Bournemouth 2020 - competition format.

Hello,

I'm aware that there has been some 'rumblings' in the wider Bar Billiards community that there may be changes to the competition format for the upcoming Bournemouth event. I'd like to clarify what has been discussed, why and invite you to offer your opinions so that everybody who wants their view to be heard can have it.


Yes - it is true that we have been considering a change of event format.

Over the last two years, a number of people have mentioned to me that our flagship competition does not offer players as many opportunities to play as they’d like. In many cases players can play on the Saturday morning, again in the second round or plate on the Saturday afternoon, and then have no further participation in the event. This is part of the reason why so many leave immediately after breakfast on the Sunday morning and that the grand final is typically played in front of fewer than 10 people (4 of those are packing tables away!). It was suggested that creating more opportunities to play and giving more people the chance to play on the Sunday would help people feel that they are actively engaged in the event and may help to safeguard it into the future. It is possible that people prefer to go into town etc. because they are not engaged or participating in the event. If true, we are obliged to do something about that.

As an association we have sought to be prepared to change this event by considering all of the implications on people’s time, investing in two further tables to ensure that a new format could be created without extending the playing time significantly.

Of course, with any suggested change, it creates an unhappy environment for some who like things as they are. I recognise that all too clearly. Of the many accusations that have come my way in the last two years or so, many of them are as a result of seeking to make changes.

I have therefore asked Nigel to cease planning the event format for the time being so that I can invite the views of those who use the Proboards forum. I will also post something for those who prefer to engage using alternate channels.

Once you have expressed your view, I will ask Dave & Nigel to consider this before publishing the final format and conducting the draw. It is intended that the draw be completed at the upcoming Oxford Open, so please ensure - if you want to have your say - that you do so long before then.

Let me restate - the reason for considering any change was prompted by requests from players, the reason for not making any changes will also be determined by players if that is the case.

Lorin

[jordans]

Hi Lorin

Before making any comments can you tell me what the proposed changes are please?

Thanks
Dawn

Jan 25, 2020 11:42:47 GMT jordans said:

Hi Lorin

Before making any comments can you tell me what the proposed changes are please?

Thanks
Dawn

Good point! There is little sport in making everyone guess.

It was requested that we introduce Groups at the early stage of the event so that all pairs play a minimum of four matches rather than two. There would be groups of four pairs who play a round robin and therefore three times two-legged matches.

Based on a 64 pair format, the top two pairs of each group would play in the last 32 KO stage of the main competition. The remaining two pairs would enter the last 32KO stage of the plate competition.

From this point, it is as previous years with a fixed draw KO played over two legs until the semi final stage which moves to four legs.

The plate KO is as previous years.

[JOZIL]

Think it's a brilliant idea!! I know last year after paying however much for the whole weekend was out by 2pm on Saturday only playing 2 games makes the Sunday a waste of time not suprised people go home early!! Nearly every open is on a Sunday and plenty enjoy turning up and playing so I dont see a problem with more games being played and more people playing on the sunday!! Think we need to look at the bigger picture and involve more people in the competition for a longer period of time :)

[curtd]

More games for everyone so what’s not to like ?? Sounds like a good idea to me .

Also nothing wrong with trying something different. If it works then great. If not , there’s time to discuss for next year .

Curt

[Chris_Sav]

Just a word of caution in making changes so late in the day, Everyone has booked expecting the standard format.

Bournemouth is a family weekend as well as bar billiards and we have 154 guests and 11 children staying. Only 111 of those are playing bar billiards. Many are there for the social weekend with friends/family.

Many of those guests are not likely to be the ones reading this forum either, without the non players we would not have a competition as we could not fill the hotel. We also have time for quizzes/race nights/disco etc.

I think contemplating change (as always) is an excellent idea but carefully and with proper debate. Just make certain the uniqueness of the Bournemouth weekend is not lost. Players need some idea of the timescale of the proposed groups. I'm assuming any changes would be made around current meal times.

