Hertfordshire Bar Billiards

[Deleted]

A more up-to-date report - article from "Herts Ale", 2007

Bar Billiards — Hertfordshire’s Endangered Species
Following on from last edition’s article on the threat to darts and the campaign launched to make it more available in our pubs, consider another of our once-loved pub games — bar billiards.  In its heyday this game could be found in so many of our best local pubs, tucked away in a small room or in a recess of the bar but now only a handful of Hertfordshire pubs sport a table.
The game shone brightest locally in the 1950s and 1960s when there were local and county leagues and tournaments, but
was gradually swept aside in the ensuing forty years by the onslaught of American pool.    
So what is bar billiards, where did it come and what is the current state of play?
Bar Billiards is a table game played with cues and by potting balls into 9 holes that carry differing points tariffs. All shots are taken from one end of the table, from a small D shaped area and it is called bar billiards because a wooden bar drops after a time limit (usually        up to 17 minutes in England  — though 15 minutes in the Channel Islands) preventing any more balls becoming available for use.  There are seven white balls and one red which counts for double points. In the leagues there are three skittles or mushrooms placed on the table — two white, one black — the capsizing of which will forfeit a break (white) or an entire score (black). Elsewhere tables with four skittles might be
found.  The game’s current strongest bastion of support can be found in the Channel Islands and in English counties along the Channel, from Kent round as far as Hampshire, then up through Berkshire to Oxfordshire and Northants. Here
leagues still exist and it is from Oxfordshire where the current and triple world champion, Kevin Tunstall, hails. The annual British Isles and World Championships are held in Jersey.  For those of you who play the game, the world’s
highest score, in a competitive match, is 29,000 - scored in just over 17 minutes - try getting anywhere near that!
As with so many of our pub games, its history cannot be drilled down to one clear moment of birth but in the early 1930s an Englishman called David Gill came across a game called Russian Billiards being played in Belgium (thought to be called this to make it sound more exotic).  He convinced the English manufacturer Jelkes to make a version of the game
and soon pubs were queuing to buy them, and other makers were helping to meet the demand.  The game swiftly gained popularity — the first league appearing in Oxfordshire in 1936.  Today, the game is administered by the  All England Bar Billiards Association, and it is worth investigating their website;   www.aebba.btinternet.co.uk  to find out more.  If you are a publican reading this and you’ve been toying with the idea of installing a table, just sift through the web — there are quite a few companies hiring or selling tables.

[Deleted]

Jul 5, 2012 18:47:03 GMT tommo said:

Pubs in Hertfordshire  with tables in the 1980's:
the Chequers and the Red Lion at Woolmer Green,
the Robin Hood and Little John at Rabley Heath near Welwyn;
The Rose and Crown, Aston near Stevenage;  
the Sele Arms and the  Dimsdale Arms,  both  in  Hertford;
the  Prince  of  Wales, Hertingfordbury;  
the King William, Hoddesdon;  
the North Star, Welwyn;
and the Acorn, St. Albans.

- a few extra for me to investigate on the internet !

All of these turned out to be red herrings - apart from the Chequers, still with a table 30 years later, but which we knew about already.
The Red Lion and the Prince of Wales have Pool but no bar billiards;
The Robin Hood and Little John, the Rose and Crown and the North Star have turned into gastro pubs;
The Dimsdale Arms, King William IV and Thomas Mercer S & SC are closed;
The Sele Arms is now the Bridge House and is now a gastro pub;
and the Acorn has been reinvented twice - first as the Glass House and then as the Victoria, now a gastro.


All this should come as no surprise really, as time moves on.....

tommo

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2012 19:39:54 GMT tommo said:

I hope to be paying a visit to the Orange Tree myself sometime this year....I have cousins and an ageing uncle who live in Letchworth (within 2 miles of Baldock).  

This will definitely be coming about now, but due to sad circumstances: I have heard today that my cousin Colin (father of five children) has an inoperable (grade 4) tumour of the brain. So we will be going up to see him while we still can.

Kind of puts things in perspective.

