dillon
Full Forum Member
Posts: 170
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Post by dillon on Feb 21, 2019 14:58:56 GMT
As all who know me know, I am not scared to adapt. I have been trying to adapt to avoiding three pegs for a while now. I may soon be extinct on that basis. Not sure scared to adapt is the right phrase I love playing bar billiards but I have never played 4 pin or triangles. Not because I’m scared to adapt but basecause I have no interest in it at all (like a lot of other people I know) Its not about 3 pinners adapting its about 4pinners adapting to different table dimensions being played on standard tables and not narrow
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Post by JB on Feb 21, 2019 15:13:48 GMT
Apologies for my misunderstanding
My fault for not reading the posts thoroughly. Tend to at the most skim over them
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 16:26:56 GMT
Wow - what an offer !
I never realised anything I said on here, misguided or otherwise, was taken seriously ! I'm afraid I have to decline as I will not be in attendance at Northants this year.
This is nothing personal, Lorin: I copped for a bit of veiled criticism a couple of years ago for putting National competitions before those of my own domestic leagues: I had to sacrifice Guernsey last year because it clashed with Horsham Masters and with Finals Night on the Tuesday could not risk having to stay an extra day on the island if the boat didn't sail. This year the Northants Open is the same day as the Mid Sussex Masters which I have opted to support even if I don't make the lineup.
The Wellingborough free entry for next year was a serious suggestion, by the way: I doubt if you'd get more than half-a-dozen take you up on it and £8>£10 increase would be nothing to the rest of us. This would remove some of the feeling that with so few authentic 4-Pinners taking part it is in danger of becoming "just another Open for 3-Pinners".
All the very best for the success of your event: 8 groups with 6 in each group (all play all) sounds a great format.
tommo
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 21, 2019 17:03:56 GMT
The trouble is Zeds, I think it has been proven 4 pin on standard tables is almost just another game for 3 pinners.
Part of me does wonder why AEBBA have taken over the four pin from nothants? Northants effectively already had the tables paid for becuase of their own open the following day, so all they had to do was supply a few trophies and possibly a little prize money. They were making good use of their table hire basically.
Surely the solution is to give northants back their four pin and for AEBBA to run another 4 pin open somewhere else on a different date.
As far as I am aware I have entered both the 4 and 3 pin events at Northants so looks like I will be getting free lunch and a beer.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 18:31:42 GMT
You ask Dave how it all came about. For this you have to visit the minutes of the 2016 AEBBA AGM Quote: Colin and I worded it so that "Alternative Rules" could be one of three variants. The National Off-the-Spot had just been restored to the calendar but needed its own niche, the danger being in the wording "Alternate" which was suggestive of alternating it with Triangles. The dual purpose of the proposal therefore was a) to gain acceptance of this new event, and b) that AEBBA could then decide which one to run each year, Off-the-Spot, Triangles or 4-Pin - all alternative versions of the noble game of bar billiards.
At the time, words were being said about there being "too many events on the calendar". Triangles seemed to be losing favour so there would be a chance to drop it completely, in favour of Northants' fabulous new competition, which was being denigrated in certain quarters as "Mickey Mouse", unworthy of earning national ranking status.
Those of us who had taken part in the first one argued that with participants from several different counties it certainly had the same atmosphere as an Open. But as we know, all three "Alternatives" attract their own set of punters and accordingly all three are now being run side-by-side. People do not seem to worry any more about there being too many events, with the County Championships reduced to two days and other events with smaller lineups skillfully shoehorned into the same day. Well, you did ask !
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 21, 2019 19:24:04 GMT
Pardon?
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Post by Chris on Feb 21, 2019 20:57:35 GMT
Dear All
Clive is totally, totally correct and Colin S attended the meeting. As did I .
Once it was proposed and voted in - Stephen Coleman kindly offered to ask Northants to hold this Comp as a Four Pin for 2017. It was agreed and then it would be changed annually by AEBBA to one of 3 Comps. It was not an event at any particular County - just a very kind offer.
