2011 - time to go to Two Divisions?

Sept 20, 2010 18:39:07 GMT tommo III said:

17th  Oct is looking like a repeat of 2 years ago, just Berks B v Kent B. :-/

Can't help thinking that there is a ridiculous imbalance in the AEBBA's flagship event, the County Championships....................spread over two weekends, the first day sees 10 teams in Div 1 and 2 taking part, and the last day is likely to be devoted to 2 teams in Div 3 playing each other four times.

Surely it is time to consider for next year biting the bullet and having just two divisions of equal size?

The lower division is always an unknown entity, but I think we are fairly sure by now that neither Jersey or Guernsey are interested at joining at the bottom end, and we won't get a Northants B unless they can play on the same day as their A's - for transport reasons.  Also, Surrey B's usual clientele couldn't make it this year, but the three-team only 3rd Division wasn't an attractive enough carrot to tempt a replacement team.

So what I would suggest is the following:

First Tournament - Division Two consisting of 6, 7 or 8 teams.
Second Day - Division One consisting of 6 teams, with Kent A not being relegated. *Double games*.

It could also be double games on the first day if there are only 6 teams.  The idea of having the lower division first is to get the commitment of counties at an earlier stage.  We are usually pretty confident that all in Div One will be turning up.

Would like to know what others think, I reckon most who have taken part in these events would welcome extra rather than fewer games. And I'm sure that those running the events can come up with a schedule that doesn't extend the day by more than, say, an hour - slightly more games, yes, but fewer teams to manage.




 

[milhouse]

This is something that i was going to bring up at the AGM.
The other alternative i was thinking was having 3 sections of 4 teams and just having it played on one day to free up some space in the calendar ?

Oct 2, 2010 11:59:12 GMT milhouse said:

This is something that i was going to bring up at the AGM.
The other alternative i was thinking was having 3 sections of 4 teams and just having it played on one day to free up some space in the calendar ?

Remember this is supposed to be the 'Flagship' event, Mark.
I don't like the idea of cramming everything together, with fewer games, just for the sake of accomodating yet another competition that no-one seems to want.

[milhouse]

Oct 2, 2010 12:09:04 GMT tommo III said:

Oct 2, 2010 11:59:12 GMT milhouse said:

This is something that i was going to bring up at the AGM.
The other alternative i was thinking was having 3 sections of 4 teams and just having it played on one day to free up some space in the calendar ?

Remember this is supposed to be the 'Flagship' event, Mark.
I don't like the idea of cramming everything together, with fewer games, just for the sake of accomodating yet another competition that no-one seems to want.

I am not necessarily saying to free up space for a new competition, more to give Dave Alder and his helpers a week off!

[NigelS]

I agree that having 2 teams for division 3 is a ridiculous situation, which was always going to happen at some stage because you can't guarantee B sides (or even A sides) taking part int his competition.

I wouldn't like to see 3 sections of 4 teams, it is a long way to go for 4 games, let alone 3. Also you need 12 teams no more no less - what do you do if you have 14 - you are stuck with the same problem.

Tommo's idea of 2 weekend with division of 6 teams and another division made up of the rest of the teams has more merit - although double games would extend the day by far too much - another 9 series or 3 and a half hours! but if you stay with single legs everyone would get 5 games.  

It will depend on how many teams you get for division 2 - any more than 7 you would have to split into two groups - whether that would be a draw and the tow winners play off in a final, or whether they would become a division 2 and 3 again I guess would need to be discussed.

Oct 2, 2010 13:41:14 GMT milhouse said:

I am not necessarily saying to free up space for a new competition, more to give Dave Alder and his helpers a week off!

I don't think that Dave Alder would wish to be associated with any reductions in the current service, Mark, especially as the AEBBA is now held in higher esteem than it has ever been before!

I take aboard Nigel's comments about Double Games not always being possible, at the same time endorsing his comment about it being 'a long way to go just to play three games'.

Somehow the happy medium has to be found, and hopefully the templates still exist from when the competitions were split into two groups with a Final. (This for a 7 or 8 team Second Division).

And if you ever went up to 9 teams (hello again Cambridge and welcome to another couple of B teams) it should be possible to organise 3 groups of 3 with a 3-way round robin final.

