Putting a ball on the table......

[milhouse]

What are people's thoughts about putting a ball on the table after you have finished your visit ?
There were a couple of comments from people on Saturday during the open so what better place to discuss than on here !!!

[hon Vice President]

I thought it was widely touted as being common courtesy Millhouse. Certainly, when playing a newbie in our league, you'll hear the whispered refrain "remember to put a ball up" should said newbie miss. I can't think of anyone who makes a point of NOT putting a ball up as they leave the table. In fact, some of us have; on occasion, been known to announce the very act of doing so by banging it down somewhat forcefully - particularly when adversity strikes ;)

The only exception which springs to mind is to mention, when relevant, that the red ball is coming back as you leave - and offer your opponent the option of using it or not.

[Chunky Monkey]

Yes i agree honchair about it being common courtesy. When i first started playing it was a bad habbit of mine forgetting to pick the ball up, now it is just a natural thing i do.

I have come accross someone how ever who did make a point of not putting the ball on the table in the reading open last year who is well known to us all. He done this several time in our match. he picked the ball up and threw it back in the tray when the shot didn't go his way. Yes the table was difficult and was hard work but who cares he was 5k infront anyway with the table loaded and 3 minutes to go.

[BB Warrior]

I would say that it should be a matter of simple courtesy to put a ball up on the table for your opponent when you miss, although it shouldn't be used as an excuse to linger at the table and get in their way!

Certainly, the only justifiable reason that I can think of not to do this would be if you have knocked a peg over and the red ball is taking it's time rolling around a hole before it returns, at which time I would normally leave a white on the side and make a point of telling my opponent that the red is coming back.

I can understand that "new" players may forget to do it, but people playing at Tournament level really have no excuse...... no matter how disappointed they may be about the shot that they have just missed!

I'm glad to say that it's not a problem that I have encountered very often, a couple of times with new players, only once as deliberate (and persistent) choice by a VERY BAD LOSER.......!! >:(

[NigelS]

Is it a very common problem? I think in all the years I have been playing I have never had a problem with anyone on this issue so a bit surprised it was mentioned Saturday and would imagine the problem an isolated one.

On the whole, it is common etiquette that you put a ball up and I do think 99% of the time it is adhered to.

[Chris_Sav]

I will always put a ball on the table for my opponent UNLESS there is a ball teetering on the edge of the hole in which case I will stand away from the table. I do not touch the table if a ball is finishing on the edge of a hole.

NOT ALL people adhere to that >:( and the teetering ball drops as the cue ball hits the 'D' and they carry on.

Sav

[Lolly]

Good point Sav and this also begs another question that came up last night too.

A ball is left on the edge of the hole, yet you are still at the table. As you strike the cue ball the ball on the edge of the hole drops. The cue ball, then has no other ball to touch, and if you are lucky it either drops down a hole or remains on the table. Is this then deemed a foul as the cue ball has not hit another ball?

My opinion on the ball on table is also that it is common courtisy. However, you tend to get to know those people who never do it. There are several out there, but you learn to deal with it.

[WolfLord]

In the Worthing League this comes under Playing Rule 11. This states 'If a player plays at a ball on the lip of a hole and the ball falls before the cue ball reaches it no penalty will be incurred, the score will count for both object and cue ball and the player will continue with the break, except for any penalty incurred before the cue ball reaches the position previously occupied by the object ball'.
I hope this helps.

[CraigC]

If a player sometimes forgets it's not a problem, if a player has been playing for years and doesn't replace the ball it is poor etiquette, but that must be extremely rare.
The other point (about not disturbing the table by placing the ball with another teetering over the hole) hadn't really considered, as I place place the ball on the D as part of turning round and walking away from the table. Shall
pay more attention in future though when that happens to me.

[bigtj]

Certainly a matter of etiquette, but do agree it is sporting to leave theballs in the tray if it may interfere with another hanging over the hole, or the red is on it`s way back. Did not personally notice it Saturday, but have encountered it over the years when somebody is annoyed with themselves or frustrated at their luck, still not acceptable, but we are all different as to how we take bad luck.

