Unclear Rule

[petem]

Hi all
Not sure if anyone has come up against this one before
On Thursday in the Worthing league I had a situation where the ball I was aiming at dropped into the hole as my cue ball was 1/2 way up the table towards it
The cue ball then rimmed the hole and ended up coming back up the table and felling the black peg on its way into the 200 hole
Not one person on both sides could shed any light onto the rules in this situation.
I obviously thought I had played a foul shot and had my score removed
The AEBBA rules state
20. If a player plays at a ball on the lip of a hole and the ball falls before the cue ball reaches it, no penalty will be incurred and the player will continue with his break, except for any penalty incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball.
As no penalty was incurred prior to the ball dropping should I have carried on?
In the end it didn't matter because it was a dead rubber and we mutually agreed a tie at the end,but what would be the scenario if it was a deciding leg?

[Sparky]

Nov 21, 2009 9:10:56 GMT petem said:

Hi all
Not sure if anyone has come up against this one before
On Thursday in the Worthing league I had a situation where the ball I was aiming at dropped into the hole as my cue ball was 1/2 way up the table towards it
The cue ball then rimmed the hole and ended up coming back up the table and felling the black peg on its way into the 200 hole
Not one person on both sides could shed any light onto the rules in this situation.
I obviously thought I had played a foul shot and had my score removed
The AEBBA rules state
20. If a player plays at a ball on the lip of a hole and the ball falls before the cue ball reaches it, no penalty will be incurred and the player will continue with his break, except for any penalty incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball.
As no penalty was incurred prior to the ball dropping should I have carried on?
In the end it didn't matter because it was a dead rubber and we mutually agreed a tie at the end,but what would be the scenario if it was a deciding leg?

Hi Pete

An awkward one to answer as obviously you should have continued without loss of score, however what you are asking is what can be done when the scorer makes an important mistake (with nobody else knowing the right answer either).

Provided that there is time and with the agreement of both players and captains I would suggest a replay, however I would point out that in theory the scorers decision is final and that there is no right of appeal allowed for in the rules, so this would be based purely on the good will and sporting character of all concerned.

[petem]

Thanks Sparky
Not wishing to put the blame on Rick C who was scoring,when it happened we all looked at each other and said what happens now?No-one in either team in all their years of participation could give an answer
I said to Rick that I thought it was a foul shot and agreed to have my score removed
The incident occured about 1/2 way through the game and rather than delay we played till the end
Only afterwards were a set of rules inspected and the above rule (No 20) was the only thing that came close to the problem
Maybe this is a first and if it happens in a more important game be referred to as a benchmark
As I said, myself and Dave Anscombe agreed on a tie because it seemed the fairest thing to do

I agree with Sparky's assessment of the situation, these being the operative words...........

Nov 21, 2009 9:52:07 GMT Sparky said:

except for any penalty incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball

Such a case must have come up on a number of occasions over the years, otherwise there would not be such a precise wording in the AEBBA rules to cover it.

Where people do get confused sometimes is over the situation when someone misses the ball they were going for, and the cueball comes back up the table and fells the black. Some claim that the first 'foul' counts and the black doesn't count. But just because they missed the ball they went for doesn't constitute a foul (it could score off something else and go in !)

So I'm afraid if you miscue and it comes back on to the black, unless you had a white peg first, or some other clear-cut foul like the ball leaving the table, the black counts ! BUT in PeteM's case, there was no miscue and the ball dropping that he went for counts as an incident beyond his control and there is a specific wording to cover it (in the quote above in orange).

And as Sparky says, scorer's ruling is the one that counts, and apart from that the general rules in Sport of common sense and fair play should prevail.

[Chris_Sav]

Re the original topic; Sparky's assessment is spot on.

Problem we need to get over now is that the game was played for so long without a proper rule book that people have not familiarised themselves with the rules now we have one. Thus the rules covering these peculiar circumstances are not generally known.

