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Post by milko on Oct 26, 2009 10:04:39 GMT
We seem to be having one or two problems regarding the AEBBA rules at the moment. Last week it was the ball not reaching an imaginary line with the black peg without touching another ball and yesterday it was when the black peg gets knocked over with the cue while balls are in motion.
This happened in a Special Ladies match yesterday while I was over the pub, no one present knew what to do, so Dave was called to make a final decision. He thought the rule was that it was a foul shot, so the player responsible should lose all her score, but the exact wording of the rule says only if done so “deliberately”.
Rule 28. Foul shots incurring loss of entire score penalty. (A). Knocking down the black skittle with a ball. (B).Deliberately touching the black skittle with a cue or hand while balls are in motion or before a ball has completely fallen down a hole.
This upset the lady involved and she went home in tears!! :(
So I suggest that everyone takes a long hard look at the rules that we all play under when we are in AEBBA Competitions and also have a copy of the rules on the admin desk so people can check if any problem arises again.
We also had a problem yesterday with rowdy behaviour while the two ladies finals were taking place, one was Pete Burton who even though was asked politely to quieten down still decided to scream and take his shirt off and show that ridiculous belly button of his!!
The other was more in celebration as Eileen Britton took a photo of the Team Winners Berkshire with a rendition of “Come on Eileen”. Why this couldn’t wait until after the presentations and for the ladies to finish I don’t know. What’s happened to showing respect for other players, as it wasn’t shown yesterday by some people.
My final moan was regarding playing on the same table twice in separate competitions on the same day. This also happened yesterday with two players playing the same table in the Ladies and Team competitions and when I spoke to Dave afterwards he told me nothing could have been done to change it, I find that hard to believe as surely all you have to do is swap over with another match on another table.
If it’s not possible for players to not play the same table twice then it should be a rule saying you can only play in one of the competitions, like the Grand Prix/over 50’s & 60’s W/End.
We’ve had respect for other players now let’s see fair play for all.
I know I’m not going to be liked by some for saying all this but it needed to be said.
Keith. :(
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Post by JB on Oct 26, 2009 11:33:03 GMT
Feel worse than i already did now.
Yes it was my balls up. I made a mistake but thought i had done the right thing by asking for confirmation from 2 other people (one being the tournament director).
I confess i dont know every single rule to the exact wording but im sure theres a lot of other people who score that dont.
It wasnt nice to overhear some of the comments being made. e.g. Jeans totally the one at fault because the rules state you should have a competent scorer being one of them amongst others. Perhaps that means i will never be asked to score a game again!
Perhaps there should be a set of rules at each table so the scorer can quickly check or perhaps even a nominated rules person at each event.
I am sorry this happened and unfortunately I couldnt apologise due to playing and then the person involved left. I will apologise next time i see them but if in the meantime someone could pass on my apologies it would be appreciated.
Believe it or not i am human and like all humans i make mistakes. Sorry
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Post by milko on Oct 26, 2009 14:10:36 GMT
Feel worse than i already did now. Yes it was my balls up. I made a mistake but thought i had done the right thing by asking for confirmation from 2 other people (one being the tournament director). I confess i dont know every single rule to the exact wording but im sure theres a lot of other people who score that dont. It wasnt nice to overhear some of the comments being made. e.g. Jeans totally the one at fault because the rules state you should have a competent scorer being one of them amongst others. Perhaps that means i will never be asked to score a game again! Perhaps there should be a set of rules at each table so the scorer can quickly check or perhaps even a nominated rules person at each event. I am sorry this happened and unfortunately I couldnt apologise due to playing and then the person involved left. I will apologise next time i see them but if in the meantime someone could pass on my apologies it would be appreciated. Believe it or not i am human and like all humans i make mistakes. Sorry Don't feel guilty Jean, even I who thinks to knowing most rules could be caught out on something in the heat of battle. You didn't know the answer to the rule, but you did the right thing by asking Dave to make a decision and although he made the wrong decision his decision is final whether it be right or wrong. This applies to all AEBBA tournaments and Opens. As for the comments made about you, they are totally out of order because anyone who is willing to mark keeps the tournaments running so without markers we wouldn't have a tournament, so please don't take it to heart as mistakes can happen to anyone. Regarding having a set of rules at each table is not a bad idea, but I think having them on the desk is enough at the moment. I will give her a phone call sending your apologies, but again don't feel guilty. Keith. :-*
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Post by milhouse on Oct 26, 2009 15:35:37 GMT
I think these kind of problems arise because some counties have their own interpretations of the rules and not all leagues play to the AEBBA rules.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2009 16:00:34 GMT
I think these kind of problems arise because some counties have their own interpretations of the rules and not all leagues play to the AEBBA rules. This charge has been levelled before and is simply not the case. Leagues may well have their own separate laws of administration, but (in Sussex anyway) adhere to AEBBA Playing Rules. In the Mid Sussex League we are issued with three sets of Rules at the start of each season - Mid Sussex, Sussex County and AEBBA - and captains are required to make them available at each venue. As a captain myself, I have acquainted myself with them thoroughly and can find no conflicts in playing rules. I would say that this particular problem is an isolated one, and is an embarrassment to the AEBBA that no set of Rules was available for checking at one of its flagship events, and that this must be a requisite for the future.
