Yet A.N.Other table - quiet please!

[taffy]

I bought a Sams in February from the Three elms in Chelmsford. having 'won' it for £700 i got there to find that it was a total dog


the table looks innocent enough but when i saw it i realised it was a dog and had the price reduced accordingly. it had a cracked slate,


no ticker, no coin stopper tongue, no money box or timer lid. i could go on but you get the picture. so i loaded it up and got it home. the runner base was horrific;


and so I set out to repair it and to make it quieter.


Taffy

[taffy]

look at the sound deadening in it. 4mm MDF and some small patches of rubber.


the chip board bar/gate is a mess and the table is unkept.


so the table has been stripped right back to the wood. having been disappointed with a previous trial of the "new improved formula" Nitromors last time, I decided to search for the best stripper and it turned out to be slack Alice from the Maid's head!

ahem! well anyway...., I tried a new product named 'Peelaway'. I bought 5KG of it and the instructions request that as you put it on with a brush or spatchelor (sp?) you should cover it in a paper to keep the moisture in. As an ex-panel beater sprayer who's well versed in these things i thought that this was "silly" so I left the white paste all over the wood and let it go rock hard while I did a days work.

so what do I know...... yeh! you got it.

so there i am scrapping a very hard tooth paste type powder off like dripping in sweat because I'm using a breathing filter and its hard work. next i follow the instructions and cover it in this silly paper and it works really quiet well.

there's a silly liquid name 'neutraliser', with it and i ignore it and just wash, course wirewool and generally rub-adub-dub until its ready for the Danish oil. after two coats of this, a white paste comes through rather like a stallion sweating after the 200 Guinnies at Newmarket. so i rub it back down, use the nuetraliser, wash it down with copious amounts of hot water and re-oil it. yeh - what DO i know!

So i bought a slate for £12 off ebay from a pool table near me at stevenage. I had a look at Trespa but all the used panels appear to be in the North and i'll wait for it to be for sale a little nearer home.

anyway, I had the cloth here, i had the cushion rubbers here, the big type and last of their kind which sav sold me two years ago. Alen 'Turner' supplied loads of goodies and here's a straight list
4 Mushtittles with tungsten 'Jockie Wilson' impregnation but also a new improved formula (what the Tungsten, 'mush' and 'tittle' aren't enough!) and he used thinner cross wire.
a timer lid
a money box
a brass money drop plate
a coin stopper tongue
two screws for the above and springs too!
He made a headboard just for the score discs ***** (see laterRon)
Having sent the timer in, I got it back completely servcies with a new bearing and a ticker arm. The work was stunning! (spot the new bearing in the top)

the rest of the score discs
and two brass score counters which had been lost.

Taffy

[taffy]

This is the original scoreboard close up. I didn't feel transfers could stay, I then didn't want a plastic number strip so I decided to have the numbers engraved.
Well the man was amazing! firstly, the board wasn't flat and this would affect the engraving. so he planed it flat, then engraved it as requested and even lacquered it at the end and all for a tenner. ridiculous! I asked him to take more but the old fella was just so proud of his work and a thanks was enough....star man though!


the next stage was to paint in the numbers, now i know it looks like a kid did it, well deep inside, yeh, well....that's exactly what it took!


then you use a razor blade and take off all the excess paint! see! there WAS no need to be careful! just think...even YOU can do this now can't you!
I gave the old fella the font i wanted and it had an English name but i reckon he had been viz ze germans and on reflection I fell for ze old propoganda. next time I shall look a bit harder. at least it doesn't have the continental 7....


what with buffing up the brass rails i reckon it's scrubbed up well!

Taffy

[taffy]

THe 4mm MDF underboard was stripped of its wooden rails carefully, i left the staples in them and numbered the rails from the left to the right 1-10. Then, a new 6mm plywood panel was cut to shape and laid UNDER the old one. I then drilled through the nail holes to the new panel (see the previous post). I did way too many holes because with thin 1mm nails it might be necassary but with self tappers, a screw every 12" suffices. anyway, I cut the carpet underlay to shape first and then laying underneath while someone placed the rails, I screwed throuth the panel from below to hold the rails down. The felt goes right out past the edges to kill sound escaping anywhere except the ball run and holes.

you can see it but the 45d angled wood at the top of the table for the top 5 holes also has a part to play.  


the ski drops take away noise AND speed up the balls to the same speed as a Jelks. it's a must really and it only took 2 hours to make 4 of them. not only is there no noise but the balls are travelling at a good speed, that speed is then lost because of the drag that carpet underlay brings.



