StuC
Distinguished Member
Posts: 747
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Post by StuC on Jun 25, 2020 8:38:10 GMT
We could be in danger of ending up in a form of paralysis where we try and achieve a perfect solution that does not currently exist. I think we can all agree that in an ideal world we would pick up again as we were playing before lockdown, however the guidance, even from 4th July, will not allow this. I am not trying to be negative, but to assess what the best way forward is within the current situation as we build to a return to a normality. For some this may not be fast enough but as members of associations and the bar billiards community it is important we do what is best for the game and all those for play it while sticking to the letter and spirit of the guidance, regulations and laws.
As I think has been mentioned in this thread the updated government guidelines are ambiguous on the matter on if you can play pub games (including bar billiards) from 4th July. However, one thing that is clear from the guidelines is that groups of more than two households are still banned, this I believe would make the playing of team games against this guidance. This is without issues caused for leagues with not all venue opening/keeping tables and teams not being able to field a team due to players not wanting to play or isolating. It is key we do not pressure anybody into playing and try to maintain sporting integrity in terms of games being played in a fair manner to all teams.
I would suggest the best place to start in resuming bar billiards is to organise standalone individual tournaments; similar to how most leagues run their individual competitions during the season. These could be non-title and non-ranking events, not run by any particular league, but localised to venues that would like games and opened to all players wanting and willing to play at these venues. Three games could be scheduled for each evening with players arriving at the start time of their match and leaving afterwards, and scoring the games themselves. These could be used to test the new way of playing including any hygiene measures that we choose to introduce.
With “nothing” on the line in these events nobody will miss out on a title or ranking points from not playing or having to drop out, and being an individual event nor would you let your team down; therefore it removes any pressure to play for those not wanting to. The aim would be to play these events within a relatively short time frame and then take the learnings and build on these events going forward. Hopefully, and with future relaxations in the guidance, we can return to normal league games and tournaments later in the year but these events could provide the first step to that.
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Post by Q on Jun 25, 2020 10:49:58 GMT
Did I hear different guidelines from everyone else?
What I heard was that pubs will be allowed to open 'for table service only' and I dont think they meant bar billiard table service, but it's obvious from Jim's post that what we hear on the news is just more speculation, if landlords haven't been given guidelines yet how can they be announced of the so called news
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 10:57:21 GMT
Whilst agreeing safety and lives are paramount, I was impressed by this comment from Jim: Take a social club like Roffey, for instance. Usually packed to the rafters with oldies (no offence intended) there to watch telly and the bar billiards tucked away now into a corner. Difficult one. And then pubs which are relatively deserted during the week, but are packed out at weekends. Many welcome, even rely on, mid-week bar billiards to bolster their trade.
Where I play, we will rely on our landlady to take the lead, as she is heavily involved with Pool in the other bar (a player herself) and whatever she decides will apply there in the way of distancing, matches etc will no doubt be applied to us in the (quieter) other bar.
Having said that, families and schoolkids frequent our bar during school holidays (which is why our table is covered up) and the situation will no doubt over the coming months be exacerbated by the 'School's Out till September' situation. Fortunately there is seating outside to spill out on to, and if it helps to keep the pub viable, so be it.
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grant
Full Forum Member
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Post by grant on Jun 25, 2020 11:56:53 GMT
Spot on Hev.
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alanturner
Full Forum Member
Saxophone is the only thing that gets blown , these days !
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Post by alanturner on Jun 25, 2020 13:04:15 GMT
Two local public near to were i live in Cheshire , Yes , I know bar billiards is not played in pubs around here , but pool is and both of these pubs have pool tables they are following the 2.1 part (quoted below) of keeping customers and visitors safe , Keeping indoor and soft play areas closed , these 2 pubs are advising that the pool tables will NOT BE available for customer use as social distancing around the table cannot be governed and also dual handling of the games balls during play is unavoidable . I would imagine that Bar Billiards faces the same problems ? Landlords / Mangers will not want to litigation regarding health and safety and possible future claims against them . It is a very very difficult time for them but just reopening is a major step , without the added complication of traditional games ! SAD BUT TRUE !! I know there are some on here so lets wish them all the best and support them by accepting there decisions and behaving in a common sense manner . Steps that will usually be needed: 2.1 Keeping customers and visitors safe Ensuring any changes to entrances, exits and queue management take into account reasonable adjustments for those who need them, including disabled customers. For example, maintaining pedestrian and parking access for disabled customers. Reminding customers who are accompanied by children that they are responsible for supervising them at all times and should follow social distancing guidelines. Looking at how people move through the venue and how you could adjust this to reduce congestion and contact between customers, for example, queue management or one-way flow, where possible. Planning for maintaining social distancing guidelines (2m, or 1m with risk mitigation where 2m is not viable, is acceptable) in the event of adverse weather conditions, being clear that customers cannot seek shelter indoors unless social distancing can be maintained. Working with neighbouring businesses and local authorities to consider how to spread the number of people arriving throughout the day for example by staggering opening hours; this will help reduce demand on public transport at key times and avoid overcrowding. Determining if schedules for essential services and contractor visits can be revised to reduce interaction and overlap between people, for example, carrying out services at night. Keeping indoor and soft play areas closed. For guidance on opening outdoor playgrounds safely, see guidance for managing playgrounds published by The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.