Agree with all those who say it is a matter of common courtesy, but it's not exactly the crime of the century if a player forgets to do it - unless they habitually do it to try and wind you up.

What is a crime is an over-firm handshake before the start of the game. I wouldn't exactly say that I have a wimpish handshake myself, but on more than one occasion I've had my bones crushed and hardly been able to hold the cue afterwards. >:(

[bigjimsilverfox]

I have always put a ball up for the next player unless I have pegged a break and that ball maybe coming back as it maybe on the peg spot! However I do not take any offence if my opponent leaves the ball in the tray.

I think it`s a personal thing so I`ve always been a nice person and done it

[Colemanator]

I always do it, i will put the red on the table as well, i won't do it when there is a ball to be returned, ie i've just pinned it, i don't know the reasons behind people not doing it, you'd better ask them that.

[Martin Leach]

Sav brings up an interesting point.

A long time ago when I first played in the Portsmouth League, there was a player called Jimmy Duke who never put a ball up. Evidently, he was once accused of causing a teetering ball to drop by placing the ball on the table. He was a real gentleman player, and I know that it could not have been intentional, but the accusation must have cut him deeply. We all understood.

He also taught me an important lesson. We once both played in the Portsmouth Billiard League (the one on the big table with two whites and a red). As a cocky young player I had gone from a handicap of 35 down to scratch in my first seven games. When I saw that I was playing a chap in his late seventies I thought I'd continue my winning streak. Then I found out that his handicap was -300! He was in front after his first break and beat me in two visits!

[Pompey (R.I.P.)]

Sad to say Martin that James Henry ( Jim ) Duke passed away on the 8 December 2007 aged 95.
You should hace been warned that whilst he played bar billiards for very many years his passion was snooker.

[Martin Leach]

I'm sorry to hear that, Pompey. Jim was a real gentleman. Mind you, I have a picture of him somewhere on his 80th birthday with a strippergram girl on his lap, and she said that he still had "lead in his pencil"! I wonder what she meant?

[fazza]

It's all to do with writing one's memoirs!

[Ros]

Not only is this a courtesy, it is also a time saver. Most players will be retrieving the next ball before the last shot is complete, so leaving it 'up' for the next player will save a second or two, which over the course of a game could add up to a significant amount of time.

There used to be a 'character' called Freeland Eastwood in Mid Sussex (playing for the Green Man and other venues in Horsted Keynes) he had an old Sussex accent and was well known for his habit of bashing the ball down on the screws of the coin slot when he left the table.

I also wince if a player bashes the ball down on the D in displeasure.

There used to be a team of lads in the Horsham League called the Partridge 'B' - good players, they did actually win the top division one year.
They seemed to suffer from mood swings, some nights they were great company, very entertaining (they used to keep a diary which was hilarious to read) but other nights they could come over as being a bit aggressive.

One match in particular at Ye Olde Six Bells is memorable because they took a heavy beating and all of them lost their tempers in a different way. One banged the ball down hard on the D after missing, one threw his cue into a corner, one flicked the black peg up in the air when he couldn't win, one thrashed a ball at what was left after the bar had gone, setting about six balls in motion, and my chap whenever it was my turn brought the next ball out of the tray and whizzed it back and forth sideways in baulk so I had to make a grab for it each time ! :o

Somehow the whole spectacle seemed hilarious, so the match was completed in quite good humour. To me, that's what it's all about.

[milko]

(I have bumped this thread)

Last Sunday one lady player was asked by her opponent why she did not put the ball on the table after missing. The lady has never done it but that doesn’t mean she should start now, nor should the captain be asked to intervene and ask her to put the ball up!!

It’s not in the AEBBA rules but some people seem to think that it is common courtesy to do it. As far as I’m concerned it’s up to the individual whether they do it or not. I don’t have an issue with it at all but obviously some players do judging by what I’ve heard happened on Sunday.