So there should only be an AEBBA extra OTS/FourPin/Triangle which was meant to change annually determined by the AEBBA Annually.
Yes there is an AEBBA OTS separate and funnily enough still a triangle which this was meant to replace.
Chris
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 21:05:37 GMT
Dear All Clive is totally, totally correct and Colin S attended the meeting. As did I . Once it was proposed and voted in - Stephen Coleman kindly offered to ask Northants to hold this Comp as a Four Pin for 2017. It was agreed and then it would be changed annually by AEBBA to one of 3 Comps. It was not an event at any particular County - just a very kind offer. So there should only be an AEBBA extra OTS/FourPin/Triangle which was meant to change annually determined by the AEBBA Annually. Yes there is an AEBBA OTS separate and funnily enough still a triangle which this was meant to replace. Chris So are we seeking to reduce Bar Billiards events and opportunities for people to play???? No wonder the last 20 years reflects the decline in numbers with strategies like that. Shall I just go ahead and cancel the Alt Rules this year because of the interpretation of a rule brought in a couple of years ago? What nonsense. I am growing frustrated with those who would see the game die completely whilst obediently following what have been in some cases, at best rules for their place in time and at worst ill-thought through or ill-conceived. I have committed myself and I know colleagues have to leaving the game in a far healthier state when my time is done than when I found it. To achieve that we need to make change - the fear of that has paralysed our game for a generation. Well, no more. Change must and will happen. For the second year in succession I need to ask moderators to move this dialogue from this Competiton Entry thread to something more appropriate and less likely to dissuade people from entering. What does that tell you? That we have to do this twice? Not everyone enjoys banging their head against a wall and I’m one of those people.
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Post by Chris on Feb 21, 2019 21:07:38 GMT
And to be honest given that Northants kindly took it on and no one else has said 'I will do it' hats off to them !!
If you want to run it then propose it at the AGM for 2019. As Martin Cole and I did at West Sussex for Off the spot with brilliant help from West Sussex and especially Trevor Fitzwilliam and Dave Alder.
Chris x
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Post by Chris on Feb 21, 2019 21:12:11 GMT
I was only quoting facts
I then gave a personal opinion
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 21:23:42 GMT
So are we seeking to reduce Bar Billiards events and opportunities for people to play???? No wonder the last 20 years reflects the decline in numbers with strategies like that. Shall I just go ahead and cancel the Alt Rules this year because of the interpretation of a rule brought in a couple of years ago? What nonsense. Of course not, that was then and this is now. I think most people would agree, we have exactly the right balance now.
Stop taking things so personally, Lorin, no-one is critising your regime, quite the opposite and we're heaping praise on Northants.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 21:26:23 GMT
So are we seeking to reduce Bar Billiards events and opportunities for people to play???? No wonder the last 20 years reflects the decline in numbers with strategies like that. Shall I just go ahead and cancel the Alt Rules this year because of the interpretation of a rule brought in a couple of years ago? What nonsense. Of course not, that was then and this is now. I think most people would agree, we have exactly the right balance now.
Stop taking things so personally, Lorin, no-one is critising your regime, quite the opposite and we're heaping praise on Northants. I’m not interested in praise, Clive. I’m interested in collaboration, in commitment, in support, in creativity, in being innovative. That’ll do for me.
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Post by Chris on Feb 21, 2019 21:44:36 GMT
As I said 'HATS OFF TO NORTHANTS' for running it and all thanks to Stephen at the AGM to volunteer to ask Northants - as Lorin said it is at least another competition
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 21, 2019 23:05:44 GMT
This is so off topic now, but to continue along the same lines, 3 pin may have seen a decline but 4 pin is on the up, the EA open filled all its places in a few days, Northants are well on the way to filling their four pin (the aebba 4 pin) the hastings tournament was almost filled before the date was announced
Is there some kind of trend?
As a novice at 3 pin I do find it very humiliating when you don't break and know if you're playing a decent player the best you can hope for is going to the table 5 or 6 thousand behind, in some cases you won't even get a single shot. No incentive for a beginner to put their money down on the table
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 0:07:26 GMT
Well Dave, what you've been exposed to so far has been the top echelon of the 3-pin game, seasoned competitors who travel long distances to enter Opens, many of whom play either for their county or are England Internationals.
