Are easy-drop pockets legal ?

Houston, we have a problem !

Feb 2, 2018 1:07:05 GMT Ros said:

Quick drop pockets on the table - surely not legal under AEBBA rules?

We eagerly await the updated set of AEBBA Rules following the 2017 AGM.

The last official publication was 2013 and I have been carefully monitoring any changes since then and am convinced that they will not be able to provide an answer to the above.....Reason ? There is a gap between Playing Conditions Rule 79 and Rules of Play 91 (in other words, no rules 80 - 90).

We are in a much better state than we were in in 2006, when no official set of AEBBA Rules had been available for ten years: Sav organised a project to resolve this with much input from Forum members over a number of months, and an EGM took place to ratify them and make them available to all.

I am however unable to view the 2006 draft as (being a large file) it was an attachment and I can't find it on here now. The ratified rule set was displayed on the previous AEBBA site - lost to us now. So the absence of Playing Conditions 80 - 90, whether deleted deliberately or not, remains a mystery.

The Rules as they stand will not bear any reference to the number of table pockets, their configuration, or their score values. No mention either of their dimensions, or whether or not easy drop (= 4 bars round the pockets) are allowed.

Here, the 4-Pin version of their Rules have the advantage over us with a simple graphic diagram. Using similar would represent an easy fix for our new regime without the need to call an EGM.

However the matter of easy-drop would remain a contentious issue and would have to be discussed at a future AGM.

[JB]

The last official publication was 2013 and I have been carefully monitoring any changes since then and am convinced that they will not be able to provide an answer to the above.....Reason ? There is a gap between Playing Conditions Rule 79 and Rules of Play 91 (in other words, no rules 80 - 90).

Are the rules not done like that?
ie they go
1-21
31-61
71-79
Etc meaning each section starts with ?1

Could be, and that puts paid to my theory of an accidental removal.

But it does not alter the fact that we could do with hearing from the AEBBA as to whether or not Ros's query remains an open question.

The graphic I mentioned that could resolve the omissions in a stroke is thus:

(30 and 10s round the wrong way of course)

[Chris_Sav]

Just to clarify as the perpetrator.



When I organised updating the rules after a 20 year gap, they were re-numbered sequentially. I deliberately left gaps between the sections to allow for additions.


I was again tasked with producing a master set at the 2017 AGM on Dec 3rd and a fully documented set were supplied to AEBBA on Dec 4th for confirmation, there has, of course, been an EGM since then.


Nothing on the old site has been lost, you only have to ask.



On the original topic, nothing in the rules about size shape or profile of the pocket rings (I have more or less all of them including ribbed)

[milko]

I must admit to not being a fan of "easy drop" pockets as it's good to have a few swingers during a game, makes it more exciting!

The Masons Arms in the Oxford League has those pockets, I think.

Would hate to see all those records go that have been made over time because of them!

Milko

That's the real point, helping bars round the cups make it virtually impossible to miss the break shot.
The first table I ever played on - in the Nelson Hotel Horsham - had them, and I was getting 12k breaks on it as a teenager.
I was informed at the time that there was no chance of it being a League table as Riley tables were banned.

I would imagine they were around in the 1950s and 1960s though as according to folklore certain players (Ron James, Reg Powell) were getting scores of 20k. I was also told at the time that the one-up on the fourth break shot had to be brought in specifically to make the game less easy.

[daveuk1]

Am I missing the point? Sav talks about ribbed ones, milko about easy drop and then tommo mentions things he done as a teenager.

Sav has stocks for all shapes and sizes, including ribbed. LOL

[Chris_Sav]

Feb 2, 2018 19:21:35 GMT tommo III said:

Sav has stocks for all shapes and sizes, including ribbed. LOL

Yeh but not strawberry  flavoured 


The original post does not make it clear whether Jersey or ribbed are being talked about.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have an inkling that the table concerned may be the one sold by Alan, as shown on this thread:
barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/20361/tables-sale

If this is indeed the case, the "easy drop" aspect would be more akin to Jersey tops rather than the pockets being 'ribbed'.
I don't think this would duly upset league players in Sussex which now seems to have quite an eclectic mix of table types. The only types which might cause an outcry would be Riley with ribbed cups; Narrow SAMS; or modern Supreme.

[bigtj]

Think the comment could apply to both tables in the Pocket Rocket, and it is good to see people go out and spend money to supply tables ( in the case of the Pocket Rocket A ) this has an old sixpenny slot.

Not sure on the rule and have had no comment or complaint from the losers of the match in common, and indeed no complaints on the first league game played there Wednesday, only positive comments.

Obviously if a rule is in place re Jersey drop pockets then the leagues concerned would have to look at the situation, but again our game is dying and I applaud everyone who tries their utmost to keep it going, either through tireless work or by supplying the materials to play on.

[barbelman]

I cannot recall ever seeing a rule about the size of pockets. 

I remember going to a friendly with the Lord Napier, Oxford in the sixties to pub in Portsmouth.  It had a nautical name but I can't remember what.  Anyway it had ribbed pockets and apparently a lot of the tables in the Pompey and Soton league at that time did.  Some huge scores were being made....