[edit] - put on hold as he starts a daily course of radiotherapy & chemotherapy, commencing today and lasting 3 months - 20/9/2012

[oldblue]

Happy to report that the White Swan in St. Albans, visited today, does again have a BB table. It had been turned into a bar called Oscars for a while but is back as a proper pub now.  The table is a well looked after 4-pin one (yes, I can now tell the difference thanks to advice from other site members). It doesn't have a coin mechanism, but the timer works and they will get the balls from behind the bar if they aren't in the table. Thus free pub bar billiards. :)

Also played on the one in the Goat last night.

OB

[Deleted]

A possible third venue in St Albans (picked up from Beer In The Evening):

VICTORIA (formerly the Glass House) 82 VICTORIA ST, ST ALBANS, HERTS AL1 3TG

Next time anyone's passing ! ;) ;D

[squirerichard]

Dec 8, 2012 17:34:44 GMT tommo said:

A possible third venue in St Albans (picked up from Beer In The Evening):

VICTORIA (formerly the Glass House) 82 VICTORIA ST, ST ALBANS, HERTS AL1 3TG

Next time anyone's passing ! ;) ;D

I'll check this out, hopefully soon!

[squirerichard]

Last week we went to the Orange Tree in Baldock and found the Bar Billiards table is now in its own room. It's also had a new baize fitted :-)

hamandeggerfiles.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/fish-chips-gluten-free-dessert-and-some.html

Attachments:

[squirerichard]

Feb 4, 2013 12:12:25 GMT squirerichard said:

Dec 8, 2012 17:34:44 GMT tommo said:

A possible third venue in St Albans (picked up from Beer In The Evening):

VICTORIA (formerly the Glass House) 82 VICTORIA ST, ST ALBANS, HERTS AL1 3TG

Next time anyone's passing ! ;) ;D

I'll check this out, hopefully soon!

A Tweeted and Facebooked the pub.

They said they've never had a table.

thevictoriainstalbans.co.uk/

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2013 13:55:28 GMT squirerichard said:

A Tweeted and Facebooked the pub.

They said they've never had a table.

There was the briefest of mentions on this page:

www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/comments.shtml/20938/

That was in its previous guise as the Glass House, though, so they probably feel they have gone too far up market for BB's.

These things have to be checked out, though, and thanks very much for your research on this venue, which we shall now have taken off the map.

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2012 19:18:43 GMT tommo said:

Feb 26, 2012 19:39:54 GMT tommo said:

I hope to be paying a visit to the Orange Tree myself sometime this year....I have cousins and an ageing uncle who live in Letchworth (within 2 miles of Baldock).  

This will definitely be coming about now, but due to sad circumstances: I have heard today that my cousin Colin (father of five children) has an inoperable (grade 4) tumour of the brain. So we will be going up to see him while we still can.

Kind of puts things in perspective.

[edit] - put on hold as he starts a daily course of radiotherapy & chemotherapy, commencing today and lasting 3 months - 20/9/2012

Well, the saddest turn of events meant that I made the trip to Baldock today to attend my cousin Colin's funeral. He had hung on until July and had prepared a video message which was shown by projector in the church. It was strange to hear laughter as he ended with an 'I'm coming to get you' message to some cheeky lads who had burgled his house a year ago, with the camera panning to him wearing a "The Scream" mask. RIP cousin.

So after the service and burial ceremony it was back to the pub for the wake, and it was...the Orange Tree!

Obviously the solemnity of the occasion did not warrant playing bar billiards, but I managed to sneak a look at the table in its little games room.

I can report that it is an ancient Riley table with the round handle/plunger. It has a nice cloth, yes, but rather amazingly the holes are not of the normal 2 inch in diameter - they look more like an inch and a half. So obviously smaller balls are used.

Strange how new variations of the hardware used to play our game keep getting discovered...

[Deleted]

Following Tony(Barbelman)'s diligence in publicizing Pete Farrelly's Bar Billiards Quarterlies, on his Witney website, a little more is now known of Hertfordshire's participation in bar billiards on a national level.....