I do hope she wasn’t got at on purpose to wind her up because that would be totally out of order to try to gain a point that way.

Theirs worse things that happen, for instance when your opponent deliberately stands close to the table in your eye line but again there is no rule to stop them.


Keith

It should be a common courtesy, Keith.    Quid quo pro.

No reason why she shouldn't start now, I'd say.

When I played Geoff Powell at Reading a couple of weeks ago, he apologised before the game started in case he should forget to bring a ball out, which I thought was a nice touch.

[PaulS]

I always do it unless the red is coming back after a foul in which case I leave my opponent to choose which ball they want.

It is purely courtesy and therefore a personal choice.

I did however have a bad experience many years ago in Jersey when on every occasion I put a ball up, my opponent, (who shall remain nameless and was leading) put it back in the tray before deciding which shot to play and picking up another ball!!!

[barbelman]

I really don't know where this idea has come from.  I have been playing a little while now and it has NEVER been convention to put the ball for one's opponent, at least North of the Thames.  I do it in friendly games but would never do in league or county games because of the possible implications.  To say it is discourteous not to do it is total garbage - I think I am an extremely courteous opponent always and yet by not putting the ball up for my opponents I have suddenly become the spawn of the devil! :o  I think it may be something that has become common in Opens and national events and everyone else is expected to conform......

There are a lot worse things wrong with Bar Billiards at the moment and in my view the harassment that (the lady Keith referred to) received on Sunday is far worse. As a player of over thirty years standing, she was somewhat surprised to be nagged about putting the ball up DURING THE GAME by someone who had obviously not been at it very long.  She explained that this was how she learned to play the game and it was not intended as a slur.  Anyway the woman kept on throughout the game and possibly succeeded in unsettling her opponent to such an extent that (the lady Keith referred to) had two black pegs and lost the game.  In her next game the captain of this woman came to up (the lady Keith referred to) and starting telling her again that she should be putting the ball up for her opponent and again she did this nagging DURING THE GAME.  I think she got told to go away or similar!  (The lady Keith referred to)'s captain was then petitioned and told that she must go and tell (the lady Keith referred to) that she must put the ball up for her opponent and she, quite rightly, refused.  For goodness sake, what is up with these people?

As an addendum to this, another girl was in the car park having a fag and she overheard another group of ladies (with a vested interest) laughing about the fact that (the lady Keith referred to) was talked out of her game....very sporting behaviour don't you think?  Makes not putting the ball up for your opponent seem quite trivial doesn't it?  I hasten to add that, AFAIK, none of the ladies mentioned previously was in the car park group of players.

My point in saying this is that there are FAR worse examples of discourtesy extant in bar billiards these days than not putting the ball on the table for your opponent and that it is NOT discourtesy but habit that makes people not do it.

As an amusing aside, when I was learning the game in the sixties, there was, on the Oxford committee, a formidable character called Freddie Williams who was a retired football referee - all stripey ties and blazers.  Being innocent neophytes we were in awe of this guy and when he was chalking we were never allowed to even touch the table while the balls were in motion - i.e. until they had appeared in the trap, let alone put a ball up for our opponents! :-/

cheers
Tony

[BB Warrior]

Personally, I am in the same group as Tommo and PaulS in that I will always put a ball up on the table for my opponent, I believe that it IS a simple courtesy to do this, however it is entirely up to my opponent as to whether they choose to do the same.

However, to correct Tony slightly on one of the points that he made......

Oct 5, 2010 10:50:27 GMT barbelman said:

As an addendum to this, another girl was in the car park having a fag and she overheard another group of ladies (with a vested interest) laughing about the fact that (the lady Keith referred to) was talked out of her game....very sporting behaviour don't you think?  Makes not putting the ball up for your opponent seem quite trivial doesn't it?  I hasten to add that, AFAIK, none of the ladies mentioned previously was in the car park group of players.