I would however advocate having the lower division first so as you know exactly what teams you are getting.  

[milko]

Agreed, it is a ridiculous situation to have just two teams in a division, so I think it would be best to go to only two divisions for next year with each division played on different weeks.
I wouldn't want double games, as the tournaments finish late enough as it is, even with an 11.30 start (well supposed to be?).

It would mean that the Ladies Singles would have to be put with something else, because without a Div 3 they would be on their own. It would be good if both the Mens & Ladies AEBBA Singles could be played on the same day as each other.

I would also like to see trophies given for Runners Up in both County divisions, something that doesn't happen at the moment. I was disappointed not to receive a trophy for our efforts when finishing just a point behind the winners Berkshire.


Keith

Great, Keith, another one in favour.  We need a lot more peoples' views on this as well as what the man himself (Dave Alder) thinks.

Just to make it clear about earlier reference to "double games"....
I am not looking for the day to be extended here, but if the 1st and 2nd divisions are split onto different days, assuming the same number of tables were made available, the day the 1st Division was played would be over in half the time - yes?   So why not double games?

But this is only practical for a 5-team division (or less) and we are talking of the first division going up to 6 teams. As Nigel says, that would add a couple of hours on. So for 6 teams or more, single games only.


Re: the Runners-up trophies, we did actually get issued with them last year (Div 2), but presentation was delayed for a couple of months.

to get more teams in div 3 why not allow c teams

Oct 3, 2010 12:15:45 GMT @gillian said:

to get more teams in div 3 why not allow c teams

Not allowed at present under All England Rules:

"11).  Inter County Open representative matches will be seven-a-side. Ladies will be 5 - a – side. Counties may enter ‘A’ and ‘B’ sides for both competitions and ‘C’ sides for the Ladies."

was there a reason why c sides were not allowed, perhaps its time to at the next a.g.m

Oct 3, 2010 12:52:51 GMT @gillian said:

was there a reason why c sides were not allowed, perhaps its time to at the next a.g.m

Well this has come up before and in fact Milhouse enquired about an Oxon C for this year but that's what the answer was.

No reason why a proposal to allow them can't go before this year's AGM, though.

When discussed previously the consensus of opinion was that in years to come we could end up with a First Division of Oxon A, B and C and Sussex A, B and C -  fine for those counties with a wealth of resources, but there are the other Counties' interests to be considered.  

[NigelS]

I have said it before but I think it would be terrible for the competition if we were to allow C teams to enter.

The county champs is not about accomodating the larger counties to give the chance for more of their players to play but it is about trying to get all the counties associated with All England there to play in this competition.

The only reason why B and C teams were allowed in the ladies in the first place was because only about 5 of the counties were able to send a 5 a side ladies team (only 4 counties present today) so the competitions existence was seriously under threat. But this is not presently the case and never was with the mens - we still have 8 regular counties (9 if you include Cambridge), 7 a side which is enough for the competition to survive.

I can see we are stuck with B teams now , but C teams? Where will it all end? I hope this doesn't get put forward at the AGM as whoever does put it forward is really missing the point of the competition itself. People may think I am being exclusive, but I do think you have to earn the right to play for your county and be selected on merit, it shouldn't be the case of forming extra sides to allow other players to play.

Well said, Nigel.

[milhouse]

It was just a thought to maybe reduce some workload for Dave  :)

I think that the idea of having 6 teams in a division and two divisions is a fine one and i don't think there would be much, if any, opposition to this.

I also agree with Nigel's comments regarding C teams  (i wasn't the one asking for one this year!) although i think it very unlikely that the top section could only be made up of 2 counties considering that both Oxford and Sussex B teams have been promoted to Division One and were relegated the first year.

[Colemanator]

Oct 2, 2010 12:09:04 GMT tommo III said:

Just for the sake of accomodating yet another competition that no-one seems to want.

Quite agree Tommo 8-)

[Chris]

A question only and for thought and consideration...  will the proposals above include all those who are not maybe good enough to qualify for County Teams, especially in Counties that have a substantial number of exceptional players??... those quite good players that do regularly play and support events, without which in County Opens and other such events there would be very reduced entries.

There was a thread recently about how to encourage players. I feel that should also be taken into account.