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Post by 4timeschamp on Jun 25, 2020 14:47:53 GMT
I note Stuart’s comments about two households but that can’t apply to the pub. If 10 people come into the pub all from different households I am allowed to serve them as long as they socially distance so how is that different from 10 people playing bb as long as they socially distance? We are not talking about the two sides hugging etc but playing a match at a social distance with all sanitary precautions being undertaken. Washing hands, cleaning of balls and wiping of table between each game.
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StuC
Distinguished Member
Posts: 747
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Post by StuC on Jun 25, 2020 16:32:48 GMT
I note Stuart’s comments about two households but that can’t apply to the pub. If 10 people come into the pub all from different households I am allowed to serve them as long as they socially distance so how is that different from 10 people playing bb as long as they socially distance? We are not talking about the two sides hugging etc but playing a match at a social distance with all sanitary precautions being undertaken. Washing hands, cleaning of balls and wiping of table between each game. I personally agree that in the situation you describe there is no difference, however the guidance around "indoor gatherings should only be occurring in groups of up to 2 households" is taken from the government website on the guidance for pubs (and restaurants, bars and takeaway services) published this week ahead of the 4th July reopening. So while there is no difference one of the situations is within the guidance and the other is not. Should be noted that this is the guidance and it is up to each individual landlord to decide how this applies to their establishment. As much as I would like it to be different I fail to see how ten people gathered to play a bar billiards match can be considered anything other than one group; although others may see this differently. Think we are all in the same boat of wanting to get back playing as soon as possible, it is now for us all to decide how we can do this while keeping everyone who plays safe and sticking to the current guidance from the government.
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Post by Chris on Jun 25, 2020 16:46:11 GMT
As a landlords wife, i am obviously keen for the pub to re-open and resume normal business. However, as a nurse i have seen the full impact of this virus. I have been on the front line throughout and sucumbed to the disease myself in April. Thankfully recovering and being able to go back to work to rejoin the fight against the virus. I would advise anybody who is classed as ‘vulnerable’ to avoid the stress of worrying about social distancing etc and stay safely at home. But for those who are keen to get back to a normal routine and feel the psychological benefits of socialising and a little healthy competition; i can assure you that The Stags Head, along with other pubs who are able, will follow the governments scientific guidelines stringently to ensure customers/players safety. Bar billiards will survive!! (In my pub anyway) This is absolutely excellent advice Heather but can I ask about Ball contact, how would the pub ensure no cross contact inbetween shots of a normal game unless going to half the time each with the balls washed in Miltons inbetween please ? Or wearing nitrile gloves? I too understand totally with you all but lives come First Chris x
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 16:51:48 GMT
Bear in mind too that we have only recently been changed to alert level 3 of 5, to make July 4th pub & restaurant opening possible. This has worked to plan and even better news could be forthcoming by the end of July, further easing the lockdown. By the same account it could go the other way of course, were there to be a "second spike"
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Post by little legs on Jun 25, 2020 20:02:11 GMT
As a landlords wife, i am obviously keen for the pub to re-open and resume normal business. However, as a nurse i have seen the full impact of this virus. I have been on the front line throughout and sucumbed to the disease myself in April. Thankfully recovering and being able to go back to work to rejoin the fight against the virus. I would advise anybody who is classed as ‘vulnerable’ to avoid the stress of worrying about social distancing etc and stay safely at home. But for those who are keen to get back to a normal routine and feel the psychological benefits of socialising and a little healthy competition; i can assure you that The Stags Head, along with other pubs who are able, will follow the governments scientific guidelines stringently to ensure customers/players safety. Bar billiards will survive!! (In my pub anyway) Firstly hope you weren't too bad Hev and glad you are recovering and back doing a great job , but it's a weird world as a family of key workers we can go to work , mix with 100's of people at close distance , come home and see 1000's of people not working going to a beach on a midweek with kids (who cannot go to school as it's too dangerous ) and then get told we can't go a pub and stand up , we must stay seated . Finally , yes I will follow any guideline from a landlord and abide by their rules , look forward to coming to the Stag soon , having a pint or two and having a game.