Can only suggest team captains read them! or have a copy in league pubs. We do in my league.

Sav.

[Chris_Sav]

Nov 21, 2009 11:13:49 GMT tommo III said:

So I'm afraid if you miscue and it comes back on to the black, unless you had a white peg first, or some other clear-cut foul like the ball leaving the table, the black counts !

I'm afraid that is incorrect Clive.

The only time a black peg penalty is not applied is if the white peg is felled in the same shot (by the ball) and is felled before the black (rule 29). Any other foul shot committed before the black falls is irrelevant and the maximum penalty is applied as normal.

Sav

Well okay, you're right of course. But uppermost in my mind was Rule 27E, and as as scorer I would be inclined to return the ball to the rack before it had a chance to go back onto the black !

27. Foul shots incurring loss of break score penalty.
E). Any ball mounting the cushion or leaving the table, even if it falls back on the playing surface. The ball should be returned to the rack.

So I can get it wrong too, having played the game for 40 years and studied the AEBBA playing rules inside and out ! :o

With all the profit that the AEBBA will soon be making out of table hires, would it be unreasonable to ask for them to commission a pocket-sized booklet of the Playing Rules for all players, which can then be distributed to all counties, and from thence onward to all Leagues ? A first run of 1,000 should be sufficient.

[Chris_Sav]

Nov 21, 2009 12:53:51 GMT tommo III said:

So I can get it wrong too, having played the game for 40 years and studied the AEBBA playing rules inside and out ! :o

These young pups been playing the game for five minutes and think they know the rules!! ;D ;D ;D

You are correct on the rule books, but any self respecting secretary can knock out an A5 booklet in Word for now.

Sav

There's a challenge for me then, as General Secretary for Redhill.

But isn't this the sort of thing that should come from AEBBA's Secretary which after all is a paid post. ???

[milko]

20. If a player plays at a ball on the lip of a hole and the ball falls before the cue ball reaches it, no penalty will be incurred and the player will continue with his break, except for any penalty incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball.

This rule looks clear to me!!

While we're on the subject of rules again, I was marking Stevens game this week when he played the last ball into the 100 pocket and it rimmed out towards the black peg, I instantly went to grab the ball but realized that if it had carried on to knock the black down it would have been loss of entire score, do you all agree? and has it ever happened?
The rule states that you should cover the top holes & 50 pockets, so it must be a foul if it had knocked the black peg over.


Another rule that wasn't adhered to recently by the marker and players was when a ball is in play but obstructing the D, the ball should have come back at end of break.

34). If a ball obstructs the placing of a ball anywhere in the 'D', but no foul shot has been played, it will remain there, but will be removed to the trap at the end of the current break (similar to the leaning peg/obstructed spot situation).

I copied the AEBBA rules last season and were distributed to all the Oxford League teams.

[milhouse]

Can i just clear something up as i dont think this has been discussed here.
If playing a ball which has dropped before the cue ball hitting it, if that cue ball then bounces off the cushion or rims a pocket and knocks a peg over - what happens?

I was under the impression that you kept your score, but play got handed to your opponent ? But having looked at this, it seems as though you would carry on with your break ?

[Chris_Sav]

Nov 21, 2009 14:19:03 GMT milko said:

While we're on the subject of rules again, I was marking Stevens game this week when he played the last ball into the 100 pocket and it rimmed out towards the black peg, I instantly went to grab the ball but realized that if it had carried on to knock the black down it would have been loss of entire score, do you all agree? and has it ever happened?
The rule states that you should cover the top holes & 50 pockets, so it must be a foul if it had knocked the black peg over.

I believe that you should not interfere with a moving ball, so yes the black peg would count.

It would also have been end of game even if the ball did not drop, which is another rule I have not seen applied several times after the black has fallen on the last ball shot.