Although this extended back into the 1980s and probably 1970s, this record covers briefly activity in the early 1990's up to its eventual demise:

BBQ1 - Mar 1991
The 9th British Pairs was once again held at the Landsdowne Hotel, Eastbourne (all previous winners listed) Hertfordshire pair P.Freeman and R.Blakeney reached the quarter-final
BBQ4 - Jan 1992
At 1991 AGM: "now only 13 affiliated counties: Lincs, Avon and Herts have withdrawn"
BBQ10 - July 1993
Mention of previous winners of the All-England ladies…….2 ladies dominant in the first 12 years: Hertfordshire’s Viv Wright (previously Bacon and Shepherd) 1974; 1977-82; 1985; 1986 and Hampshire’s Chris Newson (previously Cole, Stillwell and Toner) 1975,1976 & 1984

No record on Hertfordshire would be complete without mention that the greatest ever player (Kevin Tunstall) and lady player (Viv Shepherd) both started their playing careers in the county before moving away from the area.

[geoff]

If I recall correctly Kevin and Viv were in the team that the Flying Scud played in the
first round of the All England Club Finals in 1976 at the Billing Aquadrome in Northants.
The Scud went on to win it that year. I won 2 games and lost 1. We beat a team from
Sussex in the final.

[Deleted]

Apr 20, 2014 12:56:29 GMT geoff said:

We beat a team from
Sussex in the final.

Would that be the Crabtree, Lancing, Geoff ?

Further investigations reveal that Hertfordshire had four finalists in the All-England individuals around that time:
In 1977 Ernie Jordan (now of Bucks) was runner-up;
Kevin Tunstall (later Oxon and now of Sussex) was winner in 1980;
Terry Isard (also now of Bucks) won it in 1982;
and finally Darrell Johnson was champion in 1985.

[Deleted]

A couple of mentions of Herts, very active and staging Ladies County events, from early AEBBA minutes:

16/1/1982 AGM @ Fox & Hounds, Reading
Arrangements for Mens County, Groups A,B (to be held in Sussex, Sep 1982); Ladies County, Groups A,B (to be held in Herts early/mid Oct 1982);

13/12/1980 AGM @ Fox & Hounds, Reading
Mens County, Group A in Cambs in October and Group B in Bucks also in October. Ladies: Group A in Surrey in Sep, Group B in Herts in Sep. Grand Finals at Byfleet on 8/11/81.

[Deleted]

Apr 5, 2017 11:19:28 GMT barbelman said:

One to add info from a new member and landlord, Nigel Stead
THE ROYAL GEORGE, 8 Silver Street, Stevington, Bedfordshire MK43 7QP

Added to Herts & Beds List........now two in Beds, the other one being the Cock at Pavenham. Gerry Smith (Mid Sussex) did not see a single b-b table in Bedfordshire during his 10-year sojourn there.

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2017 13:02:39 GMT tommo said:

Tommo was let out on the long leash again yesterday and his adventures took him to Hertfordshire......

..... St Albans was a must visit and Sopwell Lane has some Tudor-style buildings. Half way down on the left I found the Goat Inn (closed for the afternoon of course) but lo and behold ! through the window there was the bar billiards table which predictably had seen better days. It has the Bar Billiards Ltd rectangular plaque and circular NBBA Approved label but at a guess is still using the old pounds as tokens. The cloth is faded with torn edges round the cups which are sunken, and there were only two mushrooms, placed in front of the 50s. (So I'd just go for a straight 400 pot off the break !)

[kentpoolie]

Hi all. Originally played bar billiards back in the mid 1980's in a league in Watford, Hert but stopped due to the age old problem of pubs/clubs taking tables out.Last year whilst in the Dover Works Club, got talking to Wendy Ellis and here I am now. Have packed in playing pool to get back into this.
Chris has asked me for my memories of playing back then so here goes.
Played for the Watford Ex-servicemen Club in Watford. 10p a go was all it cost.
Still got and using my original cue (careful now) which is older than my children.
Got involved with the Hertfordshire County Team and travelled to such places as Cambridgeshire, Oxfordshire, Bedfordshire and the yearly drunken festival at Eastbourne.
The one memory that sticks tho is a tournament at an RAF base in Reading. Pic if trophies to follow.
Gregg

[tommo]

Hi Gregg and welcome.

We always welcome the opportunity to add to the game's history, prior to 1991 especially, and you might wish to read back to the start of this thread where we have documented all we know about Hertfordshire involvement. Anything you can add to this will be appreciated.

Also, there is a menu at the top of this page and if you click on "Comps Timeline" that will allow you to research back prior to 1991 which was the start of the "Opens" era.

