New Tournament Idea - Your Thoughts Please

[Owners' Account]

Hi Everyone,

Had a crazy idea and thought I would put it out there. Sometimes the best ideas start off in the head of a mad man, which is exactly what I am. Not only that I've not posted on my own forum for ages so thought I would bore you a bit....

But this I believe could work. So listen to all of what I have to say before making an opinion.

There is as you know, next to no prize money in Bar Billiards. I was talking with someone last week about weather or not he had ever played for money. I won't give you the name of the player, because it's only fair I protect Steve Mariner's identity, but he said that there use to be the odd cash game flowing about that he took part in.

As you know I'm one for raising the profile of our game and coming up with new ideas, so this is what I was thinking.

The problem is that Bar Billiard is a pub game, which is fair enough, and if for example a tournament was created with say a £100 entrance fee, then I'm sure only a few people would turn up, which again is fair enough. This might make the tournamnt hardly worth putting on....

However....

I play a small amount of poker on line, and always enter big tournament's that cost around £50 to enter. The thing is I don't actually pay that £50, because before a big tournament like that there are always many smaller tournaments that in the poker world are called "Satellites". That's a small tournament of say 50 players who only pay £1 to enter with the winner, instead of getting the £50 prize money, gets a free entrance to the bigger £50 buy-in tournament.

So you see what I'm getting at here.....

The World Series of Poker is the biggest poker tournament in the world, and attracts 8,000 players, who all have to pay £10,000 to enter. But over 7,500 of those players this year qualified by winning a satellite at an on-line poker site and got a free entry. Some players paid £1,000 to enter a 10 man tournament with the winner getting there free entrance to the world series, but some players only paid £5 to enter a 2,000 player tournament. I'm sure you see what I mean.

I think this might work with Bar Billiards.

There has never been a big event like this in Bar Billiards, and without wishing to take anything away for Jersey (which was great this year) it's something I would like people to think about.

With my satellite idea in mind, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to create an action plan that looks something like the following.....

We book a Brighton Hotel Function Room for the weekend and see if we can get them to sponsor the tournament (would be useful if we knew a Brighton DJ or something who already has asked and knows that this would be possible using his influence) and that would give us a top notch venue. Because of the higher stakes, the tournament would only be a few tables, and all games a longer format (say aggregate over 4 legs). This is important to remember as I would love a tournament with a long format to see who the real players really are. The entrance to the tournament would be just for arguments sake £150. Now you can either just pay the money to enter (and given the longer format I would be interested to see how many top players would do this, personally I would pay it without thinking) or you could win a satellite to the tournament.

These smaller qualifying tournaments can be held anywhere in the country, even in the local pub. When you think about it, you can just hold your own 16 player competition in your local pub which cost £10 to enter and the winner gets a place in the grand final. Or your league team could just put £1 each intpo a pot each week and the and have your own knockout on a practice night with the winner using the money to enter. When you break it down like that, it makes it a real possibility.

Of course these tournament would be down to individuals and pubs to run themselves, but when you think about it, many pubs may well be interested in a house championship, so you could use that to send a player to the grand final. Also many pubs might well be interested in just paying one of there players to represent there pub and the grand final.

So when you look at it like that, and take into account all the venues all around the country, it's fair to say you could come up with a great many qualifies to the main event in Brighton. If I was a landlord, I would certainly hold a house championship ever year with the winner getting a place at the grand final for £150 pounds.

Then when we get to the grand final, because of such a big prize pot, we can pay a small amount (say £10 per match) for a scorer so there would be no problems in finding a scorer, and the event would carry a huge prize pool. Because of the less tables it would make for a great spectator event. Lets say you got 64 qualifies only.... That's a nice amount for a 2 day tournament with a longer game format, and the prize pool for the tournament would be around £10,000. That means the winner would get £5000, the runner up £2000, and £1000 each for the semi-finalists, and say £1000 for the highest break....

OK, that gives you an idea. Of course there are many ways in which you could do this (for example the grand finals could be a league format) but basically my idea would be to have a much longer tournament format to show who the best players are, coupled with a large entrance fee. The large entrance fee is the only problem I was trying to get around given the fact our game is a pub sport, however with my satellite idea (which by the way has literally taken poker from a American past time to a world phenomena, which would can see on TV all day and all night) it becomes a very, very attractive idea.