Sav

[Chris_Sav]

Nov 21, 2009 14:45:16 GMT milhouse said:

Can i just clear something up as i dont think this has been discussed here.
If playing a ball which has dropped before the cue ball hitting it, if that cue ball then bounces off the cushion or rims a pocket and knocks a peg over - what happens?

I was under the impression that you kept your score, but play got handed to your opponent ? But having looked at this, it seems as though you would carry on with your break ?

You should have carried on, after all a ball has been potted, the one that fell into the hole after you had played your shot.

Sav

[Sir Chancelot]

Guernsey league rules are a little different as you will probably be aware. I will have to look at the exact wording.
If a ball drops into a pocket after the player has left the table, it is usually replaced in the exact place by one in the tray by the marker/referee.

Also if a peg moves during during a players break and remains upright, it stays like that untill the end of the players break.
This seems logical as the peg is not knocked down and if this fluke occurs I think our rule is fairer.
When I was marking a singles game this week John Beck managed to move a peg approx 2 inches, and he remarked he could not remember moving a peg as far.
The position of the peg had no bearing on the result of the game.

[Richard]

Surely if you were to put the ball back in exactly the same place it would fall in again ??

Nov 21, 2009 15:41:38 GMT Chris_Sav said:

I believe that you should not interfere with a moving ball, so yes the black peg would count.
Sav

So, would you apply that to my scenario, where a ball mounts the back cushion and is squirted back towards the black peg ?

The rule states clearly that the ball has to be returned to the rack: My interpretation therefore would be that the ball having left the table immediately counts as a 'dead ball'. I would therefore ignore the black. Would I be wrong on this ?

[Chris_Sav]

Is my friend starting a debating school? ;D

To repeat I believe you should not touch a ball in motion (apart from rolling across the floor when there is no possibility of the ball returning to the table).

Apart from which, if you try and grab a ball that has mounted the cushion and make a mess of it you could finish up disturbing several balls on the table and finish in a right mess.

The rule is quite clear to me that the black peg being felled is a loss of total score unless the white peg is felled first.

Sav.

I have to admire the way you make a case for further action of a dead ball to count - although it's highly illogical, Captain: ;D ;D



Live long and prosper, my friend..........

[Chris_Sav]

Nov 22, 2009 11:55:33 GMT tommo III said:

I have to admire the way you make a case for further action of a dead ball to count - although it's highly illogical, Captain: ;D ;D



Live long and prosper, my friend..........

It's Bar Billiards Clive, but not as you know it ;D ::) :P

Did I dare to venture where no man has dared to venture before ?
;D ;D ;D

[Sparky]

Nov 21, 2009 21:50:44 GMT tommo III said:

Nov 21, 2009 15:41:38 GMT Chris_Sav said:

I believe that you should not interfere with a moving ball, so yes the black peg would count.
Sav

So, would you apply that to my scenario, where a ball mounts the back cushion and is squirted back towards the black peg ?

The rule states clearly that the ball has to be returned to the rack: My interpretation therefore would be that the ball having left the table immediately counts as a 'dead ball'. I would therefore ignore the black. Would I be wrong on this ?

I would go along with Tommo on this point as the first offence must count, and while I completely agree that a moving ball should not be touched it does mean that any subsequent foul (including knocking over the Black Peg) is irrelevant This is completely in accordance with the principle behind the rule that the Black does not count if the White is knocked over first, and I also cannot think of another rule whereby a second offence counts. Incidentally if one misses the object ball and the cue ball comes back to knock the Black over then it would count as a first offence as the 'miss' cannot be called until the ball has stopped moving.

[Mark James]

I’d like to steer this debate back towards the original question asked by petem. And, much as I hesitate to challenge the wisdom of the very learned minds who have contributed thus far, I don’t believe that the matter has yet been resolved correctly.
Rule 20 clearly states that the failure of the cue ball to hit the falling object ball does not in itself constitute a foul. But my contention is that this rule addresses itself solely to the period of the shot up to the moment when the cue ball reaches the original location of the object ball, but ceases to apply thereafter, when the normal rules of BB take over once again.