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Post by barbelman on Oct 26, 2009 18:31:42 GMT
With reference to the scoring incident that happened at Reading yesterday as detailed by Milko is one of the things that Chris Saville's review of the rules (which have been ratified and accepted by the AEBBA) was supposed to minimise.
No-one will blame Jean in the cold light of day, as I would wager that 75% of the people in the hall that day would not know all the rules and I accept that the Tournament Director had to make a decision on the spot but not to know all the rules, especially one as basic as this, or even HAVE A COPY OF THE RULES TO HAND, just beggars belief.
I hope that steps are taken to stop this happening again and that the player concerned receives a full apology and admission of fault from the AEBBA. We have few enough lady players as it is without unnecessary and upsetting incidents such as this.
thank you Tony
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Post by milhouse on Oct 26, 2009 18:48:16 GMT
I think these kind of problems arise because some counties have their own interpretations of the rules and not all leagues play to the AEBBA rules. This charge has been levelled before and is simply not the case.Leagues may well have their own separate laws of administration, but (in Sussex anyway) adhere to AEBBA Playing Rules. In the Mid Sussex League we are issued with three sets of Rules at the start of each season - Mid Sussex, Sussex County and AEBBA - and captains are required to make them available at each venue. As a captain myself, I have acquainted myself with them thoroughly and can find no conflicts in playing rules. I would say that this particular problem is an isolated one, and is an embarrassment to the AEBBA that no set of Rules was available for checking at one of its flagship events, and that this must be a requisite for the future. Bit of a contradiction here ? You say that you play to AEBBA rules, but then you say you have 3 different sets issued ?
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Post by milko on Oct 26, 2009 19:03:05 GMT
Dave DID have a set of rules on his laptop computer on the desk.
I'm not sure though if he looked it up or just thought that was the rule.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2009 19:36:46 GMT
Bit of a contradiction here ? You say that you play to AEBBA rules, but then you say you have 3 different sets issued ? You're not reading me are you ? League Rules = Rules of our own constitution. County Rules = SCBBA constitution + rules governing their own Inter-League and other competitions which we take part in. No actual 'laws of the game' (separate) playing rules for either, as we affiliate to the County who in turn affiliate to All-England. We thus use the AEBBA playing rules to AVOID any contradictions.
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Post by NigelS on Oct 27, 2009 0:13:22 GMT
I sympathise will all parties involved (the scorer, the player and the TD). I think the rule is not that clear cut and open to interpretation. The problem is the use of the word deliberate. You can never prove that someone has done something deliberately – the scorer can’t be a mind reader. I am sure Jenny didn’t deliberately knock the black peg over and it was an accident, but what if the ball had been heading for the black peg and she knocked it over then. It may still have been an accident then but surely in that case most people would call it a foul. Isn’t a handball in football only supposed to be awarded when it is ‘accidental’ – have you ever seen anyone ‘deliberately’ handle the ball in the area – of course you don’t do it on purpose, but a penalty is given 95% of the time.
I would have called it a foul myself, the balls are in motion, and you are interfering with the table whilst it is in play. You can’t give the benefit of the doubt that it was an accident as you would then be in the same position if the ball was moving towards the black peg and you would have to call it no foul then which would be a lot worse. Maybe the wording of this rule should be looked at at the AGM.
I agree that rules should be available at maybe put on the wall so everyone can read them, but that is easy to say in hindsight, don’t forget Dave has many things to organise for each of these weekends so please don’t get on his case – it is a tough job and I don’t envy the position he was put in at the weekend. Just because he is TD doesn’t mean he is going to know all the rules inside out – none of us do. And as I say I think he made the right decision – depending on how you interpret the rules.
With regards to players playing on the same tables – players should be kept off the same if possible. This weekend has always been awkward because ladies want to play in both. I think this is right as they shouldn’t lose the opportunity to gain Ladies Grand Prix points in the open and should also have the opportunity to play for their team. Pauline was the first one to do this and she won both competitions. I knew Dawn wanted to play in both, I wasn’t told Denise wanted to – I may not have allowed that as with 2 ladies it becomes a lot more complicated. It becomes very tricky to sort out the day so the 2 ladies in question are not required to play at the same time or on the same table twice. You can only sort this when the draw is done as we never know ladies numbers beforehand. It is very difficult for Dave to do this as they are my formats he is working from – but I am sure he did his best to make it fair. Perhaps a 3 minute roll up for players that have already played the same table for both players may help remove any advantage gained. The problem is if we do stop ladies entering both it is them that will suffer, it is a hell of a lot easier to run it that way believe me – so I don’t think we should criticise Dave for his generosity for letting the ladies play.