So that's my idea. I'd be really interested to hear your suggestion. Look at it another way.... what harm can trying it cause?

Well, honourable leader, here are my thoughts on the subject - which probably won't go down too well - and I hope that others will follow with their honest views too, for or against.

First of all, I would say that I rejoice at the fact that what we take part in is - though fiercely competitive at times - primarily an amateur sport. I think money would ruin it. I played Pool for three years and got fed up when it got too "cut-throat": I couldn't go out with the missus and have practise games because of the "Winner-stays-on rule"; the Rules governing fouls are changed every year; and the Red Lion, Cowfold were once warned away from attending a regional finals in Southampton unless they wished to be maimed. :o

Secondly, there IS money in bar billiards from time to time. There was prize money given out at the World Championships last weekend; competitors in that included both a Jersey and a Guernsey bookmaker, and Mario will always be pleased to take money off you any time should you want a fun side bet. Tarratts have sponsored competitions in Sussex in the past, although not this century ! And cash prizes are given out at all the Opens. So, the rewards are there for anyone who aspires to winning them, but obviously they're not lucrative enough to make a living out of !

On the positive side, any new competitions are usually received well. When I was Horsham Secretary I inaugurated quite a few - two with local sponsorship - and I think you have to in order to keep things fresh.

The kindest thing I can suggest is that if you want a super-competitive event like that, with a massive personal outlay up front, turn either the Sussex Masters or the Brighton Masters into such an event. Once you've piloted the scheme, if it's a success, then maybe you could make it National. But as things stand, the only other County that might be remotely interested into taking up the challenge would be Oxfordshire.

I personally would rather play in a fun event for charity, much like Northants are about to arrange. Sorry, but that's the bottom line.

(Edited for afterthought)
Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe there is room in our game for sponsorship - up to a certain level - and at the moment there is not enough of it !

[Owners' Account]

Well it's the age old question really, do you keep doing what we are doing and let the game die out, or do you try and move things forward, try and raise the profile a bit...

I respect your comments of course, but there are thousands of pounds available playing darts at the top level, which started out as a pub tournament, and I don;t see how that has hindered the local darts leagues in pubs at all.... or stops people playing it for fun.

Also remember that all sport is amateur, even football. Just because Chelsea players make millions a year, does that stop your local football team playing down the park on Saturday?

[Owners' Account]

It's also important two remember two things.

1... this is just a crazy Idea

2.... It's a once a year thing which in no way takes anything away from any already established tournaments....

I'm sure there are some big money players out there someone, or at the very least some gamblers.....

Can I play in he satellite tournament for those people that have never played before. You could then put, KT, Fazza, Sheard (all of them!), Mariner, Sainsbury, turner et al in one of their own!! Just to weight it a little in my favour!!

Well me being young, I like the competitive side to Bar Billiards and I won't be the only youngster!
I believe competitive Bar Billiards is what's keeping it going, can you honestly believe people that turn up to a Open by choice and pay an entrance fee then play the top players do it just for a day out ??? I am not saying it's impossible but most people turn up to an Open to prove something.

Glenn is this "Idea" kind of like the Grand Prix Masters where the best players of the "Satellite" competition's, fight it out for "£5000"?
If so then I guess it would be a good idea, maybe a trial run or something ???

However I think the idea of money depends on a few things:

1) Will players who win the "Satellite" competition want to pay all that money just to enter?

2) You need a sponsor to cover costs, otherwise you will take money and just give it back to the winners etc...

3) How could you get this event to be on Television and get Television rights and sponsors?

I think Glenn is right with the "Age old question" as Jersey has one of it's lowest figures, Tables are getting increasingly hard to get, pub teams are dieing out (Cambridge had a solid 16 pub teams now we have scrapped 9)!

I would like you to read this part,

I can understand people hate the "real fighters" in the game, however are they hating them because of there Etiquette or Jealousy?
I think hunger is healthy in Bar Billiards and if it ever reached TV hunger to win would raise the profile of it "just being a pub game".

I would like to see this idea possibly take a trial, however I think you need a sponsor to pay for prizes!

A good positive viewpoint from Johnny, and yes, perhaps more should be done in the way of providing incentives for youngsters.

But many of us have been playing for upwards of thirty years, and become jaded if the season goes on for too long. My preference is not to take part in any summer leagues, as you then finish up playing bar billiards all the year round.

