Billard Russe (Russian Billards)

[Chris_Sav]

Our game originates from a copy of the French/Belgian game of Russian Billiards in about 1930. The game has died out on the continent, but tables appear occasionally on Ebay.

I have long wanted to get my hands on one and have waited for one to surface close to Calais. This has now happened and I picked it up yesterday (despite KP's navigating).

Billard Russe Table

Close up of table

The table is more ornate than ours with marquetry all over it, a nice piece of furnture!! Construction is basically the same as a Sams (Tarratt)

The first thing you will notice is the absence of a 200 hole, The cups are bakelite like Jersey, but not easydrop. The rules (from a book I have also bought) are similar to our game except that the red triples after the bar drops and quadruples if used on the last shot!! The holes are positioned similar to ours, but the back ones are a bit further away from the top cushion.

Along with it came this very strange peg

see here.

I guess its for a "Chase the red" type variation. The object may be to knock it over as part of the shot and game some multiple of the score based on the dice, interesting and more suited to some players I can think of!!

Thought you might be interested. Does anyone know anything else of the predecessor t our game??

Chris.

Nice one Sav,
Table looks as if it's been well maintained, and it even has a traditional timer.
Are you planning to convert the table by means of drilling out a 200 hole especially ?

Don't know anything more than you about the origins of Billard Russe and its rules, but I do have a book which mentions earlier variations such as bagatelle and billard nicholas - together with some interesting engravings of a game played in the 17th century with maces.

My grandfather used to own a table-top only Russian billiards, and the whole family used to hide underneath it during the Blitz as it had a solid slate.
It was destroyed when the house (in New Malden) took a direct hit - fortunately everyone was out at the time...

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

The slate appears to be thicker than the Jelkes type ones. Legs are very rigid too, so good choice to hide under.

[Chris_Sav]

Dunno what I'm going to do with it yet. I will certainly recover it. Rubber will be a slight problem on the cushions as it is grooved to fit along a ridge on the rail. I may have to route a slot on the rails. I'll see if I can source the proper stuff which is as hard and as brittle as concrete its so old!!

I wanted to see and photograph one properly. I was also interested in the slate to see if there were possibilities of swapping with ours and drilling the 200 hole. I'll reburbish this one 'as is'

They go very cheaply in France, I only paid £200 for this nice one, so when I've finished playing it will probably go on Ebay to see what profit potential there is in a day trip!!

Sav.

[Kevin Pringle (R.I.P.)]

Have you tried playing a BB type break on it yet Chris ?

[Chris_Sav]

Had a closer look at the table with a view to refurbishing it.

The slate and hole arrangement is as a 'Narrow Sams' , The fifties and hundred are neared the top holes than a normal table. This totally contradicts the commonly held belief that our game was copied from this.

Sav.

[barbelman]

sav said:

Had a closer look at the table with a view to refurbishing it.

The slate and hole arrangement is as a 'Narrow Sams' , The fifties and hundred are neared the top holes than a normal table. This totally contradicts the commonly held belief that our game was copied from this.

Sav.

I wouldn't say it totally contradicts, Sav, - they are just variations on a theme.

It's more likely to be a common ancestor rather than evolution from Russian Billiards. The original BB-like games were played with sticks and balls with scooped out areas AT ONE END at targets. In one form this was mechanised much later to form bagatelle and ultimately pin-ball machines etc. Another 'branch' became the billard russe (russian bagatelle or russian billiards) and our own familiar bar billard tables.

The whole lot (snooker, pool, BB etc) started with someone sitting on the ground rolling a ball into a hole in the kitchen floor! Now there the thought - the World Sitting-on-the-Floor Championships in Jersey. At least you wouldn't have to worry where the tables were coming from..... ;D

Tony

[JerseyLugs]

Sav

Just a quick note in relation to a couple of comments on other threads.....

If this is as you think a predecessor to the modern game I can't help noticing that there doesn't appear to be a "D" by the fingerboard.

Could it be that the Jersey game is more BlueBlood than that "played by ninety percent of the players at the world championships"

Just a little point !!!

...and one up!!

Well Certainly Jerseylugs has a point. Especially as your tables are Burroughs and Watts which according to Sav are the "best build quality".

As regards the absolute origin of competitive play, a Google search reveals thus: "Bar Billiards: An adaptation of Russian billiards, this was first played in the Rose & Crown, Elham (a little village about five miles north of Folkestone), Kent, in 1935"

This was interesting.

www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Bar-Billiards.htm

Yeah, Swiss Bar Billiards.
I wonder if they play in lederhosen ? ;D
Plenty of Kipling points on offer if they do. ;)

sav said:

Along with it came this very strange peg

see here.

I guess its for a "Chase the red" type variation. The object may be to knock it over as part of the shot and game some multiple of the score based on the dice, interesting and more suited to some players I can think of!!
Thought you might be interested. Does anyone know anything else of the predecessor t our game??
Chris.

