1 League!

[lloydy]

Thanks Glen, a Horsham board at last!

And congrats to Ian on your new roll.

We're down to 1 league now after losing numerous teams and a lot of players over years (including myself albeit temporarily) and I'm sure this is a problem across the country. I don't have the answers, but does anyone have any experience of a league increasing in numbers? If so, how?

It will be sad to see a league that use to be the largest in Sussex merge with another. Or worse - fold! ???

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

KT's method was to go around brow beating landlords into getting teams up and running !
I don't know how equal the teams are arranged but another method of stimulating the league if there is a large difference between a few teams and the rest is to split it in effect into two leagues but still play each other. So you keep the number of games up but give a chance to lesser strength teams to have achance of winning their section. That way if you pick up another lesser team they feel less out of their depth than they would in one section or league.
Hope I explained that ok, ie Section 1 and 2 exist and all play each other through the season but they are separate sections as far as winning their section is concerned.

[lloydy]

We've used the 'Section' system in Horsham and currently use it in Brighton. It works well.
Did KT have much success?

[SirKT]

Hi Gareth
I`ve run the Wallingford league for the last 16 years and the exodus of teams seems to have levelled out (we haven`t lost any for several now) although other leagues around us are still losing some.
In my experience it`s all down to hard work, from the secretary downwards & it helps if you`ve got some keen landlords as well.
If their just out to make money then eventually the table will be taken out and that`s when players look to other leagues or stop playing. The top teams & players also need to encourage youngsters & newcomers, summer leagues are probably best for that when you can all mix in together. Handicap leagues, love em or hate em do work, and they keep regular players interested.
I`ve found over the years when we haven`t run a summer league, some players don`t come back, they`ve found something else to do. Food for thought......

Once you start losing sites and you end up with 4 pubs with 8 teams between them, that`s when it gets dangerously close to a league folding, so i always think it`s best to find other pubs or clubs when starting new teams. Which is why i`m doing it in Brighton & Worthing.
Been to a pub in Lancing tonight with a Bar Billiard history and the landlord is quite keen for us to play there.
Watch this space!

[lloydy]

Thanks KT.
Definatley food for though... Talking of food did you find the curry house?

Which pub in Lancing?

[Sparky]

KP if I have understood you rightly you are in fact describing what has actually happened this year as Horsham has not become one division/league it has just started playing between the two divisions (Interdivisional) so each division still has it's winners and runners-up, but does benefit from everyone playing at more venues, rather than playing the same division/people three times a year.

The main point against this is the possibilty of upsetting some of the Div2 players who would get annoyed at constantly being thrashed by some of the Div1 players. We can only hope that this doesn't happen and that these players may either accept this as a generally good idea or even respond by trying even harder.

Lloydy, in Mid-Sussex we had the 'problem' of increasing teams, from the usual 10 or 11 from 1997 to 2003, then 12 in 2004, then at 14 in 2005-6 we made a bad mistake in the League set-up when after many years of playing 'interdivisionally' (as Horsham will be this year) we then split the divisions and had a backlash from players who did not want to play at fewer venues - this was compounded by increasing the number of our handicapped 'Charity' games (which Horsham doesn't have) - and to the relief of many players we have reverted to our old 'interdivisional' system this year as we have dropped back to 12 teams (above 12 teams will cause us problems again in future).

In short I believe that once the players get used to the new system they will accept it, but they need time, and it is certainly worth trying out.

[lloydy]

Completely agree Sparky.

Interdivisional system is the right way to go.

My main point is how the league increases numbers?

[Sparky]

Sorry mate picked up wrong end of hot stick again (if I was clever I could put a fancy stickman or pacman type here)

lloydy said:

We're down to 1 league now after losing numerous teams and a lot of players over years (including myself albeit temporarily) and I'm sure this is a problem across the country. I don't have the answers, but does anyone have any experience of a league increasing in numbers? If so, how?

It will be sad to see a league that use to be the largest in Sussex merge with another. Or worse - fold! ???