The current table load the van has taken to Bournemouth is the absolute maximum it can safely and legally carry. To carry two more tables will prove a logistics problem.

Jan 25, 2020 15:05:55 GMT Chris_Sav said:

The current table load the van has taken to Bournemouth is the absolute maximum it can safely and legally carry. To carry two more tables will prove a logistics problem.

A plan to transport the additional tables is already in place if required.

[triplex]

I think it’s a fantastic idea and fully agree with the change. I heard many a time when people have said on the Saturday “Well that’s us finished, so may as well go home” it was probably meant in jest but even so, it’s still said. Extending it to more games for the same price seems good value for money to me.

AEBBA has my vote for change.

[Chunky Monkeys other half]

I think groups could put off lesser players. Getting stuffed by 3 pairs rather than 2. As much as I don’t mind losing that could be mind-numbingly boring. We tend to support other players in our group and would tie up too much time
I myself like the social aspect of the weekend it’s not just the billiards
Just my humble opinion

[bigtj]

I agree with Sandra it is about the whole weekend and as much as I can appreciate the idea of groups and the extra games I enjoy the present format and personally stay the Sunday to watch the final stages.

How would groups affect the timings, I am assuming we would still have the same meal times and the evening entertainment??

If you are looking for a vote then I am going to go with the groups just as it gives people more games and again it does give better value for money.

[barbelman]

It's unique within bar billiards tournaments in that many non or part-time players have a go.  Groups will deter them from playing and destroy the uniqueness and the relaxed atmosphere.

Leave it as it is gets my 'vote'

[tysoo]

As a player who’s only been playing a few years and been to Bournemouth the last few years I think it’s a great idea to give newcomers like myself the chance to play more than 2 games.Even though the weekend is great as it is the chance to play more games will not only help improve newcomers but also keep them interested in the whole weekend.
I fully support the new format and hope this goes ahead.

[jordans]

I personally don’t mind it as I go for the Bar Billiards and the more games the better

BUT

…surely as everyone has now paid it is too late to change it for this year. What if the changes go ahead and someone decides they do not want to play in the new format, are AEBBA going to be happy to refund them their money? Also, this is quite a big change to an AEBBA competition, should this not be put as a proposal at the AGM?

I book for quite a large party, and will put this to them all tomorrow and let you know the general opinion.

[barbelman]

Jan 26, 2020 17:58:11 GMT jordans said:

I personally don’t mind it as I go for the Bar Billiards and the more games the better

There!  I thought you only went for the horse racing Dawn.....   

[jordans]

🤣🤣 very funny Mr Willis.

I would hope that any changes that are made would not affect meal times and the entertainment- that's all part of an already enjoyable weekend 🙂

[SirKT]

CHANGE - Some people just don't like it, others embrace it.

Hi everyone, it would be nice to get some more comments from regular or non players on this subject. I am pretty sure Lorin would welcome more feedback.

Our wonderful game is on the decline and has been for some time now, so any ideas or support to keep it going and increase numbers and enjoyment are welcome.
The Bournemouth Pairs weekend is the All England flagship event of the year and over the last few years, like some of the County Opens, numbers have fluctuated. Maybe it's because players have got bored of the current format, maybe not, but I for one think a change could help get the numbers back up. It worked in Jersey for the World Championships, there was another slight increase last year. So why wouldn't it work here ? We have a lot more players. If we introduce it this year and the general feeling is against it, then we change back next year, simple.
Yes I do agree in hindsight that something should have been mentioned on the entry form. Would it have made a difference to entries, i'm not so sure.
The ones that come for a social weekend will still have that and a couple more games of Bar Billiards as well. With two extra tables, I don't think it will run much later.
Another plus for groups is that it could help with scorers (if they aren't all on at the same time of course).

We just want our great game to continue, so it's worth looking at how we can sustain numbers and even grow

[milhouse]

I am sure some people have been waiting for me to put my 2p worth in
My feelings are well known on the residency rules, so i am not going to go into that conversation, even though i do think it would help with numbers.