Recent interest in our game's origins has prompted me to investigate further, and I've found a good French site that delves into the ancient history :

www.chevillotte.com/en/transformables-autres-jeux.php

If you scroll down a bit, there is a game with a strange peg but of a different sort. The game's called Bouchon and it's played by
2 or more players, with 2 balls: 1 white and 1 red, 2 skittles and 1 “cork”.
• each player places his bet on the centre cork.
• the aim is to use the white cue ball to knock the centre cork over with the red ball only, without knocking over one of the other 2 skittles, and to pocket all the other bets.
• any error (not touching the red ball, knocking over one or two skittles, knocking over the cork with the white) means that the player has to replace the initial bet on the cork as many times as he commits errors.

Can't find anything on Spoons though ! ;D ;D ;) ;D ;D

Now the spoons - that goes back a very long way!!!

sav said:

Along with it came this very strange peg
see here.
I guess its for a "Chase the red" type variation. The object may be to knock it over as part of the shot and game some multiple of the score based on the dice, interesting and more suited to some players I can think of!!
Thought you might be interested. Does anyone know anything else of the predecessor t our game??
Chris.

Okay, I'm to bar billiards what Alastair Crowley was to devil worship, and I've researched Sav's special cork pin from the extensive library in my study and come up with the following
further information for all you afficionados:

Bouchon (= French word for "cork") A Parisian favourite.
Played with three carom balls and three Corks, each at least 1.5 inches long and placed upright on the table at the Centre Spot, Head spot and Foot Spot. Each player ante's a coin; the 'pool money' is stacked on top of the centre cork. The red ball is spotted at the Pool Spot, five inches from the Top Rail. The object is to hit the red, drive it against one or more cushions, and cause it to knock down the centre cork so that the cork falls clear of its spot without knocking down any other cork. If he succeeds, the pool is his. The second player uses the other white and may Bank either object ball. (Bank means go off the cushion first.) Player three may shoot with any ball. If a player misses, he must add a coin to the pool that is stacked on the centre cork, which becomes progressively less stable with each shot.

Cork Pool. Simplified version of Bouchon.
Played with three balls and a Cork, which is placed on the Centre Spot and used as a target. The red ball is placed on the Billiard Spot. Each player then places a penny on top of the Cork as a stake. Each shot must be a Cannon off the red to the Cork. When the Cork is knocked over, the Striker wins the Ante. If a player misses or commits a foul, he must add a penny to the Cork.

Coronation Cork Billiards. British version.
Played with three billiard balls, player 'owns' one of the balls, and with a Cork coloured red and white. The Cork is played on the Middle Spot. Scoring as in 'ordinary' billiards, but knocking the Cork down after the cue ball strikes another is worth 10 points. Knocking the Cork down before the cue ball has hit another costs 11 points. To win, a player's score plus the value of his private ball must equal game total which is set at either 63 or 126 exactly. The game is lost if the total is exceeded.

Bumble-Puppy. Simplified version of Cork Pool.
A three-inch circle is drawn in chalk around the Cork. Each player who fails to knock over the Cork must place a coin upon it. When the Cork is hit, the succesful striker keeps only those coins falling outside the circle. A coin is considered outside if more than half of it lies beyond the circle.

Well, Sav, you did ask !!! ::)

So, there's plenty of mention of Cork pins with rounded tops capable of having coins balanced on top. Apparently there came a stage when the use of coins on tables became frowned upon as there was a tendency for them when falling end-on to damage the cloth. I would imagine that your special pin with the dice-numbered sheath was a later introduction to get around this
problem.

There stated is the 'Diary of a drug fiend'. One of my favourite books, incidentally.

reformedcharacter said:

There stated is the 'Diary of a drug fiend'. One of my favourite books, incidentally.

Yes, LC,
As you can see, not 9 o'clock yet and already I've had my daily fix.

I am daunted by the wisdom that resides on this forum.

[Chris_Sav]

Back to the Billard Russe table as I am finally refurbing it to get it on Ebay for Crimble.

Table is beautifully constructed. All the nasty screw heads around the outside of the table are rebated under the lip and concealed with beading, took me an hour to get the damn things off.

The table, I am guessing is not as old as I thought as the slate is obviously from the same source as the narrow Sams tables, how do I know??? the 200 hole was marked but not drilled. Thus this table must be from later stock, around the fifties I would guess.

Quite pleased with myself as I have just drilled out the 200 hole perfectly. Put the 62mm core drill through as couple of metre long pieces of wood with the bench drill, screwed them together to give a nice deep vertical template, clamped that to the slate to stop the core drill from jumping, hosepipe and off we went.

Means next time I recover a table I can take the hole to the size of the pocket and not the other way around which takes allthe grippy tread off the side of the cups.

Taken the concrete that used to be rubber off the cushions and rerubbered them.

Should be on Ebay next weekend.

Am probably putting a nice Sams on Ebay tomorrow.