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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 13, 2007 12:21:18 GMT
Always a grey area. You will NEVER see me touching the table if the ball is hanging on the edge of a hole.
In the old Canterbury league where I learned my trade, you were foul shotted if you did not take your hands off the table.
I've certainly seen balls drop, accidentally or deliberately, that would not have and should not have counted if the player ahd not been leaning on the table.
What do you think.
Sav
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Post by Q on Feb 13, 2007 14:10:51 GMT
Difficult one to call Sav. I agree that any deliberate moving of the table should be classified as a foul, but where do you draw the line? You cant say that touching the table constitutes a foul, that would be too harsh and put too much pressure on the scorer to call, after all, if a ball is hanging you can create as much movement by removing your hand ;) not that I have ever done such a thing, but I have seen it done. I think the only way would be to have the foul called by the opposing player, and then legislated by the scorer, but again, WHAT PRESSURE. AND thinking about it, that would provide a perfect way of the opponent time-wasting if he/she is in the lead ;)
I'll leave it up to you ??? ??? ???
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2007 14:48:59 GMT
As I see it, disturbance to the table is in such circumstance being caused by an "external influence". There should be a separate rule which covers that, I believe it requires the scorer to replace the balls to the exact position before the incident happened. And if the scorer considers a "deliberate foul" to have been made, the additional rule for that comes into effect also.
Timewasting can always be overcome by extra time being awarded at the scorer's discretion : for example at the recent Redhill Invitation, a table light was dislodged - purely by accident, I hasten to add- and came crashing down onto the table. The opponents were behind by more than 2000, but if the margin had been less, I as scorer would have allowed them the extra two minutes that it took to reposition the light to try and catch their target.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 13, 2007 14:51:31 GMT
Once a player has played a shot they should not stand leaning against the table, that's the whole point.
If a ball is coming to a halt close to the edge of a hole I ALWAYS lift my hands from the table before it stops.
As you say someone leans against the table and then rocks it pushing off to stand upright again and the ball falls, seen it so many times.
T'aint difficult to lift you hands off the table when you see the situation arising.
Sav.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2007 15:05:36 GMT
Difficult to enforce, Sav, putting extra onus on the scorer - there is also a fine line between what is a push shot and what is not.
A very well known player who has been in the final of Opens started for years doing what I would call push shots. And a member of my own team on Wednesday nights has an off-balance stance whereby he is always leaning forward onto the table. I would not like to try telling someone with such a glorious career how to play after thirty-odd years !
Best IMHO to leave it to scorer's discretion as to whether obvious foul play has occurred - otherwise people could become paranoic just because they're losing and start clutching at straws.
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Post by bigtj on Feb 13, 2007 20:17:47 GMT
This does not only have to apply to leaning on the table as I have known a very experienced player ( not now playing ) who used to rattle the balls in the trough under the guise of looking for the red for his opponent when a ball was hanging close tom the pocket. Again calls on the scorers judgement to call a foul.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 13, 2007 23:28:10 GMT
Leaving it to the scorer its the cowards way out in my view.
I have played this game for over 40 years and have only ever once seen the scorer have the courage to foul shot a player for rocking the table as the ball teetered on the edge of the hole. I've seen a damn site more games won by players leaning against the table with the ball on the edge of the hole, ooops did it drop????.
Has anyone else ever seen a player foul shotted for rocking the table?? don't tell me it doesn't happen!!
Simple rule, play shot, lift hands from table.