..... I was in the car park (having one of many fags ::)) and believe that I may have overheard the conversation that he refers to above.  However, and assuming that it was the same occasion, I would have to say that it was players from another County Team entirely that were discussing it and not either of the two Counties involved in the actual incident itself.

I would agree entirely with Tony that the matter should not have continued after the game had finished and certainly nobody should be complaining to a player when they are playing their next match.  I would certainly have told anybody to go away (or similar words! :-X) had it been me.

For me, deliberate barracking or abuse (rather than "friendly banter", which can be an amusing part of the game) that is directed at a player during the course of the game should never be permitted and anybody found doing this should be immediately asked to leave the area of the table by either the Captain or the scorer at the time.  If they persist, then they should be banned from playing the game. >:(

Unfortunately, as Tony says, there are occasionally far worse examples of discourtesy within the game, usually from the same (very small) minority of people, than not putting a ball on the table for your opponent..... :'(

[barbelman]

Oct 5, 2010 11:59:16 GMT BB Warrior said:

..... I was in the car park (having one of many fags ::)) and believe that I may have overheard the conversation that he refers to above.  However, and assuming that it was the same occasion, I would have to say that it was players from another County Team entirely that were discussing it and not either of the two Counties involved in the actual incident itself.

Thanks for clearing that up Dave - I was careful to stress that I thought none of the players involved were out there but that confirms it. :)

cheers
Tony

[milko]

I always put the ball up for my opponent but I also had a bad experience a long time ago.  I was leading in a game and went to pick a ball out of the tray and was sent flying out of the way by my opponent (they wouldn't do it these days, as I'm a big boy now!! ;D).


Keith

A final ?  word from me...........

In no particular order, crimes against etiquette in Ladies' circles...................

Pushing ahead in a queue to be served  first at the bar.
Slamming door in someone's face.
Farting in the close vicinity of a lady.
Failing to bring a ball out of the rack for the opponent.

Unfortunately, at one time or other Margo has been subject to all of the above at Opens, but strangely never in local circles.

[Sir Chancelot]

Interesting one this from a Channel Islander's point of view.
Until we started attending the British Open (now World's) in Jersey, all Guernsey players used to put the ball on the the spot for their opponents, at the end of a break.
As we always play from the spot, and not seeing any different, there was not much choice.
After noticing English players sometimes not geting the ball out of the tray at the end of a break, or just placing it on the table, some of the Guernsey players started the habit, both at opens and in Guernsey league games.
I all depends if you opponent is ahead or not if he or she re spots the ball, even though it is on the spot, dare I say it, as a time wasting tactic.
I now often tend to get out of the way fairly sharpish, if my opponent is breathing down my neck wanting to get on the table without picking a ball out of the tray, especially if the ref is replacing a peg, or marking up the score, and the player can not take the shot anyway.
Some players will always pick up a ball spotted by an opponent at the start of the break, simply out of habit, be it time wasting or not.

[milhouse]

As we are talking about a courtesy thing here ......
Just a side note - what are people's views about apologising (putting a hand up) for a lucky shot ?

[Chris_Sav]

Putting the ball on the table is pretty small beer IMHO, barracking players over it is not.

Interesting that many Oxford don't and the old Canterbury league did not (in fact it was frowned upon in some places) and they were the two prevalent counties at the formation of the game.

Far worse examples of bad sportsmanship go unmentioned such as deliberately excessive slow play when in front, standing there for ages trying to decide how to pot a straight 50 or chalking your cue when you arrive at the table, scorers who always seem to make mistakes in the same direction or call one-up on the third break to disturb concentration. Deliberate misses. Touching the table when a ball teeters on the edge of the hole and it drops. Inuendo in comments when a player is playing.

Too many to mention and it's been going on for the forty plus years I've been playing and never been addressed and it's difficult to see how it can.

Barracking a player for any reason (right or wrong) during a game is inexcuseable in my view. Any form of upset destroys concentration in a game we are supposed to be playing for enjoyment.

Sav