What Have I Missed??

[Chris_Sav]

The basic rules as in the 'Rules of Our Game' thread I am working on.

I am waiting for AEBBA AGM minutes from Dave Alder.

In the meantime, what is missing in the template rules and what I have included in the other threads??

Remember we cannot change rules, only clarify them.

Sav.

[NigelS]

One I was thinking of, don't know if the rules are written for this or not, but the timed break rule, which settles tied knockout matches

When do you start the watch - at the pulling of the bar, or when they first strike the balls
When do you call time, do balls in motion count towards the break, or only those that have already sunk down the holes?

[NigelS]

And another one, which did happen this year.

What should happen if someone fails to complete their set of matches in a round robin event. For instance, someone could get called away on an emergency halfway through the day.

Should all their games be nullified, as they may have beaten one player and lost to another player, the whole situation of the tournament may change, or do you award two points to the players that have not played the player that has had to leave. In the latter case how does this effect aggregate points, and should the wording average score be used instead of aggregate. Clearly someone who has played 4 games could have a higher aggregate than someone who has only played 3, but the player who has played 3 may have the higher average.

[Chris_Sav]

Yes the last one is a good point as any remote chance you or I had to qualify in the AEBBA singles were totally removed by Bernie M.'s walkout as we could not aggregate any score in our unplayed matches against him. I think the only fair way is to nullify the played matches

We cannot change or add rules without an EGM. I will add any suggestions for new rules as an addendum and then AEBBA can call an EGM if they so decide.

Incidentally the EGM at Bournemouth was called unconstitiutionally as an EGM can only be called by five memer counties. This is a point AEBBA will have to remember here.

Sav

[Chris_Sav]

One for the intercounties this year.

If two teams from the same county are in the same division in any AEBBA round robin group, they must play each other in the first round of matches.

This is to prevent possible collusion later

[Chris_Sav]

No posts for three days now.

Some room still for debate on the cheating aspects of the game.

I'll start typing them up this weekend if there are no more developments

Sav.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

sav said:

No posts for three days now.

I have been waiting for tommo to put up a post to dispute ;)

Just kidding, been too busy for last week :(

[milko]

nigels said:

One I was thinking of, don't know if the rules are written for this or not, but the timed break rule, which settles tied knockout matches

When do you start the watch - at the pulling of the bar, or when they first strike the balls
When do you call time, do balls in motion count towards the break, or only those that have already sunk down the holes?

At the pulling of the bar.

When time is up & count only those balls that have dissapeared down the hole.

But saying that, I remember (just) when I was on the show "Record Breakers" with the late Roy Castle in the 1980s, that we started the clock once I had struck the cueball & the total score was at the end of one minute with any balls still going down the pocket not counting. (as above)

I think this is how most people run the speed break competition, which we had on Sunday in the Inter Area 7s on the spare table, that was won by loudmouth Pete Burton ;) with 3,650 (I think).



Keith.

[milko]

nigels said:

And another one, which did happen this year.

What should happen if someone fails to complete their set of matches in a round robin event. For instance, someone could get called away on an emergency halfway through the day.

Should all their games be nullified, as they may have beaten one player and lost to another player, the whole situation of the tournament may change, or do you award two points to the players that have not played the player that has had to leave. In the latter case how does this effect aggregate points, and should the wording average score be used instead of aggregate. Clearly someone who has played 4 games could have a higher aggregate than someone who has only played 3, but the player who has played 3 may have the higher average.

I would agree with Chris, that all their games should be nullified.

kpringle said:

sav said:

No posts for three days now.

I have been waiting for tommo to put up a post to dispute ;)

Just kidding, been too busy for last week :(

That's funny KP,
I've been waiting for you to put something up for an identical reason. ;D

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

As Homer would say 'DOH' :)

[Chris_Sav]

I have a hectic three days in front of me, so will catch up on this on Friday evening.

Sav.

Not really looking for a Rule to cover this, but rather for a ruling :

We discussed at length "timewasting" bordering on cheating. And also (above) about a player absenting himself half-way through a competition.

But what would happen if a player was taken ill half-way through a game and unable to continue - or able to continue but only sporadically ?

Say someone got a bad attack of the dreaded stomach bug and had to make a toilet dash ? Would they forfeit the game if they had already scored enough to win ?