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Post by davejones on Jun 25, 2020 21:34:41 GMT
As a landlords wife, i am obviously keen for the pub to re-open and resume normal business. However, as a nurse i have seen the full impact of this virus. I have been on the front line throughout and sucumbed to the disease myself in April. Thankfully recovering and being able to go back to work to rejoin the fight against the virus. I would advise anybody who is classed as ‘vulnerable’ to avoid the stress of worrying about social distancing etc and stay safely at home. But for those who are keen to get back to a normal routine and feel the psychological benefits of socialising and a little healthy competition; i can assure you that The Stags Head, along with other pubs who are able, will follow the governments scientific guidelines stringently to ensure customers/players safety. Bar billiards will survive!! (In my pub anyway) S Well said Hev
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Post by daveuk1 on Jun 26, 2020 12:01:48 GMT
I think the only way forward is to wait. We need to let the mad rush pass and give the pubs time to sort themselves out first, after all it will be the pubs who get closed down again if things go wrong. They are the ones who have got to keep records etc. There will be problems for them iron out and I'd think playing billiards, Pool etc is low on the priority list. Pubs will be as busy as they can be to start with, people playing billiards won't bring in extra custom until the fad of pubs has dropped off.
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Post by Sir Chancelot on Jun 26, 2020 12:22:24 GMT
We are very fortunate here in Guernsey. No active cases and no new confirmed cases for 56 days. Pubs and clubs are open. People playing darts, snooker, pool and bar billiards. We re-commence our bar billiards league season on Tuesday 30th June. Champs team Hampshire Lodge will play Darren Ogier's Breakaways.
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Post by Chris on Jun 26, 2020 19:44:40 GMT
Wow Norman that is absolutely brilliant news and so so lovely to hear...
Gives us all hope x
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Post by Chris on Jun 26, 2020 19:49:01 GMT
I think the only way forward is to wait. We need to let the mad rush pass and give the pubs time to sort themselves out first, after all it will be the pubs who get closed down again if things go wrong. They are the ones who have got to keep records etc. There will be problems for them iron out and I'd think playing billiards, Pool etc is low on the priority list. Pubs will be as busy as they can be to start with, people playing billiards won't bring in extra custom until the fad of pubs has dropped off. I agree with you Dave - let the rush pass and then iron out the issues x
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 22:33:40 GMT
Just for the record, not all pubs will be re-opening on 4th July. Not all the Hall and Woodhouse ones, anyway. Here's what they have to say on the matter:
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Post by bigtj on Jun 27, 2020 7:35:57 GMT
With the long pages of guidance some pubs will not be ready to open on the 4th but it will be a staged reopening as those that still have to ensure the safety of themselves, staff and customers. It will take some getting used to the new way of working and serving. My grandson works in the catering/pub trade and his pub/restaurant will be okay if the weather continues to favour us, as they have a large outdoor area but if the weather breaks indoors they are very restricted. Even with 1 metre being allowed most will only be able to operate at about 70% capacity, the pub owners will want the tenants to start paying their rent again and some will definitely struggle.
Lets start of by supporting our bar billiards venues by going for a few drinks and not put more pressure on landlords by being overly impatient to get back playing. I along with many would love to get back playing but there are many considerations to take into account before that happens fully. At least we can ensure the survival of venues by supporting them by frequenting them from the 4th of July.
Leagues may even have to consider that we may not be able to start the 2020-21 season on time and have contingency plans in place, most landlords that I have spoken too which to keep bar billiards so maybe the 1st step when and where possible as already has been suggested some local mini events are held in safety.
Lastly lets hope people are considerate of the landlords situation and we do not see a rise in abuse towards them.
Worthing are going to shortly going to have a committee meeting to discuss our situation and ideas.
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Post by bigtj on Jun 27, 2020 7:52:26 GMT
Can I please (partly with my moderators hat on) ask that we respect others in our replies and comments. We are all entitled to our own opinions and it is great to see them being aired on the forum, but sniping at each other is not going to solve the problem of how and when our great game gets back to being played. I am one who loves playing and cannot wait to play, but have varying thoughts and concerns of how this is going to happen.