The same base wood was cut as a squares piece and screwed in from the sides. the MDF was socked in hot water for 60 seconds and then screwed to the bases front edge, then it was pressed into the gap between the cross bar and the base to get the desired curve. You can also just see excess MDF above the cross bar, this can be trimmed to avoid the ring in the top of the table.


Taffy

[taffy]

Although the underlay quietens it off some, there's still several biffs and bangs with the Sams! The front board takes a whallop and then the ball bounces back and hits the edge of the hardwood tray before falling and rolling to hit the front of the tray.

So the first task was to bring the ball tray back under the table by 19mm using 9-ply blocks, before it was.....


and afterwards it was....

But look at that chipped wood on the top edge of the first ball run! that is all done by balls bouncing back from the front board.

I also shortened the runner board by 25mm in the middle 90% (see next post diagram). The only place I didn't shorten it was in the corners so that the runner board rests against the table legs in the corner. all the runners were also shortened to avoid the tray dividers. I had just enough overlap of the tray wood and the table leg to be able to screw into the leg right on the back edge.


this means that as the balls roll down it falls off the edge sooner and is dropping to go straight out. They DO hit the front board but now the balls avoid the hardwood edge of the ball tray. so one noise out of 3 is eradicated.

Taffy

[taffy]

The diagram come photo below shows the finkin behind it. such a simple change to do and no cost or alteration to the table.


On to the slate. As pool slate is so strong, all i need to do was to cut the slate and bond on these strips of wood. no screws and no drilling required.



I use a crude hole cutter with a pilot drill and then as soon as it is down 2-3mm i transfer to a diamond cutter. the 60mm cutter actually cuts 60.5mm and because the Saffron red coloured rings are 61.5mm, i have ordered a 61mm diamond cutter from China which gets here on or around the 26th of this month. I hope this will amount to a 61.5mm hole and that the size is right....

This week I'll be quietening down the gate (bar) and clothing out the ball tray and even the money box as this quietens the ticker. I've had two pubs in a month site "noise" as the reason that they didn't want a table. citing diners as not wanting to hear it all.

The holes are an exact replica of the Sams you may have seen on YouTube EXCEPT that i have brought the 200 hole back a further 20mm still (making it about 60-70mm in total). the cushions will go out a further 3mm each side which is on top of the 4mm they moved with Sams1. all these changes allow the cue ball to come out of the top corner and directly back at the 200 hole I hope. we will see. It also changes the position of 'the spot' and again it becomes nearer to being the 3-pin spot and not the 4-pin spot in terms of distance.

Taffy

[taffy]

recent work on the Sams has centered around getting the balls back fast and quietly. So the first thing i did was rotary file these archways by hand at the back of the board. they aren't visible at all from the front. the balls only just clip the top OR they miss but the ski drops will make the balls hit the wood for sure.


So I have just done some testing with some bean bags as i figured that sand, well, bean bags are the ultimate absorber of energy. now before you 'titter centuwion and start whigging me and weleasing woderwick the wobber'; these bean bags are gone and a purpose made bit of kit is being sewn locally. there's no bang, just a "tisss' noise.

so I know you are on the edge of your seats but you're just going to have ton wait OK! But from these tests, the balls only tapped the bean bags and barely impeded them, rather like walking and catching your shoulder on a branch. very pleased with it. Now if you are used to no underlay, you can't understand why the balls aren't doing 30mph, if you are used to the underlay, you'll know that the balls speed slows considerably due to the drag.


On the outside, I bonded in 2 wedges of wood in each ball drop. they are about 17mm tall and fade to nothing out of site. there are many advantages here. firstly, the angle is shallow and the balls are slowing so they won't clatter your hand. secondly, by raising the balls, they are easier to pick up. remember that i now have 19mm less room to pick them up as the whole ball tray went back under the table 19mm. thirdly, the wood is substantial and helps quieten this area. It has since had the carpet underlay (on top to the front edge) and green baize felting done (around and underneath as normal).....all good! Note the 'horse sweating' in the wood still..... gone again until the next time.....

the above photo just doesn't do justice to the difference in height as one ball is against one side and one against the other causing an optical illusion.