I ask this as I myself get sudden attacks of cramp in my toes, and sometimes my calf muscles lock. Bad circulation no doubt. In the first half of the season the Watermill kindly allowed me to swap my game 3 over and play last - by which time I had fully recovered.

I suppose if I had not been able to see game five through I would have had to forfeit as "retired hurt" - but supposing I was able to continue but kept having to stop for 20 seconds here and there with the twinges - at what point would this be classed as time-wasting ?

[milhouse]

tommo said:

Not really looking for a Rule to cover this, but rather for a ruling :

We discussed at length "timewasting" bordering on cheating. And also (above) about a player absenting himself half-way through a competition.

But what would happen if a player was taken ill half-way through a game and unable to continue - or able to continue but only sporadically ?

Say someone got a bad attack of the dreaded stomach bug and had to make a toilet dash ? Would they forfeit the game if they had already scored enough to win ?

I ask this as I myself get sudden attacks of cramp in my toes, and sometimes my calf muscles lock. Bad circulation no doubt. In the first half of the season the Watermill kindly allowed me to swap my game 3 over and play last - by which time I had fully recovered.

I suppose if I had not been able to see game five through I would have had to forfeit as "retired hurt" - but supposing I was able to continue but kept having to stop for 20 seconds here and there with the twinges - at what point would this be classed as time-wasting ?

Something like this happened in an Eynsham league game earlier in the season. One of our players had got a bit score, then after a couple of goes down the bottom, had an attack to the runs (had been ill for a few days). What happened was his opponent took his shot and then waited for 5 or 10 seconds (cant remember which) and then carried on playing again.
I think this is a rule which needs to be addressed as everyone probably knows this happened to me during the World Champs. Apparently, people were trying to get the game forfeited by me, but this is unfair as nature does tend to call at the wrong moment!

[bigtj]

Agree that blatant timewasting has to be governed by the rules, but has either to be a proviso for sickness ( i.e. the runs ) or common sense should prevail.

[davejones]

Sickness ie a case of the trots must be covered. Anything else just would not be cricket!

[Sir Chancelot]

bigtj said:

Agree that blatant timewasting has to be governed by the rules, but has either to be a proviso for sickness ( i.e. the runs ) or common sense should prevail.

If someone "time wastes" you should fight fire with fire.
Wait till you are ahead against them and play at their same speed.
They do not like that.

When playing league darts many years ago there used to be a player that used to take a minute to throw three darts.
This was very off putting.
I got so pissed off one evening playing against him, I retaliated by disappearing off to the loo for several minutes when I was due to throw.
That got him so mad and he sped his game up immediately.

[Dave Anscombe]

Hi all. I'm not one to usually post to this particular area of the forum but I thought that in this case I would as I have been in a similar situation as being discussed.
Many years ago, during the late '70's I was playing for the Southdown in the West Sussex League. I had scored a few points and was in the lead by about 500, so I was told. Unfortunately during my game I suffered an epileptic fit. They managed to move me away from the table and a sub (with the agreement of the other team, who had not played and did not play again that night) took over and won the game.
At the time no one raised any objections but after all these years I feel the game should have been declared a draw. What do you other eminent people think? Also, what happens if someone drops dead during a game? I believe it happened during a Worthing League match many seasons ago.

Rather a morbid subject Dave.

Firstly your game - I do not think many would consider it should have been declared a draw.
If you were taken ill during the game and unable to continue, out of sportsmanship the game should have been declared null and void and a replay arranged for some other time.
There are precedents - in the Mid Sussex league this season, a Team knockout match was poised at 2-all and Andy Farmer Wright was called away because he had heard his wife was taken ill. His opponents sportingly agreed that the decider caould take place another night.

Likewise Eddy Griffen once suffered a heart attack whilst playing a singles match at the Five Oaks, and was able to continue the aborted match a week or two later when he had made a full recovery.

In the case of a death, as happened to Charlie Francis during a Billingshurst League match, everyone abandons the match, packs up and goes home out of deference.

I believe it also happened on a Mid Sussex - or maybe it was Lewes ? - Finals Night: Bernard Sprackling had already clinched the Mens Singles Championship on the night, and had started the Mens Doubles Final when he suffered a fatality. Again, in such sad circumstances, the remainder of the evening was cancelled.