It was quite disconcerting when the balls dropped so quickly

On a practical note, we have a very limited stock of tables and spares now and I afraid it's often a case of putting up with what we've got and showing a bit of tolerance.

Feb 3, 2018 10:28:18 GMT barbelman said:

I cannot recall ever seeing a rule about the size of pockets. 

Feb 3, 2018 10:28:18 GMT barbelman said:

On a practical note, we have a very limited stock of tables and spares now and I afraid it's often a case of putting up with what we've got and showing a bit of tolerance.

I don't think AEBBA have ever purported to direct individual counties as to what table types they should use: Surrey for instance favour Jelkes and when the Black Dog joined Redhill League in 2000 we were asked to change our table to a B-B Ltd top as otherwise the league would have to forfeit the discount they were entitled to from the operator. The league now own 11 fine Jelkes tables, of course.

In Sussex there was always a degree of standardisation (SAMS tables only) under Tarratt Tables' jurisdiction. Since the turn of the century, however, private ownership has crept in with Rod turning a blind eye. We are sailing close to the wind, though, with Rod making it known that his bar billiards activities are subsidised from his Pool ones.

If ever a ruling were needed, I very much doubt if the County Association would wish to get involved, this would be left to the individual League. I can recall the Windmill Southwick installing a modern Supreme table with an MDF base, but it proved unpopular and was soon replaced with a proper one !

However, I still find it rather strange that AEBBA rule set should contain much guidance on table dimensions (height even !) size of D, distance of spots, illumination, number of balls etc. etc. but nothing on number or arrangement of pockets.

tommo

[alanturner]

Feb 2, 2018 20:16:17 GMT tommo III said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have an inkling that the table concerned may be the one sold by Alan, as shown on this thread:
barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/20361/tables-sale

If this is indeed the case, the "easy drop" aspect would be more akin to Jersey tops rather than the pockets being 'ribbed'.
I don't think this would duly upset league players in Sussex which now seems to have quite an eclectic mix of table types. The only types which might cause an outcry would be Riley with ribbed cups; Narrow SAMS; or modern Supreme.

They are Jersey rings on that table , the Jelks( the original rings were were made of wood and 7 out of the 9 were broken or missing )

I have the 2 remaining wooden rings , if anyone  needs them for their table let me know.

Alan

[alanturner]

Feb 2, 2018 20:16:17 GMT tommo III said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have an inkling that the table concerned may be the one sold by Alan, as shown on this thread:
barbilliards.proboards.com/thread/20361/tables-sale

If this is indeed the case, the "easy drop" aspect would be more akin to Jersey tops rather than the pockets being 'ribbed'.
I don't think this would duly upset league players in Sussex which now seems to have quite an eclectic mix of table types. The only types which might cause an outcry would be Riley with ribbed cups; Narrow SAMS; or modern Supreme.

If 2 people are playing each other on the same table then there is no advantage to anyone  !!

ie .......not all league football pitchs are the same size , but are within parameters set down in the rules .

This can be used to home advantage , can be !! But does not guarantee  a win ?

Alan

With 47,580 points being scored in 4 frames in the first competitive match to be played on it, I don't think there'll be too many complaints about the table you sold to The Reverend, Alan.

[taffy]

The set I borrowed off Alan have 4 ribs...I was shocked, everyone mentioned 'easydrop' and I remembered them being great, we loved the tables with them.

and then they arrived, OH MY GOD!!! the bloody things had 4 ribs sticking out.

in my day, easy drop meant 4 GROOVES not 4 ribs. did exactly the same thing but didn't sound like someone hitting their own teeth with a fork!

my table holes are 53mm ID with a sharp 90d corner. the balls don't "rim", they are either going in or they are OUT.

Taffy

[taffy]

I look forward to the day someone makes the brown bakolite pockets again, the ones with a slightly flat top edge to them and installs in them 4 cut out notches to get the ball down quicker. when the ball is in the hole it needs to slow down and fall PDQ. its all to slow in todays world. OK in 1935.....

Taffy

Nov 8, 2018 9:15:52 GMT taffy said:

I look forward to the day someone makes the brown bakolite pockets again, the ones with a slightly flat top edge to them and installs in them 4 cut out notches to get the ball down quicker. when the ball is in the hole it needs to slow down and fall PDQ. its all to slow in todays world. OK in 1935.....

Taffy

You'd love the Jersey tables, then, Taffy:

Burroughes & Watts tables (quality, Sav reckons they're the best) with the bakelite rings. Makes the pockets seem like a precipice. Ball drops like a stone.

[taffy]

I thought that they were 55mm scarlet red things Tommo? I've seen the 55s, just how you describe them! I don't think we need a new injection moulder. In this 3d world of printing it might be something a 3D printer can spit out...but I don't know!

There's something about these two jelks I've got, they seem to make the game easy!

cheers

Taffy

These are what the Jersey tables look like, Taffy:

(hoping I've not breached any rules of copyright)