As people have said before, change is always met with various difference of opinion. As we all know, there are a fair few "part-time" players who enter this tournament and when you have a straight knockout, this may be all the gametime they want. Plus, with a straight knockout, most of the "top players" will just get enough to win and then tap-up (not running the table out). The problem with group games is that your score may count to go through, so this will then mean you need to try and score as much as possible against these "lesser" players - how are they going to enjoy that in possibly 2 or 3 group games? I am sure that will put them off entering in the future?
Also, with people concerned about timings with meals/entertainment, maybe there could be a bit more clarity around the timings involved with these changes?

[shaggy]

Tap up .........
I don't think I have ever seen you do that mark.

[NigelS]

As people have asked for what the timings would be - here is what the initial schedule looked like for 12 tables

SATURDAY
10.00 - 3.15 - GROUP MATCHES. 7 series where each pair would play 3 games
3.30 - 5.00 - PLATE R1 & MAIN R1. 2 series of matches

So first day finishing approx 5pm

SUNDAY (32 of the 56 pairs still involved)
Play starts at 10.30am
Semi Finals approx 1pm
Final approx 2.30
Finish around 4pm

[Chris_Sav]

Seven series from 1030 takes you to 1545 at the normal 45 minutes per series, I can't see 40 minutes per series being maintained.

Is there room for the extra tables? from my memory of setting them up it's fairly tight with nine.

Can anybody tell me where have the mysterious two extra two tables came from? and which kind benefactor paid for them please?

Groups have been well received elsewhere and should be tried, if it can be done without upsetting this year's guests, players and non-players. 
 

[NigelS]

Jan 28, 2020 9:45:39 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Seven series from 1030 takes you to 1545 at the normal 45 minutes per series, I can't see 40 minutes per series being maintained.

Should be 10am start Sav, that makes the 3.15 group finish.

[triplex]

I fully understand that people do have reasons for not backing this change and have no problem with that at all, I may agree with some.
My concern is that people are working very hard behind the scenes trying to find new ways of improving and boosting the game we all love.

We have made various changes in our league in Northants and I can say that yes we had a few eyebrows lift and mumbles to start with but everyone now can see that it was for the good of the game. In the last few years we have managed to increase the number of players, added at least 4 new tournaments and saw for the first time in years and increase to the number of teams in our league. Now I don't think that the Northants committee should get all the praise for this, it should be given to all the players in our league for supporting us while we made them changes.

Our game will never get back to what it used to be but we can try our best to stop it declining, but the only way is to accept changes.

Just to note this not the opinion of NBBL its mine.

[Chris_Sav]

Cheers Nigel,

This also means four 250 mile journeys with the van instead of two. Has anyone seriously thought about a team waiting six hours or more on Sunday for poor old Dave (or anyone else) to return from Totteridge to help load the van a second time.

That's also adding a good £100 in Diesel to the costs of the weekend let alone the wear and tear on Dave. 

Good idea it may be but I just do not think this has been thought through.

 

[alan]

My feeling is that the majority of people would be happier playing more games and, as Kevin said, groups should help with scoring. The pairs in the groups will be able to score all the group games won’t they? If so, this should lessen the time to play games as the Admin Desk won’t be continuously searching for scorers.

This tournament is the only one I usually attend, although I did take in Jersey last year and thought the groups were a good idea. I go for the Bar Billiards and the social side and, as long as the proposed change doesn’t affect the social side, surely the more games the better!

Something to think about!......With "groups of pairs" you probably won’t get so many “upsets” as usual as, if a top pair gets beat in one game, they will have other games to make amends and qualify. Maybe then though, the Plate will be won by a less strong pair……...interesting!!

My vote: Try it and then revert back if it isn’t successful.

Jan 28, 2020 10:48:09 GMT Chris_Sav said:

Cheers Nigel,

This also means four 200 mile journeys with the van instead of two. Has anyone seriously thought about a team waiting six hours or more on Sunday for poor old Dave (or anyone else) to return from Oxford to help load the van a second time.