It's not all like that, at league level with the exception of the above players, most games are won with about 3 or 4 thousand.
As for trying to play three-pin on a narrow table, ever tried it ? I have on tables I've found in Hookwood, Burstow, Carshalton, and Raynes Park: A horrible experience, I don't think I ever made a thousand except perhaps once.
You and Jeremy did all right when you came to Crawley and played on our Windmill table: by the end of the evening, despite the beer intake, you were both knocking in scores of 3k.
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Post by Coleman Jnr on Feb 22, 2019 10:03:48 GMT
May I maybe suggest admin move lot of these posts to separate thread as although relevant this is maybe going slightly off track. This thread should be for information regarding the AEBBA 4 pin for 2019 and is now full of posts to do with rule changes (which I’m sure are just copied and pasted from other threads as I seem to be reading the same thing over and over again). Long point scoring posts serve as a deterant for using the forum as a way of finding out information that is relevant, discuss all this to your hearts desire elsewhere but let’s leave this for the AEBBA to inform and players to register their interest in this competition!
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Post by NigelS on Feb 22, 2019 10:07:05 GMT
I have been following this thread with interest and feel we have got too caught up in arguing about the rules that allow competitions to take place and the playing rules for these competitions.
A great positive in recent years is that forums like this have enabled the AEBBA to reach out to further areas in the country that play our great game. So areas that play our game like Norwich, Sudbury, Nottingham, York, Sheffield that until recently had no interaction with the AEBBA mainly because the AEBBA didn’t know that these locations had leagues going. It should matter not that these leagues play different rules whether they play 3 pin or 4 pin or any other rules for that matter – to me it is still bar billiards! We shouldn’t be arguing as to whether which set of rules are better, that is something that has blighted pool for many years and they argue non stop about it! It should be remembered that Jersey set up their own championships nearly 40 years ago under different rules to the normal (ie off the spot) – and that was quite a success!
In my view if someone wants to put energy, time and money into running an event, they should be supported. Does it matter what rules they put in place for that event? If they can find a venue, hire the tables (maybe even find sponsorship) they can put out an entry form and see what response they get. If the response means they have enough numbers to run good cost effective event then hopefully that event can become a regular on the calendar. I think bar billiards players are quite lucky at the moment – there is a tournament pretty much going on every couple of weeks, and players are free to pick and choose what they play. And not all tournaments are the same, not all are 3 pin, not all are 4 pin, some are singles comps, some pairs (even blind pairs), triples or team. So a big variety. And different players will have different preferences as to what competitions they want to play in and there is nothing wrong with that.
As I am on the AEBBA committee I would want to feel that we are encouraging and supporting people who want to run tournaments and not having our rules or discussion about rules standing in the way of people holding an event. Also a big role the AEBBA have to play is pushing events forward making them better so players are enticed to play in them. If we can get each player to enter one more competition this year, I would consider this a great success. We have tried to listen to the player’s feedback and hope that it will be noticed the tournament calendar has been moved around a bit to ease congestion at the back end of the year – a bid to encourage players to participate more.
I just think we need to be more positive at times, embrace the fact we now have more people from different leagues with different rules sets and let people play the rules they want to and give them opportunities to do so. Work together is the way to achieve is – not working against each other!
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 22, 2019 12:30:06 GMT
Dear All Clive is totally, totally correct and Colin S attended the meeting. As did I . Once it was proposed and voted in - Stephen Coleman kindly offered to ask Northants to hold this Comp as a Four Pin for 2017. It was agreed and then it would be changed annually by AEBBA to one of 3 Comps. It was not an event at any particular County - just a very kind offer. So there should only be an AEBBA extra OTS/FourPin/Triangle which was meant to change annually determined by the AEBBA Annually. Yes there is an AEBBA OTS separate and funnily enough still a triangle which this was meant to replace. Chris I think all that was agreed was that the facility was put in place for AEBBA to have the option to chose either variant as any AEBBA alternate rules event.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 22, 2019 16:27:46 GMT
4 pinners unite, i'm happy for this guy to play in my team with NS,PO and JN
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 16:35:13 GMT
You just wanna get your hands on his pink ball !