Sav.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2007 23:57:23 GMT
Leaving it to the scorer its the cowards way out in my view. I have played this game for over 40 years and have only ever once seen the scorer have the courage to foul shot a player for rocking the table Come off it, Sav, with competent, firm, fair scorers there'll not be a problem. Your scorers sound - to put it politely - lily-livered. We don't have out and out cheats in the way you describe in our neck of the woods - oh no sir ! But I will admit that we suffer from less-than-competent scorers sometimes, and when they cock a single game up in three separate ways (as has happened to me this season) you begin to wonder if it's deliberate. >:(
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 14, 2007 0:18:15 GMT
Come off it, Sav, with competent, firm, fair scorers there'll not be a problem. Your scorers sound - to put it politely - lily-livered. We don't have out and out cheats in the way you describe in our neck of the woods - oh no sir ! Tommo my friend, you live in cloud cuckoo land if you can honestly say we don't have cheats in bar billiards. This rule is to protect the fair players from the cheats. Sorry if this sounds candid but we are setting rules. LOL Sav
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Post by Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.) on Feb 14, 2007 0:24:20 GMT
Tommo it is OK saying you can't teach someone who has been playing for 30 years to change their way of playing, it is simple if its in the rules they have no choice. The rules we are talking about are relating to All England competitions, whether your league choose to use the same rules will be your decision if your scorers are not competent. I have seen this too many times too, as Sav is stating and I must admit after talking a lot with him in Kent, I have started doing very similar, particularly on an under-hit break shot. I am not accusing anyone of delibrate cheating in this way but will admit I have probably shook a wobbly table by accident before and maybe gained advantage from it. Most people know me as being a very honest player as most players are but I think if there is a clear rule that states if a ball has a possibility of stopping on the edge of the hole then the player must be clear of the table when it drops. It gives the scorer a fairer chance then IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2007 11:13:18 GMT
Well I didn't quite say that there are no cheats in the game, but locally 98% of any cheating would be with the scorer: putting the player off by not concentrating when it's your go, but showing interest when it's the opponent's; putting the score on the wrong side accidentally-on-purpose; doing you out of a thousand; adding 180 on to 980 and only making it 1060 - you get the picture ?
I agree though that at a high level, with plenty at stake, a player could wish to win so intensely he might have recourse to cheating - but next year I too will have been playing 40 years, and in all that time I've only seen what you describe done once.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 14, 2007 11:26:45 GMT
Strangely enough it happened in our league match last week.
The player 'accidentally' gave the table a real clump as he stood up from leaning on the table and he's a big lad. The ball on the edge of the fifty dropped and off he went again.
Nothing in the rules to penalise him.
Sav.
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Post by Chris_Sav on Feb 23, 2007 19:43:49 GMT
31. If the balls are disturbed in any way other than in the normal course of play, then the scorer should replace the balls in what he/she considers to be their original positions and play should continue.
This rule probably already covers most of it if applied by the scorer.
Could be given more muscle with if, in the opinion of the scorer, a ball on the edge of the hole falls due to any accidental or deliberate table movement by the player, that the ball be replaced and will not count.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2007 20:25:38 GMT
Add four words at the end : "........and end of break" and I agree 100%.
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Post by Sparky on Feb 23, 2007 21:52:18 GMT
Sounds good and would have been useful some years ago when, allegedly, a player from a different league took a ball from the tray and banged it down hard enough to make the other ball drop and cooly continued the break and therefore beat a very annoyed Lorraine, always assuming the scorer knows and follows the rules :-/
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Post by NigelS on Feb 23, 2007 23:26:45 GMT
Sounds good and would have been useful some years ago when, allegedly, a player from a different league took a ball from the tray and banged it down hard enough to make the other ball drop and cooly continued the break and therefore beat a very annoyed Lorraine, always assuming the scorer knows and follows the rules :-/ Would I be right in saying that was against Brighton E at the Bell? I played for that team (first year I played interleague) and It was Steve Palmer who was accused of committing the dirty deed and he was definitely playing a woman. Seem to remeber it causing a furore at the time, it was about 8 years ago I reckon
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Post by Sparky on Feb 24, 2007 14:18:16 GMT
Hi Nige
I didn't think it was an Interleague game but will check, although it certainly caused a stir at the time but I only mentioned it as an example of the positive effect such a rule could have in future rather than wanting to open old wounds.
Graham
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