I wish ) I find it boring to watch... I enter the 4 pin under YOUR rules fascinating as apart from some very skilful 3 pin players rare breaks of over 1k or 2k are seen, so much table play for all is on offer over the weekend.
It beggars belief to me that anyone suggests rule changes to a county and their traditional rules.
Please think carefully - many of us just love the game that 4 pin gives us under your established rules.
Agree with Sav re the Northants it should this year be held according to 4 pin Suffolk rules as they are recognised by the AEBBA and nothing was formally changed at the AGM.
Also cheesed that the 4 pin at Northants is not recognised as a major tournament and I believe that the AEBBA Officers and committee should decide what tournaments hold ranking points.
Thanks Chris
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taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Mar 31, 2017 7:45:24 GMT
wow!!!
there's some weird buggers on here!
I'll back off only because somebody just turned this from a chat into a full scale raving war!!!!
peace bro!
Taffy
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Post by Chris on Mar 31, 2017 20:46:43 GMT
Thank you - Suffolk can now get on with continuing their great tradition of Four Pin as it is.
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