[Dave Anscombe]

It was not meant to be morbid tommo :). The reason I wrote it was to try and discuss all possibilities that might arise. You have mentioned precedents for illness' etc and these seem OK. My problem was in a league game and results had to be handed in asap.
What I am trying to get at is, is the result sent in without the outstanding game? Also, who plays this 'postponed' game, the player who was taken ill or his sub? If the player who was ill was losing by a large margin his opponent my not like the idea of playing against someone new and risk losing what could be a very important game.
Fortunately, things like illness and deaths are very rare in our game but a healthy (sorry about using the word :-[) discussion should be had so that in the event of such an event people know where they stand. In the event of a death, I agree all the rest of the evening should be canceled.
By the way I do have a bit of a reputation of taking things a bit too far and 'nit pic'. :-[ :-[. It's not meant......honest ::) ::) ::)

I think really what complicates what should be a straightforward matter is the use of substitute once the game has started.

I have heard of no other league in which this is allowed.

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

On the point of nature calling at the most inopportune moment during a game would it not be simpler for the scorer/checker to time these and add them to the end when the bar has dropped then the offending player (if he/she may be called offending) provide the additional coin and the wasted time played out.

I was captain at the match tommo referred to on an earlier post when during his match his good lady wife was rushed to hospital he quite obviously had to leave and the opposition captain Ros Appleby suggested that that that particular game be replayed on another evening, as we did, both teams showed up the following weekend and had a 'friendly' match and Andy played Ros to decide the outcome of the previous match, and a right good laugh was had by all. As I said in one of my post match reports that the understanding and sportsmanship shown by Ros and her team that evening was exemplary.

Getting back to the other point what about the scorer/checker being caught short, I know in a couple of matches this season I have had to 'dash' to the lav whilst scoring!!! Nightmare!!!

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

Just a quick one here, can we have a clearer clarification on what constitutes a 'ball in motion'? might sound like a daft one but there you go.

I ask purely as I witnessed a team mate of mines accidentally knocking over the black peg with his cue, I accept that this is loss of all score if there is a 'ball in motion'. But I think it's in mid sussex rules that the 'ball in motion' rule doesn't apply if the player has potted? I could be wrong there!!

Anyway he knocked the black over whilst reaching down for his next ball, careless YES, but the 'ball in motion' was in the pocket wriggling it's way in, and fairly obviously not about to jump back out. So is that ball 'in motion' because we physically can see it moving or is it deemed 'potted' as its physically in the hole? it was ruled on the night that it was in motion and he lost all, including the match he had been wining comfortably 3k+ ahead, the bar dropped as this took place, his oppo obviously won!! Frustrating? VERY!!!

jock said:

On the point of nature calling at the most inopportune moment during a game Getting back to the other point what about the scorer/checker being caught short, I know in a couple of matches this season I have had to 'dash' to the lav whilst scoring!!! Nightmare!!!

think a rule needed here that goes something like :
"Before a frame of bar billiards can be allowed to start, both players and the scorer shall pay a quick visit to answer the call of nature. But once the coin has dropped and play started, the game shall be played through to its conclusion, even at pains of wet trousers or soiled underwear."
Any outside expenses as a resut of this can be claimed back from the league, upon presentation of the relevant dry-cleaning bill."

How about that ?
;D ;D ;D

jock said:

I witnessed a team mate of mines accidentally knocking over the black peg with his cue, I accept that this is loss of all score if there is a 'ball in motion'. But I think it's in mid sussex rules that the 'ball in motion' rule doesn't apply if the player has potted? I could be wrong there!!

Mid Sussex playing rules should be the same as Sussex playing rules (which in turn were taken from All-England - which are in the process of being rediscovered and re-published by our great leader).

I think you'll find that there is no penalty for knocking the black with the cue unless it was a deliberate act. Following the accidental disturbance, the scorer can restore the table to how it was before if anything else was moved.

This also applies for anyone who (like me once) has got over-excited and the ball flown out of the hand whilst bringing out of the tray, and sent balls crashing everywhere ! Or if the table light is dislodged with the cue and has come crashing down, like happened with Geoff Jukes in one game this season. ;D

[Colemanator]

'Ball in motion'? That's a simple one, it means it's in the shit ;D

[Sir Jock o The Strap]

tommo said:

jock said:

I witnessed a team mate of mines accidentally knocking over the black peg with his cue, I accept that this is loss of all score if there is a 'ball in motion'. But I think it's in mid sussex rules that the 'ball in motion' rule doesn't apply if the player has potted? I could be wrong there!!