Taffy

[taffy]

The table is now just about finished, i've had major trouble with the cloth being chopped off by the rings as they were tapped in. because the slate had to be drilled by myself first to 61mm which came out at around 61.3mm. I then bought another cutter at 62mm and managed to just locate the cutter inside each hole and take them out to 62.4mm. that is what they cut at but that is not the whole story, for the first 3-5mm the holes are more like 62.7 and then come back to 62.1mm.

So i bought some rotary flapper wheels at P40 grit and 80mm in diameter. this had to be screwed into the hole but the work it did was over in 15 seconds! it was the business! the holes are now around 62.6-62.8mm internally and the rings a really good tight fit.


the rings, the fire red ones (saffron in colour) have a sharp edge and managed to chop the cloth off in some holes. I then removed the rings, had the sharp lip (they all seem to have them) machined off and this time they slide in and then needed a good tap. so with a modern cloth about 62.6-62.8mm seems good - and get rid of that sharp edge halfway down!

I got the bespoke bean bag back and have initially pinned it with noticeboard pins. they are brilliant and the balls, as said, just 'catch' them rather than stop, there's no other noise than a small 'Tsss'. each time. the amount of bean bags used (at £1.50 a bag) was 2/3 of one bag! I have another 8 if anyone wants any!


The Ski drops took just 2 hours to make and 20-minutes to fit and are a must. notice the 'tongue' on top with felt on it. if the wood and felt get too near the pocket ring you just snip a little off!

there's just no noise underneath now. because i put old baize in the coin box, even the ticker can't be heard. all you can hear is the gate drop.

I bought some BA thread wing nuts and fitted one of those.


cheers

Taffy

[taffy]

I'm sure many a table repairer has had trouble getting the gate right but this one is perfection so worth telling you about.
the pivot is UNDER the gate. so the action is in an arc. the lever on the timer is absorbed INTO the board and because of this, the groove for it stops about 5mm ahead of the lever. it means when someone pulls the lever HARD for a game, the lever pulls the board up but the board stops from flipping over.

when it drops, it falls into the cut-outs previously made in the runners and stop means stop for the balls.


the head of the table has been given a hinged scores board.


but like all non-Jelks and Rileys etc, we can never hope to seal off the top 5 holes for the last shot (Colin!).

cheers

Taffy

[daveuk1]

Taffy why the fleck do we wanna seal off the top 5 holes? There are 9 holes on the table, are you trying to tell us not only do we take a pin off the table for the last ball shot we also take off some holes to?
Let's face it four pin rules came first, 3 pin adapted tables for their game. If three pin had been first then score boards wouldn't stop at 9990 they would go on to silly scores

Ducks down low waiting for all the abuse

[taffy]

Colin wants us to aim at only the 100 or 200 hole. Now, darn sarf, they can block off the top 5 with the headboard of a Jelks. they put the mushrooms down the 50s and remove the 100 skittle and off they go.

we can't, we use Sams, they have fixed headboards, so do Riley's and M & Bs. so we would have to pull a coat off the hook and throw it over the top 5 or employ Jack Russell as wicket keeper. I dunno, you tell me? I have pointed this out in our group PM but no comment.

Taffy

[dillon]

Jun 11, 2019 12:52:17 GMT taffy said:

Colin wants us to aim at only the 100 or 200 hole. Now, darn sarf, they can block off the top 5 with the headboard of a Jelks. they put the mushrooms down the 50s and remove the 100 skittle and off they go.

we can't, we use Sams, they have fixed headboards, so do Riley's and M & Bs. so we would have to pull a coat off the hook and throw it over the top 5 or employ Jack Russell as wicket keeper. I dunno, you tell me? I have pointed this out in our group PM but no comment.

Taffy

I don't remember anyone ever folding down the hinged back plate and I play on Jelkes tables most of the time. Unless you are the sort of numpty that hits the ball at pool or Snooker pace, it never gets that far anyway. The scorer always stands up at this stage for just that rvetality anyway. This is a sort of 'contrived' difficulty and I fail to see the problem. Because there is none! 😁

[taffy]

I don't play three pin, but I saw a game once where someone dropped the back board, put the mushrooms down the holes and they got on with it.

and you obviously haven't seen me playing a hit and hope then....