The crucial issue is whether the cue ball remains “live” after having reached that point, or whether it becomes immediately “dead”. Some contributors to this thread believe the latter, which is why, for instance, they would argue that no subsequent penalty can apply, regardless of what happens to the ball. But I believe this to be an incorrect interpretation, which I’ll attempt to illustrate using the following scenarios.

Scenario 1. Object ball on lip of 30 hole, topples in but cue ball ploughs through the white peg on the way towards it. This is a foul, covered by “penalty incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball”

Scenario 2. Object ball on lip of 50 hole, topples in while cue ball in transit, but cue ball struck so softly that it fails to reach where the object ball was. This is a foul for same reason as scenario 1.

Scenario 3. The commonest occurrence in such circumstances and, I believe, the acid test. Ball on front lip of 50 hole, cue ball arrives at hole after object ball has fallen, and follows it down 50 hole. Fair shot, both balls score, break continues. If the cue ball was deemed “dead” as soon as it arrived at where the object ball started, then the break would still continue, but only the object ball would score and not the cue ball. I have witnessed this situation many times, but never seen such a ruling applied to it, scorer always counts both balls

Scenario 4. PeteM’s plight. Object ball falls, cue ball arrives at where it was. No foul has occurred to this point, but the subsequent rolling of the cue ball knocks over a peg. Unfortunate, but a foul shot nevertheless. This does not contradict Rule 20, which deals only with that portion of the shot which occurred prior to cue ball’s arrival at object ball’s starting location.

If one accepts that the cue ball, remaining live, can score points in scenario 3, then the logical conclusion is that it can also commit a foul in scenario 4. Or, if it is ruled dead, thus preventing it from committing a foul, then it cannot score either.

At this stage I'm not sure, Mark, whether you subscribe to the statement by Sav that the rule holds no ambiguity, something that I have never disputed.

I will have to read your post carefully before agreeing or otherwise.

But at this stage I would just like to make exactly clear what I meant when I referred to a dead ball. Quite simply, one that has come back into baulk, or, one that has left the playing surface by mounting a cushion.

AEBBA Playing Rule 27E is a comparatively recent new wording, and describes a ball mounting the cushion and falling back onto the playing surface as required to be returned to the rack. My own interpretation of this (and I believe Sparky now to be in agreement) is that the ball becomes dead once it leaves the playing surface - the same as if it had landed on the floor !

The only possible ambiguities I can find are what happens if collisions occur on its way back ? Does the scorer try to restore the table to previous position ? My ruling as a scorer would be 'no' as when the foul of a white peg occurs, it sometimes takes several balls with it, and no attempt is made then to restore the position, (despite the subtle difference that it remains on the playing surface and is not a dead ball !)

[Chris]

I assume this is an AEBBA game and not league specific e.g. various counties.

In Portsmouth as far as I am aware Black counts at all times... or maybe someone needs to tell me otherwise and I could be wrong here.

Chris

[Sparky]

Hi Mark

It is good to hear from you and initially I was going to simply support Tommo's reply but through respect for your experience and opinions I have tried to understand what are the differences, and it seems there are 2 issues under discussion and they may have become confused but also there is a specific point in one of them that we seem to disagree on.

1. The discussion regarding a ball that leaves the table but subsequently manages to knock over the black peg, does not appear to be something you have discussed which is a point that seems to be agreed by Tommo and myself that the Black foul does not count as the ball was 'dead' before it hit the Black Peg, and incidentally no attempt should be made to interfere with the moving ball even though it is already 'dead'.
I will paste the appropriate Rule for others to see.; -
Rules of play
27. Foul shots incurring loss of break score penalty
E). Any ball mounting the cushion or leaving the table, even if it falls back on the playing surface. The ball should be returned to the rack. It is not a foul shot if a ball bounces upwards and returns to playing surface without touching anything apart from another ball.