Interesting post Gareth. Horsham were indeed once the largest, at the 1981 AGM 48 teams had re-applied and we had to vote on whether to have 3 division of 16 teams or 4 divisions of 12 !
It is sad to see so many teams disappear, but a lot of it could be down to beer and petrol prices. At one time Social Clubs weren't eligible to join the League (Horsham relented in 1968 and let them in) but these days Leagues couldn't exist without them.

It is a miracle really that more leagues haven't folded like Portslade and Crawley did.
What "merger" do you think might be on the cards eventually ?

[Sparky]

On the subject of maintaining/increasing numbers of teams and players, I believe that part of any success we had in Mid-Sussex was due to our Handicap 'Charity' games which encourages lesser players with a fair chance against the better players, it was definitely something I looked forward to when I started (less keen now :()

The down side is fitting the games into the season, it was introduced many years ago to bulk out the smaller MS fixtures but would be almost impossible to drop now which would be a very real problem if we had 15 or more teams.

I agree that one or more people have to actively badger and convince publicans/landlords to put in tables but then you have to find players, incidentally I know a pub that has a top and would love to have a team play there but cannot get one! So we come back to argument that maybe the best way to increase teams and players is for an established team to split into two new teams, bringing on new players, but not many happy teams will do that.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

I think part of the success is how KT says, ideally you want one team from a pub rather than two, it doesnt suit the landlord this system 'obviously', but is more likely to get a few interested m8's together to make a second team up. When a pub has two teams already then there seems more reluctance for someone to 'start up' the game.
Another point is when a player leaves a top team is to find a lesser experienced player and bring him on, don't grab another top player from another side as this can have a knock on effect and the team splits up, and another table goes :(

Sparky, I agree your point on playing better teams frightens some players, however the answer generally is to set the table up to be as straight as possible allowing the players more table time and break building confidence.
Too many teams think the opposite, and set up tricky tables at the detriment of the lesser players. The top players if you give too many chances will beat them anyway so you may as well give your players the best chance and make it easier.

A great example of this is the Portcullis table at Wallingford, a very straightforward table that bites you if you relax too much on it. Wallingford C play from it too in the Inter Area and 'although good players' have beaten many top players on it, even when they had the break, one mistake and 10K gets put past them. The table runs a good time, and 20K+ is possible if quickly played, so players are never safe until a big score is recorded. It is all about confidence, and the easier the table the more confident you become.

[Sparky]

KP I totally agree about having the best table possible to build up confidence and give yourself the best chance, also I know some people cannot work out how to set up a table or the table is a dog but, like you, I think the deliberate tweaking of a table doesn't do Bar Billiards any favours in the long run.

[lloydy]

CT,

I think there were 36 teams (3x12) when I started in 1990!

Billingshurst is the obvious merger with Mid-Sussex a close second. But really, a merger would and should be last resort.

Horsham needs some freshening up. The rules regarging 'Breaks' have changed this year and that is a positive move, although long overdue. I was Comp Sec in the mid 90's and tried numerous times to get that rule through - without success. Frustration comes to mind.
Horsham now has an opportunity to discuss how best to move forward (as I think it's been stuck in rut for years!). KT made some good points earlier and I believe Horsham need to do, or try, anything to ease the rot. Your right that petrol and pub prices take their toll, but we cant do anything about that. The need is to look at what can be done.

The reason I started this thread was to get some constructive discussion from anyone who has anything to do with Horsham.... Or the BB world for that matter.

wow! 1968 -- were you really playing BB that long ago :D

The only way you're ever going to get extra teams is to make the game more attractive to youngsters so that they take up the game.
We have a great rule of etiquette whereby anyone can walk into a pub and slap a coin down on the table and get a game before anyone already on the table puts a second coin in (except if it's league night of course): much better than in the case of Pool, where "winner stays on".

So why aren't more youngsters taking it up ? We need to give the game in general a bigger profile, somehow. If only it were shown on TV a few times........youngsters who hadn't seen it before might think "that looks good, wouldn't mind a go at that."