And I imagine you will be looking up the Dover and Deal League in preparation for your comeback !

www.barbilliardsdd.co.uk/

Rgds,

Zeds (aka tommo)

[jordans]

Hi Gregg

Very interested to find out who you played with in the Herts County team. My husband (Ernie Jordan), Steve Allard and Terry Izard are all original members of the Watford league and now play over in the Wycombe league. Ernie played in the Duke of York with people like Ken & Ray Hussey, Terry Ulph and Gerry Lambert. Ernie left the Watford league in the mid 80's to play in the Wycombe league, but Steve and Terry carried on for a few years.

We were all out last night at a BB do, read your post and they asked me find out :)

Dawn

[tommo]

Nov 17, 2017 16:34:52 GMT tommo said:

Nov 17, 2017 13:02:39 GMT tommo said:

Tommo was let out on the long leash again yesterday and his adventures took him to Hertfordshire......

..... St Albans was a must visit and Sopwell Lane has some Tudor-style buildings. Half way down on the left I found the Goat Inn (closed for the afternoon of course) but lo and behold ! through the window there was the bar billiards table which predictably had seen better days. It has the Bar Billiards Ltd rectangular plaque and circular NBBA Approved label but at a guess is still using the old pounds as tokens. The cloth is faded with torn edges round the cups which are sunken, and there were only two mushrooms, placed in front of the 50s. (So I'd just go for a straight 400 pot off the break !)

This blog also mentions a visit to the Goat Inn:

stonch.blogspot.com/2007/01/st-albans-pub-crawl-in-camras-home-town.html

[tommo]

Returning to recent discussions on the former Watford League, I contacted the World Champ to see how much he could recall from memory.  This was his reply:

Quote:

I started playing in Herts as you probably know in my dads first pub, the Duke of York , Croxley Green at the age of 9, obviously too young for the league, I had to wait another 7 years before that, which was the Plough, Belsize ( another of Dads pubs. Following that one was the Coach & Horses, back in Croxley Green. Other venues that I can remember were the Three Tuns, Hemel Hempstead ( a top player called Joe Di Piano played here) the Ex Servicemans Club ,Watford - the Coachmakers, Watford ( two very good players in Andy Barron & Pete Freeman came from there) , I think also Steve Allard ( who still plays in Bucks I think). Derek White was another top player(can't remember his pub). The first team at the Coach & Horses included Ernie & Viv, also Terry Ulph, Malcolm Picton & Mick Shrimpton, all good players. Now I'm struggling. I remember there were over 30+ teams but their names escape me.
I remember going down to the County championships with Herts in the 70s and although we had a strong team, could never quite match the strong Sussex, Kent, Berks & Bucks sides, also in the Watney Mann Straight 8s( now the AE team championships)
It seems so long ago now and it was so sad when the league folded, probably the first to do so in the late 80s I think.
If I remember any more Clive, I'll let you know
Regards
KT

[tommo]

So it would appear that there was a proliferation of venues in Croxley Green, a village near Rickmansworth.....

Most are still there but the sad news is the Duke of York was demolished in 2008 to make way for a housing development of seven 5-bedroom houses known as Dukes Place.

Coach & Horses on The Green is still there, though, but the Coachmakers Arms is another casualty - that's now a hardware store.

[tommo]

Definitive list of venues for Herts and Beds

Non-League venues (Bedfordshire) NB. Former East Beds League no longer in existence.
Cock, High St Pavenham, Bedfordshire MK43 7NJ 01234 822 834
Royal George, 8 Silver Street, Stevington, Bedfordshire MK43 7QP

Non-League venues (Hertfordshire) NB. Former Watford League and North Herts League no longer in existence.

