Knocking the Black Peg over with your cue

[BB Warrior]

A recent incident during a match played in the Lewes League in Sussex has resulted in the following post from Tommo......

Dec 1, 2010 9:28:04 GMT tommo III said:

Controversy time.

It's just possible that Lewes may have the concept right and the AEBBA Rule needs changing instead.

Discuss.

Okay, this is what happened in the match......

Nov 30, 2010 18:37:59 GMT little legs said:

Richard                  B/P      Jean                  4860
                            2820                              10820

A good evening as always down at the Brewers  ,unfortunate for Richard as in the first game he had the frame won when knocking the black peg over with his cue .

The Rules in Lewes state........

28 FOUL SHOTS incurring loss of entire score penalty:
i knocking down the black skittle with a ball
ii knocking down the black skittle with cue or hand while balls are in motion or before
a ball has completely fallen down a hole.

..... which are slightly different to the AEBBA Rules......

28. Foul shots incurring loss of entire score penalty.
A). Knocking down the black skittle with a ball.
B). Deliberately touching the black skittle with a cue or hand while balls are in motion or before a ball has completely fallen down a hole.

..... as the word "Deliberately" has been missed out, meaning that under the AEBBA Rules it would have been the decision of the scorer as to whether it was intentional or accidental.

The question has been asked as to whether the word "deliberately" should be included at all...... should it be a simple case of if you knock the black peg over while the balls are in motion, that you automatically lose all your score?

I have posted below some of the comments that have been made on the Lewes Thread that started this...... more opinions welcomed. 8-)

[BB Warrior]

Nov 30, 2010 21:07:42 GMT little legs said:

It was funny because earlier in the evening Ben from the Cock had rung me querying this rule as Dilly had done the same , and the main question seemed to be whether there were still balls moving on the table in the game at CK it was deemed not to be so no foul but in our game balls were so foul.

Rule 28 ii  Foul shot knocking down the black skittle with cue or hand while balls are in motion or before a ball has completely fallen down the hole.

Glad we got that right as normally i'm not sure of rules ;) lucky my team mates do :D

[BB Warrior]

Nov 30, 2010 23:29:12 GMT Chris_Sav said:

This 'Local' rules is a bit of a mute point to me as in the AEBBA rules

17). Member counties agree by their affiliation to abide by the association’s rules.

The word 'Deliberately' was inserted into the AEBBA rules to prevent penalty from accidentally knocking over the peg with the cue.

I realise Lewes is an association within SCBBA which is an AEBBA county, but there really should be one set of playing rules nationwide.

Sav.

[BB Warrior]

Dec 1, 2010 0:03:17 GMT tommo III said:

Lewes are definitely out on a limb on that one, Sav.
As far as I know, all the other Leagues within Sussex play to Sussex Playing Rules, which by default are AEBBA Playing Rules.
Standardization occurred more than 20 years ago, when Charles Cordery was the Sussex County Secretary.  

[BB Warrior]

Dec 1, 2010 0:17:58 GMT H said:

I once lost a Men's Singles final in Lewes to Richard Wooton due to the same ruling. I have since learnt that perhaps the decision on the night was not correct...

[BB Warrior]

Dec 1, 2010 6:33:53 GMT BB Warrior said:

Nov 30, 2010 23:29:12 GMT Chris_Sav said:

This 'Local' rules is a bit of a mute point to me as in the AEBBA rules

17). Member counties agree by their affiliation to abide by the association’s rules.

The word 'Deliberately' was inserted into the AEBBA rules to prevent penalty from accidentally knocking over the peg with the cue.

I realise Lewes is an association within SCBBA which is an AEBBA county, but there really should be one set of playing rules nationwide.

Sav.

I agree with that entirely and will be proposing to change that Rule at the next Lewes AGM..... together with any other 'Local' Rules that I find, unless there is a very good reason for them to be in place. ;)

[Chris_Sav]

The AEBBA rule is correct and all were extensively debated prior to acceptance of the current rules

The rule is designed to penalise foul shots not an accident.

It is also intended to prevent the player picking up the black peg and putting it back after the ball has passed, that is not covered in the Lewes rule. Unlikely I know but several rules cover unlikely circumstances

Sav

Thanks for studiously opening this for discussion in the correct place, Warrior.

As I see it, the concept of whether or not an 'accident' should be punished in such a fashion is a natural follow-on from another debatable situation - what happens when a ball flies out of your hand and up the table by accident?

We had an incident in the Mid Sussex Masters when Peter Edwards (playing me) fumbled a ball out of the tray and it shot up the table, knocking about six balls out of position.

H was scoring, and ruled that, as the table had been disturbed, whether deliberate or not, this counted as a foul. He added that, had the ball not hit any balls or pegs (thus not disturbing the table) it would not have counted as a foul and he would have been allowed to continue.