Taffy is correct ! AEBBA Rule 108 (applicable only to 3-pin of course) specifically mentions the back five holes being 'guarded'.   Quote:

108) If only one ball remains, either in the rack or on the table, the break score should be recorded before the last shot is played. The last ball must then be played from the centre of the "D" into either the 100 or the 200 hole OFF ONE SIDE CUSHION. This is known as the ‘Last ball shot’. Before playing the last ball shot the white skittles should be placed in the 50 holes and the top holes guarded. If the ball strikes a skittle in the 50 hole, and falls into the 100 or 200 hole, the score will not count. Both players should continue to play the last ball shot alternately until the ball is potted or the black peg is knocked down.

It seems logical to me that the design of the mushrooms would suggest that they cover the 50's for the final shot, but I like Norwich's idea of leaving the red 'shroom standing to guard the 100, making it a more difficult shot than the 200 as finding the correct angle for entry requires a bit of 'side'.

[gandalf the untidy]

Jun 11, 2019 12:52:17 GMT taffy said:

Colin wants us to aim at only the 100 or 200 hole. Now, darn sarf, they can block off the top 5 with the headboard of a Jelks. they put the mushrooms down the 50s and remove the 100 skittle and off they go.

we can't, we use Sams, they have fixed headboards, so do Riley's and M & Bs. so we would have to pull a coat off the hook and throw it over the top 5 or employ Jack Russell as wicket keeper. I dunno, you tell me? I have pointed this out in our group PM but no comment.

Taffy

don't know where this came from taffy...? but for 3 pin as soon as the ball passes the 100 hole the scorer grabs it as if it was made of gold!

[taffy]

I don't want to talk about rules here. I put enough effort into this table with enough fresh ideas that it warranted but didn't receive a single comment. so leave it like that. infact its bloody ruined now... Dave you are such a....ROBIN!!!!!

Taffy

[barbelman]

Taffy

It has gone into the annals of table maintenance which is one of the things this Forum is for, so don't be downhearted about the lack of feedback!

By the way, it was common practice at one time to fold the backboard down and out the pegs in the 50s, but as Colin said no one really does it anymore.

I have edited your previous post slightly for language btw.... 

well done
Tony

Jun 12, 2019 10:32:02 GMT barbelman said:

By the way, it was common practice at one time to fold the backboard down and out the pegs in the 50s, but as Colin said no one really does it anymore.

Also, the (smaller) SAMS backboards - and indeed those supplied by Bar Billiards (Kent) to replace Jelks ones with damaged fixings - were designed to serve the same purpose: they are fitted with wooden dowel pegs to slot into holes and the board lifts out to cover the end holes.....as has been said, if people can be bothered !

[daveuk1]

Jun 12, 2019 10:32:02 GMT barbelman said:

I have edited your previous post slightly for language btw.... 

well done
Tony

Hmm does that mean I wasn't infact a robin?

[daveuk1]

Tommo im a ickle confuzzled now after reading rule 108.

Are you saying three pin is the same as snooker in that a foul on the last ball ends the game?

I know it's highly unlikely in 3 pin as scores are normally high, but there could be a time when there is just the last ball left, player 1 has 50 points and player 2 has 160 points. Player 1 has the last ball, a white so he needs the 200 to win, he goes for the 200, knocks the black down but doesn't sink the ball, he loses all his score but is still only 160 behind so could still win if he gets the 200 on another attempt. But the last part of rule 108 says " both players should continue to play the last ball shot alternatively until the ball is potted or the black peg knocked down" to me that means when the black is knocked over it's end of game although in theory there could still be enough points available for that player to win.

Taffy on the AEBBA tables the score boards are not even attached to the tables they are on stands beside. I think they hope their players are less heavy handed than us and will gently roll the ball off the side cushion with only just enough pace to reach the 100 hole. It still seems silly to me why when you have all those holes on the table you limit the last ball to going down a choice of just 2 holes. But hey hoe what do us 4 pinners know.

Yes, the rule as it reads is unequivocal, though it's one of a handful that a high percentage of the 3-pin world seem to be unaware of.

The thinking behind the two-hole shootout is that it often leads to an exciting duel, with one player taking the cautious option of the 100 if that's all he/she needs to win and the other having to 'go big' to win - with the accompanying pitfall to avoid.

The 'game ends with the first black' addition is to avoid the last-ball shootout dragging on for too long: in the circumstance above, quite often players have 7 or 8 attempts each, leading to a tense atmosphere.

[barbelman]

Jun 12, 2019 13:40:08 GMT daveuk1 said:

Jun 12, 2019 10:32:02 GMT barbelman said:

I have edited your previous post slightly for language btw.... 

well done
Tony

Hmm does that mean I wasn't infact a robin?

Very close.....