Here you go, 20k claimed :
Nigel's a pussycat by comparison.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 22, 2019 16:45:15 GMT
but look at the spacings, got to be at least 7 mm and quite keen on them there holes
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 22, 2019 16:50:16 GMT
You just wanna get your hands on his pink ball ! Here you go, 20k claimed :
Nigel's a pussycat by comparison. meow!!
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 22, 2019 17:09:54 GMT
Also note Mr Taffy cue ball is not played from the center of the D on the break shots. Naughty Taffy.
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curtd
Distinguished Member
Posts: 616
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Post by curtd on Feb 22, 2019 17:16:30 GMT
Not sure what rules were being used ?? Played the break on at least 3 occasions 4 times and played the break 5 times twice before changing shot so most of them points wouldn’t have counted . Looks good to the untrained eye though hahaha And don’t get me started on moving the peg back into position to many times I lost count ??? But if those are the rules that’s ok with me Curt
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Feb 22, 2019 18:08:23 GMT
Are 2 reds used in your variation of the game to? Because 2 were definitely used in that video.
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Post by daveuk1 on Feb 22, 2019 18:51:40 GMT
Are 2 reds used in your variation of the game to? Because 2 were definitely used in that video. Think you may need to go to specsavers, one of those reds was in fact pink. It could be a great idea, but PLEASE don't ask me to explain, I think Zeds is your man for that.
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Post by gandalf the untidy on Feb 22, 2019 19:57:44 GMT
4 pinners unite, i'm happy for this guy to play in my team with NS,PO and JN Nice to see some new comments and viewers of 4 pin video
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Post by Chunky Monkey on Feb 22, 2019 22:27:00 GMT
Are 2 reds used in your variation of the game to? Because 2 were definitely used in that video. Think you may need to go to specsavers, one of those reds was in fact pink. It could be a great idea, but PLEASE don't ask me to explain, I think Zeds is your man for that. Thought it was just dull in colour, having reviewed it is pink.
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mattjj
Junior Forum Member
Posts: 47
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Post by mattjj on Feb 22, 2019 22:43:55 GMT
This is really making me want to play 4 pin lol 😂😂
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taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
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Post by taffy on Feb 23, 2019 20:51:16 GMT
seriously Dave I would never play from anything but the middle! it was on the centreline not sure about middle if we talk back to front. just played...
curt, your only conclusion has to be....he can't count the daft bugger! if in s=doubt, swap was my rule. sends you stir crazy doing the one shot.
yes a pink but only because a Sams table is so slow returning the ball. I got a Jelks next to it a month later and would suggest banning pinks straight away as being 'totally unnecassary'. fact is, I can only wait so long before I create my own rules at anything!!!!!!
pink ball; only allowed to be used as a red while the red is going down or as a last resort; the 9th ball (absolutely nothing else left). as the 9th ball (so the red is on the table already right) it is played as another white. because the pink has now been both a red and a white and the fact that the pink may stay up while the original red went went down; the rule is that a pink is only a red for that/thee shot off the D. that way, afterwards you don't look at the pink and say; "oh what is that worth?". it is a red for but a fleeting moment.
it actually works but it has more to do with the table than the rules in themselves. the moment you have a Jelks table you just think; WTF?
the pockets/rings traditionally 50mm these are 52mm but with squared edges. this stops rimming. it is also either a hit or a miss - either in or out. the Jelks black rings suck it down compared to these rings. if i did it again they would be 53mm to match the Jelks browns but as 52s they are about the same as the 'bright reds/saffrons' that most know of.
and don't mention the mushtittles with impregnated tungsten darts weights.
7mm? it's easier for you to judge on these tables as it is a sharp corner to the pocket/ring. it should only have about 3mm of cloth showing. if it was any further away it is a lack of checking on the players part!
cheers
Taffy
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