Mid Sussex playing rules should be the same as Sussex playing rules (which in turn were taken from All-England - which are in the process of being rediscovered and re-published by our great leader).

I think you'll find that there is no penalty for knocking the black with the cue unless it was a deliberate act. Following the accidental disturbance, the scorer can restore the table to how it was before if anything else was moved.

This also applies for anyone who (like me once) has got over-excited and the ball flown out of the hand whilst bringing out of the tray, and sent balls crashing everywhere ! Or if the table light is dislodged with the cue and has come crashing down, like happened with Geoff Jukes in one game this season. ;D

Hey tommo

sorry mate my fault we were playing in a Lewes match and their rule is similar to the Sussex one with the omission of the word deliberate! So he lost it on the Lewes interpretation of the Sussex Rule a bit strange that no?

Lewes Rule
28 FOUL SHOTS incurring loss of entire score penalty.
ii) Knocking down the black skittle with cue or hand while balls are in motion or before a ball has completely fallen down a hole.

Sussex Rule
27 FOUL SHOTS incurring loss of entire score penalty.
b) Deliberately knocking down the black skittle with cue or hand while balls are in motion or before a ball has completely fallen down a hole.

So which rule do we follow?

Difficult one to answer, Jock.

I would say in the circumstances, the correct decision was made on the night, as Lewes seem to have applied their own rule to the situation, over-riding Sussex and all-England's.

Many, many years ago, Horsham had their own set of playing rules which were completely out of kilter with Sussex, whose in turn were in slight conflict with All-England's.

Sussex then dumped the 'playing rules' part of their set and put one rule in to say "playing rules as per All-England" - as Sussex affiliates to All-England.

Horsham then followed Sussex's lead and dumped their own superfluous 'playing rules' and said "playing rules as per SCBBA" - as Horsham is affiliated to Sussex.

Other leagues followed suit, I remember Mid Sussex being one of them, as I was consulted by their then-Secretary at the time.

The Leagues of course have retained a certain number of what we call 'domestic rules' - covering their constitution and also Cup competitions that are peculiar to them, but it is a much neater arrangement having one set of playing rules for all leagues to follow - committees don't get bothered with even half the problems they used to get before it was all brought under one umbrella.

Having read the AEBBA rules as per AEBBA website, which hopefully will be finally ratified at this year's AGM, and bearing in mind your "What Have I Missed ??" question, this is the only one which I feel uncomfortable about :

33 v) After a player has potted both balls three times consecutively from the break position the scorer must clearly warn the player to leave one ball up. Should he fail to do so the player will not be penalised under rule 27a.

Surely, this is inviting trouble ? A player could have his own scorer, who by deliberately mumbling incoherently, could encourage his man to put the break down four times and get away with it, the player claiming he didn't hear the warning.
Furthermore, scoring 600 instead of 450 could earn him vital extra points - enough maybe to even win the game.

And surely in a genuine case the player should receive no more than the maximum 450 (or whatever the product was of sinking 'em three times) when allowed to carry on if it was established the scorer failed to give a warning ?

[Josie]

Tommo - you've reminded me that a few years ago (too many to mention!) I lost a game in this way. My opponent was on what I will admit was a winning break - and potted the break 4 times in a row. I very happily walked up to the table thinking "thank you Lord" when the chalker declared that he'd forgotten to call 1 up therefore my opponent could carry on playing!. The unfortunate thing was that I'd actually heard him say it from where I was standing - but my then team mates didn't - and our chalker wasn't paying a blind bit of attention!

Also certain chalkers I won't name (but could if I wanted to!!! 8-)) deliberatly mumble the scores and 1 up call when the other team are on the table in the hope that the player will put 4 down and they can call a foul!!!!

And lastly, I've had 1 up called on many occassions when I've only done the break twice!

Not sure what ruling you can do to make it fair. It already states they should "clearly" warn the player. Maybe the onus should actually be on the player to make sure they don't do it more than 3 times?