As I say please post your views and helpful suggestions but do respect others. The fact that our game has been played without disharmony and with great sportsmanship is a large reason I have always promoted and played bar billiards, we are like a 2nd family.
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Post by Sir Chancelot on Jun 28, 2020 9:26:01 GMT
I had similar ideas re 10 minutes continuous play, sanitising etc. to keep the game alive here in Guernsey. But as the pubs and clubs moved quickly to what we call 'Phase 5' under Emergency Government advice, all the thoughts and worries eased considerably in a lot of aspects of Island life. Yes we are all being careful and considerate towards others especially the vulnerable. Some people are still being shielded and others will simply just not leave their homes. Hygiene is always important especially where food is served. Covid19 is still out there and no doubt as travel rules are relaxed, more cases in Guernsey will be detected. Bar Billiards league starts up again here in Guernsey Tuesday on 30th June. Sadly, one team will not be able to conclude their remaining few fixtures due to lack of available players. We intend to conclude our 2019/2020 season and will have a finals night to end the G.B.B.A.league season.
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Post by daveuk1 on Jun 28, 2020 12:47:20 GMT
While 10 mins continous play may work in principle with 3 pin, it would surely only favour the players who can play the break shot fast. Also what happens when you fail to pot a ball or play a foul? Do you restart from the break or continue from where the balls finish? If you restart from the break, then a player who messes up and leaves a ball at the top can then just keep his break, then on his next shot play a foul to get the balls back, on the other hand if you just continue you could easily start setting yourself up for 200 and 400 shots. Although we all like to think our game is played in a sportsmanship way, there would be opportunities for players to use that option of play to there advantage. Still say we are best to wait, let the pubs sort themselves out without us putting pressure on them to restart playing.
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Post by milhouse on Jun 29, 2020 9:40:14 GMT
I have just seen notification that pool is allowed to be played in pubs/clubs.
So i would presume that Bar Billiards could also be played.
Of course, there are guidelines around cleaning balls/equipment etc.
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Post by JB on Jun 29, 2020 9:50:25 GMT
Have you got a link to this notification please
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Post by milhouse on Jun 29, 2020 10:12:56 GMT
Have you got a link to this notification please
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Post by barbelman on Jun 29, 2020 10:16:52 GMT
I have just seen notification that pool is allowed to be played in pubs/clubs. So i would presume that Bar Billiards could also be played. Of course, there are guidelines around cleaning balls/equipment etc. Is that Government guidance or a pool players decision, Mark?
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Post by JB on Jun 29, 2020 10:19:41 GMT
Thanks Mark
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Post by Chris_Sav on Jun 29, 2020 10:55:02 GMT
These are company produced opinions with no validation. There are no government guidelines that I can find, Just company advice for and against the idea of playing pool, Brewers Fayre for example are closing all their pool tables because they consider they cannot be used safely. www.brewersfayre.co.uk/en-gb/frequently-asked-questions. I suggest we wait until we hear definitively as indoor sports are classified as unsafe in the only references I can find. I have registered the question with the government information portal and they are supposed to reply within three working days.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 11:00:24 GMT
Is that Government guidance or a pool players decision, Mark? Article produced by BACTA in response to Govt recent announcement. Whether or not this is in full compliance is up for debate ... But at the moment it's all we have !
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Post by Chris_Sav on Jun 29, 2020 13:56:46 GMT
Think you'll find these are guidelines produced by an association with a vested interest in people paying to use their tables. The Brewers Fayre site says the exact opposite. Believe what you want on the internet!
If I hear back from the mandarins at Whitehall (have had acknowledgement) this forum will be the first to know.
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Post by daveuk1 on Jun 29, 2020 14:11:40 GMT
Spoke to a GK BDM this morning, their guidelines to pub games. Darts OK but every player must use their own darts. NO card games NO pool or bar billiards. This will be reviewed in a couple of weeks at local levels
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 14:30:30 GMT
Think you'll find these are guidelines produced by an association with a vested interest in people paying to use their tables. The Brewers Fayre site says the exact opposite. Believe what you want on the internet! If I hear back from the mandarins at Whitehall (have had acknowledgement) this forum will be the first to know. What exactly do Brewers Fayre say about Pool/gaming machines then, Sav ? Only all I can find on their site relates to restaurants - they primarily being a food chain.
The BACTA guideline looked pretty sensible to me, b.t.w.
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