Regards
Chris

A rather difficult question to answer, Chris, but I'll have a go.

In County terms, we have entered a phase where there are two powerful counties - Sussex and Oxon - who could easily field 'C' teams of the required county standard.  There are also two counties - Cambs and Bucks - who have slipped down the rankings and, as it stands, if they wished to participate next year it would have to be in Division Three.

In between these two factions there are the other counties, whose interests are catered for adequately in that they can pick or choose whether or not they want a B team.  Some like Hants seem quite happy to just have the one team.

For the sake of the future of the competition we have to reign in Sussex and Oxon to a certain extent, if only to protect the interests of the 'weaker' counties. It would be sad, IMHO, to see them go the way of Wilts, Somerset, Herts, S.Yorks, etc.  And the whole point of looking ahead now to a years time and trying to banish the idea of a 2-team division is to soften the blow for those obliged to take part in what must be a boring competition just for the sake of preserving their own existence.    

[David.G]

Totally agree with Tommo here. 6 teams in division one and division two made up with the rest of the teams is spot on. i would think that the ladies singles would be held on Div 1 weekend as you know there will be no more than 6 teams.

I hope next weekend is the last time we only have 2 teams. I am hoping that instead of playing each other 4 times. it might be nice if all plays all.

Thanks Dave,
Of course this would need the blessing of the 2010 AGM.

A Tournament Director's recommendation would have more clout than for a county to ask for it:  May we take it therefore that you will put forward the necessary proposal, especially as Nigel is in agreement also?

Cheers, Clive

[David.G]

Proposal already written Tommo :) ;D

[Colemanator]

IMHO, Div one should only Field county A teams, regardless of ability.

[David.G]

what happens with religation or promotion? ???

Definitely supplementary points to be considered.

IMHO it would be extremely harsh on Oxon B to deny them their earned promotion.

However, going to just two divisions provides the opportunity for a shakeup, and possibly a 'safety net' could be included, to the effect that no A team (or sole team) can be relegated below Div 2 in future.
This could serve to prolong the life of Cambridge and Bucks.

Effectively what Colemanator is hinting at is separate divisions for A and B teams. But that could mean 8 in one division and 4 or 5 in the other, whereas what we are trying to achieve here is more of an even balance.

[David.G]

A and B teams in Seperate Divisions with no Promotion or religation??? BOREDOM. Quickest way to kill off B teams don't you think

Totally agree.  There has to be hope as well as a goal to aim for.

[NigelS]

Oct 11, 2010 21:40:47 GMT tommo III said:

Totally agree.  There has to be hope as well as a goal to aim for.

Not sure I agree here, our Sussex inter League has B (and C teams) play on a seperate day for a seperate trophy. It is very competitive, and if county was done this way you could open it up to C teams giving you more teams to make it a good day. It also solves the problem of one or two counties dominating the top divisions

I am not sure what the solution is but agree that something needs to be done, so look forward to discussions at this years AGM

[Colemanator]

Oct 11, 2010 21:30:09 GMT David.G said:

A and B teams in Seperate Divisions with no Promotion or religation??? BOREDOM. Quickest way to kill off B teams don't you think

So, you'd rather see this;

201? County Championships Div 1

Ox A
Sussex A
Ox B
Sussex B
ANothershire

That's one quick way to kill off the prestigious 'County Championship' 8-) having it contested by three countys :-/

Oct 11, 2010 17:48:11 GMT tommo III said:

Effectively what Colemanator is hinting at is separate divisions for A and B teams. But that could mean 8 in one division and 4 or 5 in the other, whereas what we are trying to achieve here is more of an even balance.

My agreement with AEBBA Sec about rough justice for Oxon B if they weren't allowed to go up only applies in the present circumstances.

But I have really warmed to Nigel's latest suggestion of a separate competition for B and C teams - and can confirm that the concept works perfectly well for the Sussex One-Day Interleague competition. I wonder how many County C teams we would get, though ?  Probably only the one. :-/

[Pete S]

Tommo

Can you tell me the outcome of the AGM and the position regarding the county championships. I see that there is just a div 1 and div 2 on separate days. What will the make up of the 2 divisions be. I ask because Kent were relegated last year but it was mentioned that if the county championships went to 2 divisions Kent would not be relegated.

Cheers

PS