That's also adding a good £100 in Diesel to the costs of the weekend let alone the wear and tear on Dave. 

Good idea it may be but I just do not think this has been thought through.

 

No it doesn't. As I've already told you - there is a plan in place if these tables are required.

[Chris_Sav]

 OK. What's the cunning plan for us Victor Meldrews of the world?

[barbelman]

In these days of artificial 'super-pairs' groups will certainly make surprises less frequent and it would be a shame to take away that little bit jeopardy that goes with any pairs comp!

Anyway, well done everyone for your opinions and thanks to the AEBBA for asking.

At the end of the day it's the committee's decision and indeed their responsibility to work out the viability of logistics and the practicality of the proposal.  I'm sure we will be happy to try whatever they decide.

[Chris]

I had 6 people come up to me on Sunday at Redhill and say they want groups.

I explained that I was only supporting collecting entries and rooming.

AEBBA will decide.

I think this must be taken in though to the count as it was a high number and it was just they sought me out not me asking.

[kjingram]

Personally, I am a fan of the proposed change as I always prefer a guaranteed more games format. I also believe it should create a fairer outcome of the groups - stronger pairs should be more likely to proceed to the main. This in turn would also mean those in the plate are less likely to come up against stronger pairs.

Pros and cons in my opinion;

Benefits;
- More games
- Group stage Scoring can be done by non- playing pairs in group.
- Fairer results of those that proceed in main / plate
- More chance of a fair draw (difficult and less difficult draw) - nothing worse for a developing player to know they are pretty much knocked out before they start because of a tough draw.
- More people still playing on the Sunday
- Opportunity for live draw following results??

Negatives:
- Those looking for a family weekend away get less of this opportunity.
- Less surprise upsets possible.

I believe that yes, some people may be put off coming to Bournemouth due to the changed format, but equally some people mag be more inclined to attend because of the guaranteed more games - it will just depend on whether an individuals preference of an All England Competition is being more about the Bar Billiards or a Family Weekend away.

Although 100% I would like to play the proposed format at this years comp, I do think it needs the vote at the AGM instead of changing it for this years competition.

Jan 30, 2020 19:02:18 GMT kjingram said:

Personally, I am a fan of the proposed change as I always prefer a guaranteed more games format. I also believe it should create a fairer outcome of the groups - stronger pairs should be more likely to proceed to the main. This in turn would also mean those in the plate are less likely to come up against stronger pairs.

Pros and cons in my opinion;

Benefits;
- More games
- Group stage Scoring can be done by non- playing pairs in group.
- Fairer results of those that proceed in main / plate
- More chance of a fair draw (difficult and less difficult draw) - nothing worse for a developing player to know they are pretty much knocked out before they start because of a tough draw.
- More people still playing on the Sunday
- Opportunity for live draw following results??

Negatives:
- Those looking for a family weekend away get less of this opportunity.
- Less surprise upsets possible.

I believe that yes, some people may be put off coming to Bournemouth due to the changed format, but equally some people mag be more inclined to attend because of the guaranteed more games - it will just depend on whether an individuals preference of an All England Competition is being more about the Bar Billiards or a Family Weekend away.

Although 100% I would like to play the proposed format at this years comp, I do think it needs the vote at the AGM instead of changing it for this years competition.

It is very good to hear a range of feedback - I'm sure Dave & Nigel will take this into account when formatting the event.

To be clear, if an AGM vote is required for the format of each event, proposals will need to be submitted to first create a set of rules regarding the Bournemouth and most of the other AEBBA event formats. They don't exist just now, deliberately. This is so there is flexibility for organisers to try to create the very best event for participants subject to the number of entries. Where entries are really high, straight KO events tend to be more practical. Where entries are low or time is less of a factor, groups offer players more opportunities to play. If it is the desire of the BB community to embed rules and AGM votes for the formats of events you will leave zero flexibility for tournament organisers. Particularly given that rules may only then be modified at a further AGM. This would hamstring the organisers to the point of making events far less attractive. I would strongly warn against that.