Goat Inn, 37 Sopwell Lane, St Albans, Hertfordshire AL1 1RN 01727 833 934
White Swan, 1 Upper Dagnall St, St Albans, Hertfordshire AL3 5EA 01727 830 611
Our Mutual Friend, Broadwater Crescent, Stevenage, Hertfordshire SG2 8EH
Chequers Inn, 16 London Rd, Woolmer Green, Knebworth, Hertfordshire SG3 6JP 01438 813 216
Strathmore Arms, Whitwell Rd, St. Pauls Walden, Hitchin, Hertfordshire SG4 8BT 01438 871654
Orange Tree, Norton Road, Baldock, Herts SG7 5AW

Blind Fiddler, Anstey, Nr Buntingford, Herts SG8 8DH 01763 848 000

Northfield (Housing Estate Depot) Puckeridge, Ware, Herts SG11 1TP

White Horse, 33 Castle St, Hertford SG14 1HH 01992 503 911

List of Archived venues

Thomas Mercer Sports and Social Club, Cotton Mill Lane, St. Albans, Herts AL1 2HQ
Victoria (formerly Glass House, and The Acorn) 82 Victoria Street, St Albans, Hertfordshire AL1 3TG
North Star, 82 Great North Road, Welwyn Garden City, Herts AL6 0TA

Robin Hood & Little John, 8 Danesbury Park Road, Codicote, Welwyn Garden City, Herts AL6 9UG

Sun Inn, 31 Lemsford Village, Lemsford, Welwyn Garden City, Herts AL8 7TN

King William IV, 197 Lord Street, Hoddesdon, Herts EN11 8NG

The Reindeer, Maxwell Rd, Northwood, Middlesex HA6 2YF

White Lion, 44 London Rd Apsley End Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire HP3 9SB

Three Tuns, Belswaines Lane, Nash Mills, Kings Langley, Hemel Hempstead, Herts HP3 9XB

Red Lion, Vicarage Road, Marsworth (Nr Tring) Bucks HP23 4LU

Red Lion, Church Road, Studham, Dunstable, Bedfordshire LU6 2QA
Rose and Crown, 10 Benington Road, Aston, Stevenage SG2 7DX
Red Lion, 26 London Road, Woolmer Green, Knebworth, Herts SG3 6JP
Bucks Head, Stevenage Road, Little Wymondley, Hertfordshire SG4 7HY
Bedford Arms, 13 Bedford Road, Hitchin, Hertfordshire SG5 2TP
Dimsdale Arms, 78/80 Fore Street, Hertford SG14 1BY
Bridge House (formerly Sele Arms) North Road , Hertford SG14 1NA
Prince of Wales,244 Hertingfordbury Road, Hertingfordbury, Herts SG14 2LG
Sportsman, 2 Scots Hill, Croxley Green, Rickmansworth, Herts WD3 3AD
Duke of York (later The Duke), 19 Watford Road, Croxley Green, Rickmansworth, Herts WD3 3DL
Red House, Watford Road, Croxley Green, Rickmansworth, Herts WD3 3DX
Coach and Horses, The Green, Croxley Green, Rickmansworth, Herts WD3 3HX

Plough, Dunny Lane, Belsize, Rickmansworth, Herts WD3 4NP

Old Shepherd, Chorleywood Bottom, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth WD3 5JH

Watford Ex-Services Club, 12/14 St Albans Road, Watford WD17 1BN

Coachmakers Arms, 30 High Street, Watford WD17 1EA

Railway Arms, 1 Aldenham Road, Oxhey, Watford WD19 4AB

Colne Valley Club, Eastbury Road, Oxhey, Watford WD19 4NR

Red Lion, 50 High Street, Bushey, Herts WD23 3HN

[tommo]

This has been sent to me by new Forum member Cushty:

Quote:

Have been requested to forward some details of the now defunct Watford league.

When I joined the league in 1980 there were the following tables & players:

Red Lion, Bushey - Had three tables - Derek Colbourn

Old Shepherd, Chorleywood - Viv Shepherd, Ernie Jordan, Terry Ulph.

Railway Arms - A team - Derek White, Philip White, Paul Bryce(Northants) and myself.
B team - Terry Isard, Steve Spurr, Tony Clack ( All previously played at The Reindeer, Northwood).

Three Tuns, Kings Langley - Joe De Piano.

Watford Ex-Servicemans Club - Lou Brown, Ted Davidson, Alan Milner.

Red House, Croxley Green.

Colne Valley Club, Oxhey - Steve Pople.

Coachmakers Arms - Watford - Pete Freeman, Andy Baron, George Howard.

Will collate this against what we already have - probably tommorow now !

tommo

Done - five of the above added to the list of archived venues, four were already known   - tommo 13/3/2020