Well, Lloydy, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why Horsham has shrunk in recent years.
A lot of it must be down to the refusal to make the effort to stage summer competitions : There used to be two, both Open to all of Sussex (and Surrey as well). The King & Barnes Open Doubles I'm sure you will remember - you and Sleezy were runners-up to Tupps and Smith on the last occasion of five consecutive times they won it. And the Festival Cup which was discontinued in 1997/98 - my side the Black Dog being the last-ever winners.

These two competitions were money-spinners, I can remember accepting 48 entries into the Festival Cup and 64 into the K & B Doubles one year. And it all helped to keep the League fresh and interesting. The guys from the team I play in now in Redhill I met through the K & B - Snashfold and Trottman always used to enter both competitions from the Black Horse Reigate. And it was very popular with the Brighton and Worthing boys especially.

If you want a positive suggestion, Horsham could maybe consider running a separate Charity League in season, exactly as Mid Sussex do at present.

Hope Ian doesn't mind us discussing Horsham League business in this manner !

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

tommo said:

If only it were shown on TV a few times........youngsters who hadn't seen it before might think "that looks good, wouldn't mind a go at that."

Clive be honest now, to anyone who doesn't play the game, it is less exciting than Big Brother or watching paint set. BB suffers from the same problem that 'billiards' of the olden days had, repetitive shots that to an onlooker looks as boring as it can get.
9 Ball pool for example has a lot more going for it when it comes to TV.
You cannot televise a 3 shot game, which is all it is at the top level.

I'm always honest, KP. ::)
Did try to be candid once, though, by offering the view that our three-shot version of the game is too easy, and maybe we should all play the off-the-spot version.
That is the version which would really suit TV more - overhead camera angles showing shots off the cush to "get out of trouble".

[SirKT]

Hi Lloydy
we found 2 curry houses opposite each other and that was good enough. Food was nice although service a bit slow.

The pub i looked at last night was the Three Horseshoes on the seafront. Landlord (Geoff) seemed quite keen so i`ve been in touch with Rod Tarratt this morning, hopefully have a table in next week.

[Q]

Well done Kev
How do you go about it though?

I've spoken to a venue, Labour club in Crawley and they are quite keen to accomodate a team, the problem is though getting players to start a team and play there.

Bernie

[iang]

Tommo
I don't mind at all but thanks to Sparky for pointing out that we haven't "shrunk to 1 division" we still have the 2 divisions & still stay at 14 teams the same as last 2 years I know it is a lot less than years gone by. When I started as secretary we had 20 teams. We have listened to what players want & have changed the ranking point system etc We have lost such teams as the Rising Sun & the Plough are down to 1 team. At least this way we only play each other home & away & hopefully no Byes.
It's Great to see Lloydy taking interest again when will we know the answer to the Rumor ?????
Are going to have a SUPER TEAM.
the registration forms have gone out, we will see.
Ian

[SirKT]

No secret Q, been friends with Paul Wing for a long time and he loves competitive BB which he doesn`t get a lot of in Pompey. Anyway, he`s free to play on Thursdays, been watching Matt Jones (Worthing) improving in the last year and he wants to step up to the top flight. One mate has moved back to Brighton so he didn`t want to travel all the way over to Littlehampton and i`ve just asked one of your talented youngsters if he wanted a game on a thursday and he has accepted.
As for my Brighton team, i get on great with Ricky and asked him to play back in March (also in the Open pairs next year), Geoff Jukes hasn`t played Brighton before and fancied a go and my good mate Mal Spier also wanted to change teams, so there you have it. Put a few feelers out, preferrably early in the summer, mix & match, experience & youth and hopefully you have a reasonable first season together.
I`m looking forward to it

[lloydy]

Summer comps def keep interest going. For sure they need to be handicapped. We play Summer league in Brighton that way and get players from all divisions. Roffey S&S Club also has a handicapped singles, most of the entrants are non-players.

As for the rumours...... they'll have to stay rumours.... for now!