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Post by Dave Hampton on Nov 29, 2018 1:57:41 GMT
No coaching when a player is at the table
Q When does a player become "at the table"?
Is it when the opponent's break ends, or is it when the player puts the cue ball on the D?
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jelly
Full Forum Member
Posts: 351
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Rule 35
Nov 29, 2018 6:35:58 GMT
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Post by jelly on Nov 29, 2018 6:35:58 GMT
I think the following rules help with this one
102) If a ball on the lip of a hole falls in after the scorer has called end of break, in conjunction with rule 116)f), this ball shall not count
116f) If, during the course of play, a ball remains on the lip of a hole, the scorer shall decide when to call end of break in accordance with rule 102). (Player walking away from table does not determine end of break)
My interpretation of this if that once the scorer has declared the score for that shot and if nothing has been potted then that is the end of the break, and the next player would begin his break on striking the cue ball. I am happy to be corrected if anyone thinks differently. And I know that there is variation over what people actually play in different leagues with regards to walking away from the table.
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jelly
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Posts: 351
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Rule 35
Nov 29, 2018 6:40:17 GMT
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Post by jelly on Nov 29, 2018 6:40:17 GMT
Sorry I just realised I had misread your actual question! With regards to coaching, I think there is no separate definition of at the table in this respect, but it comes down to sportsmanlike conduct, I would say it is relatively common albeit maybe bad form for someone from the players team to whisper a word of advice in the players ear very briefly before they approach the table for their turn but anything more than that giving clear advice when the shot is not obvious would be clearly in breach of the rules in my opinion, apart from gentle words of encouragement from the team throughout the break.
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Post by bigtj on Nov 29, 2018 8:21:54 GMT
Have often discussed this and we also wonder what counts as coaching, many a time players are prompted on how long left or given subtle ( well not always subtle ) hints on when to get off the table is this coaching ??
Think as far as giving advice to a player as to what shot to play would start when they have approached the table and prepared to play their shot.
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Post by Chris on Nov 29, 2018 18:36:51 GMT
Personally I believe there should be nothing once a player is on the table. Before they put the ball on the dee is acceptable, after that they should decide what they do.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 19:14:14 GMT
My angle on this is the moment when the players have crossed should be where the rule kicks in.
Just suppose that the advice you want to give is "don't go anywhere near the black": this to me would be acceptable up to the point when the player is advancing to the table and the opponent in the process of leaving.
But you should not be permitted to offer this advice while the player is picking a ball out of the rack/spotting the ball/cueing up, as to me that would constitute 'coaching whilst at the table'.
Just my opinion.
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Post by bobhall on Nov 29, 2018 19:16:58 GMT
I think the easiest saying is coaches in the carpark not in the pub
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taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Nov 30, 2018 9:47:22 GMT
I think the easiest saying is coaches in the carpark not in the pub I think sticking to the core of the subject helps. I don't know how you interprete the rules but usually you work around a 'black and white' moment. so to me, that moment is when the first ball struck, that ones very clear or the other is placing the ball on the D but, as people roll them up to it, move it around, twiddle just above it is not as clear as the shot being taken. just my two pence. Taffy
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Post by Dave Hampton on Nov 30, 2018 11:15:56 GMT
How about - When they pick up the cue ball for their first shot
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Rule 35
Nov 30, 2018 12:31:26 GMT
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Post by bobhall on Nov 30, 2018 12:31:26 GMT
How about - When they pick up the cue ball for their first shot Yes someone shouldnt coach someone into taking a diff shot or playing differently
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 14:21:57 GMT
So - I go to the table, and before I've even lined up for a shot, I turn round to my teammates and say "what shall I do ?" and they tell me the shot to play: that wouldn't amount to coaching ???
Also it's a courtesy to place a ball on the D for the opponent on finishing a break, so that's a red herring anyway.
Must say I'm surprised at Dave for bringing this up now, having been playing for - what - 50 years ???
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Post by daveuk1 on Nov 30, 2018 14:53:43 GMT
What is coaching though? If a team mate says "go on, go for the 400" is that coaching just encouraging?
I know are 4 pin rules are not approved of by some people essentially the always using the red ball and I suspect that technically having a team mate or a member of the opposition reminding you to use the red is coaching.
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Post by Chris on Nov 30, 2018 18:39:17 GMT
I think the easiest saying is coaches in the carpark not in the pub I so agree with this best advice re coaching Chris xxx
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Post by Chris on Nov 30, 2018 18:40:54 GMT
So on to timing of a game ??
My views up to the player themselves.
Thanks Chris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 19:34:32 GMT
No coaching when a player is at the table Q When does a player become "at the table"? Is it when the opponent's break ends, or is it when the player puts the cue ball on the D? We're all guilty of skirting round this one: Dave asked a simple question (above).
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Post by Dave Hampton on Nov 30, 2018 21:07:16 GMT
So - I go to the table, and before I've even lined up for a shot, I turn round to my teammates and say "what shall I do ?" and they tell me the shot to play: that wouldn't amount to coaching ??? Also it's a courtesy to place a ball on the D for the opponent on finishing a break, so that's a red herring anyway. Must say I'm surprised at Dave for bringing this up now, having been playing for - what - 50 years ???
I'm going for when the player themselves places the ball on the D BTW Clive - first played January 1957, first league game 1961
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 23:26:23 GMT
Were that the case, might have saved Margo a few BPs had I known that to be permissable.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 1, 2018 9:49:13 GMT
First off are we not talking about rule 118 in the current rules. To me a player is at the table from the moment he approaches the table when his opponent's break ends and until completing his final shot of the current break. Yes any advice on shot choice or helpful comments to the player such as a loud "good shot Fred" to signify you've scored enough to win is coaching. Why does it matter though? there is no listed penalty for coaching, so a penalty cannot be applied if it happens! It's gamesmanship in my view, but coach away until there is a penalty for doing so!
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Rule 35
Dec 1, 2018 10:14:44 GMT
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Post by bobhall on Dec 1, 2018 10:14:44 GMT
First off are we not talking about rule 118 in the current rules. To me a player is at the table from the moment he approaches the table when his opponent's break ends and until completing his final shot of the current break. Yes any advice on shot choice or helpful comments to the player such as a loud "good shot Fred" to signify you've scored enough to win is coaching. Why does it matter though? there is no listed penalty for coaching, so a penalty cannot be applied if it happens! It's gamesmanship in my view, but coach away until there is a penalty for doing so! Sussex have a rule in place for competitions and it states that a players break will be forfeited
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Post by Chris_Sav on Dec 1, 2018 12:18:30 GMT
Sussex have a rule in place for competitions and it states that a players break will be forfeited Well separate Sussex playing rules must be jolly confusing for Sussex players as Sussex, by virtue of the AEBBA affiliation, agree to play under AEBBA rules. In the event of a dispute in Sussex, it is also in the Sussex rules that the AEBBA rule book is the one to be referred to and not the Sussex rules???
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Post by JB on Dec 1, 2018 14:41:46 GMT
Sussex rules state that we follow AEBBA rules for rules of play
We have a separate set of rules to cover our Sussex competitions
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