2. The other discussion regarding when an object ball drops into a pocket after the cue ball has been struck (towards it) which subsequently knocks over the Black peg, seems to be your point. I shall paste the relevant rules first ; -
Rules of play
20. If a player plays at a ball on the lip of a hole and the ball falls before the cue ball reaches it, no penalty will be incurred and the player will continue with his break, except for any penalty incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball.

27. Foul shots incurring loss of break score penalty.
B). Failing to hit another ball with the cue ball. (Except as in rule 20 AND RULE 26).

We can agree that the issue is what happens after the cue ball reaches the position formerly occupied by the object ball and so it seems to me that you consider the 'no penalty' part of the rule only applies to the foul of 'missing' the object ball whereas I (and assume Tommo ?) consider that it applies to any subsequent foul (i.e. hitting the Black peg) as it is reasonable to assume that it would not have happened if the object ball had still been there, which has to be the premiss on which this rule is based.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood either your intentions or thinking but did find it interesting to understand another viewpoint and would suggest that maybe this rule be clarified for the future.

Graham

[enzo]

Nov 24, 2009 19:30:28 GMT tommo III said:

... when the foul of a white peg occurs, it sometimes takes several balls with it, and no attempt is made then to restore the position..

I'm of the same opinion, although a foul has been committed, the shot was 'good' but the foul arose from an unforced error so wherever the balls land is where the next player takes it from. I don't think the ball that mounted a cushion should be classed as 'dead' or likened to the ball being chipped off the table, as the foul is enough punishment for the player and would be too hard to enforce. On the other hand, someone bumping into the player whilst taking a shot is a forced error and the balls should be (or at least attempted to be) replaced in their original positions.

RE the lip situation: I remember disputing this with Richard Bulling last year, who had the strong view that the ball had not finished moving when it went down from the lip, so you are breaching another rule by playing a shot whilst ball(s) are still moving -> loss of break. He added that this was only when the player was continuing a break, not when a new player comes to the table after the original player left the ball on the lip. I've seen this happen a lot when a player is rushing to get the break back, and assume the ball is stationary on the lip but has no time to wait 5 seconds to confirm it has stopped.

The cue ball cannot be deemed as 'dead' after attempting a lip-shot that fell in, as if you were whip around a pocket and knock another ball in the hole, you would expect to be credited with both balls. The object ball would merely have to be 'immune' to a foul during that shot, and if such foul was committed then the ball should be returned to baulk and the break contiuned (and no additional score for that shot should be awarded, only the ball that dropped in).

Best Case Scenario: Ball on lip of the 30, another ball in the corner, player goes for the one on the lip, which drops before the cue ball gets there causing the cue to play the ball in the corner and score a 30-20. Break back. Is this fair? It seems so as no foul is committed.

Worst Case Scenario: Ball on lip of 30, player goes for the shot but the object ball drops before the cue ball reaches it, causing it to whip around the 30 and drop into the 200 whilst ringing and taking out the black peg. Unfair on 2 counts.. loss of score and giving the opponent the break back.

Does the scorer:

A) Call it an unlucky shot and clear the player's score and award the opponent the break.
B) Class the object ball as 'immune' to a foul, and award the player the break.
C) Demand the ball be placed as near to 'on the lip' as it can and the player retake their shot.

All of the above seem unfair, A is in favour of the oponent as it was an unforced error that caused him to lose his score, B is in favour of the player as the player has now got the break back whereas if the ball hadn't dropped he may not have got the 2 balls down. C is a bit of a compromise and is similar to the 'bumping the player' but is still quite unenforceable.

Richard then argued that this issue ties in with the ball rolling of the D foul shot. The table seems to be at fault, therefore if the ball rolls of the D when you play the shot, this has to either be called a foul or bracketed in the same rule as the lip-shot drop in. Obviously the foul would have to be called, as a player could miss their shot and claim that it rolled off the D, and unless there scorer specifically looked, the player would have to be given the benefit of the doubt, which is wrong.