It is a shame to hear the comments about peoples behaviour, I am afraid there will always be some idiots – I do think however that 99% of players show the upmost respect towards opponent – and long may that continue.
I am sure Dave will take the comments on board, I will also and work with him to improve. I respect your comments, Keith, and take them as constructive, as I know you always want what is best for bar billiards as I do. Lets hope for a smooth running to the rest of the events this year!
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Post by barbelman on Oct 27, 2009 7:30:44 GMT
I sympathise will all parties involved (the scorer, the player and the TD). I think the rule is not that clear cut and open to interpretation. The problem is the use of the word deliberate. You can never prove that someone has done something deliberately – the scorer can’t be a mind reader. I am sure Jenny didn’t deliberately knock the black peg over and it was an accident, but what if the ball had been heading for the black peg and she knocked it over then. It may still have been an accident then but surely in that case most people would call it a foul. Isn’t a handball in football only supposed to be awarded when it is ‘accidental’ – have you ever seen anyone ‘deliberately’ handle the ball in the area – of course you don’t do it on purpose, but a penalty is given 95% of the time. Hi Nigel You are being very contradictory here. You say that you are sure that Jenny didn't knock the peg over and then say that you would have called a foul shot! That is directly contrary to AEBBA playing rule 28B (which is VERY clearly worded) " Deliberately touching the black skittle with a cue or hand while balls are in motion or before a ball has completely fallen down a hole." Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's ambiguous, Nigel! ;) Subjective maybe but then so are a lot of rules and that is what the scorer is there for. If Jean thought that Jenny knocked the black over deliberately then it's a foul shot, if she thought it was accidental then it is NOT a foul shot. There is nothing ambiguous about that, it's just a judgment call based on a knowledge of the rules (I repeat that I don't blame Jean - there is widespread sketchy knowledge of the rules) To compare it to football is fatuous and mischievous. They are professionals and we are just a bunch of people playing a game of billiards against friends. There is no-one in the modern game that would knock the peg out of the way of a ball heading for the black and I doubt there ever was! cheers Tony
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Post by NigelS on Oct 27, 2009 7:47:42 GMT
There is no-one in the modern game that would knock the peg out of the way of a ball heading for the black and I doubt there ever was! cheers Tony I have been told stories that someone in Sussex used to do exactly that Tony, which is probably why the rule is there! You can say I am contradicting myself, but my point is you can't say Jenny didn't do it deliberately 100% even though of course it highly improable she did. I am comparing it to football with the use of the word deliberate, the size of the two games does not come into it at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 11:41:39 GMT
I have been told stories that someone in Sussex used to do exactly that Tony, which is probably why the rule is there! I heard of that legend when I started playing Nigel, which makes it 40 years ago ! And you say I live in the past ! ;D It doesn't alter the validity of the point that Tony made, which is that Jenny should have been given the benefit of the doubt. In the absence of any 'motive' for the alleged 'crime'. I think that the Rule is plain enough and the AEBBA should admit a cock-up - and leave it at that! ;D
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Post by JB on Oct 27, 2009 12:45:43 GMT
I think both myself and AEBBA have admitted to a "cock-up".
As has been said its not a professional sport if it was all scorers TD's etc would be fully trained. As Tony said we are a bunch of people playing a game against friends. Which means we are human beings and mistakes will be made.
As far as i'm concerned this is now between the scorer, players and TD. As usual lots of people get involved and the situation escalates with comments being made that needn't be. Mistakes have been made, apologies done and lessons learnt.
END OF
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Post by milko on Oct 27, 2009 13:59:32 GMT
I agree completely with Clive and Jeans last post, so would hope that Dave (AEBBA Secretary) will soon come on here and admit responsibility for the mistake and then send Jenny a letter of apology, so we can put this issue to bed while we are all friends!!
Keith.
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David.G
Distinguished Member
Posts: 550
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Post by David.G on Oct 28, 2009 23:48:20 GMT
On sunday during the special ladies tournament i was called over to table 3 by the two players and scorer. It was explained to me that one of the ladies had knocked over the black peg with her cue whilst the ball was in motion. I made an on the spot decision as the bar was still running and time was ticking away.
My decision was based on my own knowledge of the rules as I knew them at that precise time. Nothing was said by any of the ladies involved and I felt that the decision must have been correct.
I spoke to Dennis Atkins and contacted Nigel Senior by phone to clarify my decision. Both in question agreed I had made the right decision.
My decision was made wilst the first leg was being played, the second leg went ahead as scheduled. It was after this that Phil Hawkins came to the admin desk with the lady player and she requested an appeal. Phil Hawkins told me he though the rule was changed some five years ago. I asked Phil for ten minutes to search my computer for a copy of the rules.
I found and red these rules only to discover that my decision was in fact wrong. By this time the lady player had already left for home. I had no indication or knowledge that she was or had been upset over my decision.
JENNY. MY SINCERE APOLOGIES TO YOU FOR THE PERSONAL UPSET I HAVE CAUSED YOU.
In the rules it states that the referees decision is final, I think in this case it should be Referees apology is final.
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