H took some criticism at the time, but if looked at in conjunction with a player absentmindedly picking up a ball off the table instead of one out of the tray to play as a cueball (thus disturbing the table which is a foul)  Henry's interpretation was found to be SPOT ON.

Ergo, disturbing the table by knocking a skittle over - unless it happens to be a dead ball situation should - logically - also count as a foul.

Summary..............the 'bootleg' Lewes Rule is more logical than the AEBBA Rule.  

[Chris_Sav]

Dec 1, 2010 11:07:45 GMT tommo III said:

As I see it, the concept of whether or not an 'accident' should be punished in such a fashion is a natural follow-on from another debatable situation - what happens when a ball flies out of your hand and up the table by accident?

We had an incident in the Mid Sussex Masters when Peter Edwards (playing me) fumbled a ball out of the tray and it shot up the table, knocking about six balls out of position.

H was scoring, and ruled that, as the table had been disturbed, whether deliberate or not, this counted as a foul. He added that, had the ball not hit any balls or pegs (thus not disturbing the table) it would not have counted as a foul and he would have been allowed to continue.
 

Clive has his debating hat on I can see, all too late for this year's AGM

31. If the balls are disturbed in any way other than in the normal course of play, then the scorer should replace
the balls in what he/she considers to be their original positions and play should continue. If, in the opinion of the
scorer, a ball on the edge of the hole falls due to any accidental or deliberate table movement by the player, that the
ball be replaced and will not count and the break will end.

No foul.

Sav

Dec 1, 2010 11:27:08 GMT Chris_Sav said:

No foul.
Sav

I agree, far too late for discussion at the weekend.
And I will always when scoring apply the letter of the law whether the rule is 'silly' or not.

This one is not as cut and dried as made out, though.  Do you remember this thread?

barbilliards.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=7795&page=1

So now, after convincing us that picking up the 'wrong' ball counts as a foul, it now seems that the scorer should just put the ball back and let the player carry on. This is certainly a cloudy issue and offers plenty of scope for debate prior to the 2011 AGM. ;D ;D

[Chris_Sav]

Clive,

Re the previous thread referred to and ALL these accidental situations

It is NOT a foul shot unless it contravenes rules 27 or 28. Scorers have no right to deduct points unless rule 27 or 28 are contravened. None of these situations are listed as foul shots under rules 27 & 28 and play continues.

I don't care if the player drops his cacks and craps on the table. It might be foul but it's not a fould shot and he keeps his score as it is NOT listed as an offence that loses break or score (new crap rule needed? ;D)

Sav

My point entirely.
The AEBBA rules are NOT perfect, and leave scope for interpretation and future discussion.

[bigjimsilverfox]

Here is the Sussex playing rules which state Deliberte knocking over of a peg! I would question why any player would choose this action deliberatly tho?

I`m not sure many players are aware of rlue 28, worth a read!

27.   FOUL SHOTS incurring loss of entire score penalty.

a)       Knocking down the black skittle with a ball.

b)       Deliberately knocking down the black skittle with cue or hand while balls are in motion or before a ball has completely fallen down a hole.

Should both a white and black skittle be knocked down. If the white skittle falls first the penalty will be loss of break. Should the black skittle fall first then the penalty will be loss of entire score.

28.   If a player is nudged or jolted while in the act of playing a shot, causing him to play a foul shot, no penalty will be incurred.

The scorer should replace the balls in what he considers to be their original positions and the player should replay his shot.

29.   If the balls are disturbed in any way other than the normal course of play then the Scorer should replace the balls in what he considers to be their original positions and play should continue.

Sussex Playing Rules and All England Playing Rules should be one and the same, Jim. ;)

[Chris]

In our league I believe Black counts at all times ...  no exceptions as given above

Chris

[enzo]

I remember having a heated discussion about this a few months back. I believe the WDBBL and the LBBL have different rules, and in the Worthing the accidental black peg counts and in the Littlehampton doesn't. I like the additional phrase of 'whilst the balls are still in motion'.

RE rule 29; What is classified as 'normal course of play' as one could interpret this as when the ball rolls off of a dodgy D just as you play your shot, thus resulting in miscuing and ending your break/losing your score, you could demand the shot be retaken/balls replaced. I know this is usually player error, but what if a draft/floordboard/leaning on the table could be blamed for this? Surely that's no different than when pegs fall down when the table is knocked or the bar is pulled.

That started to make less sense the more I went on so I'll stop :D

On the subject of D's, if the D is raised of indented on the table, and the black leather strip causes a ridge, if the ball rocks back into this ridge, is it still classed as on the D? I assumed the rule was the the ball had to be in contact with the D and clearly still is when in this ridge. Although it was accidental and the table was forcing the ball into the ridge, I was pulled up on it and asking to play "From the D".