Difficult to believe, I know, but I DO have a life outside of bar billiards.

It's enough for me that I've recently started to play in Opens again. If I ever give up bar billiards - and no, I don't think the game will die - I'd start entering Chess Congresses again. I did win a minor tournament at Harrow once, but the prize money did not amount to much (£40 I think) and in any case was secondary to the kudos of actually having beaten all-comers.

Money means different things to different people. To me it's not that important.

[Owners' Account]

Johnny makes some good points in his post...

I've always believed in having something for everyone. Never should we forget that Bar Billiards is fun for everyone, and needs to be kept that way. However for the really top players, I don;t see any harm in having a big money tournament every year. Like I said the only problem is the high entrance fee, which is why I came up with an idea to make it much more easy for people to get into a tournaments of this type. Plus I've always wanted to look at staging a longer tournament format.

Just trying to find way at making our game grow a bit, and that is partly why this forum was set up, to look at things like this.

[Richard]

Nice idea Chubbster

It would take a lot of promoting but could work, put me down to play if you decide to put the wheels in motion.

Like you say, no harm in it.
But as you probably realise, it has a limited appeal.

I would rather see more done to regenerate interest for the 'lesser' leagues in Sussex. This is the part of the game that is dying, and I want to see the Champion of Champions competition restored.

The Horsham League used to stage a Festival Cup, which used to attract a large entry all over Sussex and Surrey - we had 64 teams enter one year. I put up another thread somewhere showing all past winners - several came from Brighton. That competition was eventually discarded when someone came up with the bright idea to send out entry forms in September rather than April. And they wondered why only about eight teams remembered to enter !

And the best competition of all was the Champion-of-pub-Champions competition sponsored by Tarratt in the late 80's/early 90s: You qualified by winning your local pub's house championship, then played a series of qualifying rounds, then it got down to the last 32 who played off all in one evening. There was a cash prize for the winner/runner-up, trophies for the last 32, plus in later years the winner had his holiday to Jersey paid for. Nobody worried if they didn't win their local house championship: if you were still determined to play, you could still qualify by finding another pub with a table but no team, and playing a knockabout with someone and then entering from there.

Bring back competitions like these, I say !

[scooner]

Glenn, i think its a great idea. Money is one of the greatest motivators and i can't see how an annual tournament could be in any way detrimental to the game.
We run something similar in the greenkeepers association (although not for that sort of money as it effects the players amateur status). We play our national tournament with a spring qualifier with 2 members from each section, usually the gross and nett winners, going forward to represent at the national. Or, we can pay 90 oddquid and turn up. Its amazing how many will just turn up and pay the money! Hope this helps..

[CraigC]

Can't do any harm to give it a go, but the only way it could raise the profile of the game in general is through some sort of TV coverage - the TV cameras are too busy filming flying porcines. Good luck though.

The real problem is addressing the game at the 'lesser' level - nothing raises the profile more of this pub game of a bb table in a popular pub, and they are fast disappearing. The top players will always find a club or obscure pub willing to host them when their regular turns into a Chinese Restaurant, but sadly it doesn't attract the new players. Eventually there will only be top players left, and then it's bye bye billiards. Sorry, first day back at work today after Jersey, feeling a little gloomy.

[Dave Anscombe]

Good idea Glenn. Has potential.

Some members have mentioned that having such a competition my ruin grass roots membership.

I don't think so. In fact I believe the reverse could(!) happen.

Snooker and Darts started out as pub games with World Championships played out in front of audiences of less than 100-150 people in some social club. Very similar to our World Championship today.

It was only in the late sixties when television started showing matches on television (e.g. Pot Black) that Snooker and Darts started to come to the fore. People then went back to their pubs and clubs and tried to emulate their hero's. Pubs and Clubs realizing the profit that could be made then backed and promoted their teams.

I think that if a competition like you have suggested could be made to work and good sponsorship arranged then television may follow.

If it does then three things will happen:

1) More money will come into the game through better sponsorship.

2) Bigger prize money.

3) People who have not seen or played the game will want to have go and try it out. If they like it they may press their local pub or club to get a table in so they can form a team. Therefore aiding the grass roots.

The third point is very similar to situations we have all found ourselves, when playing and somebody comes up to us and asks us what game we are playing. We tell them Bar Billiards. We then start to show them how it's played.

The idea is very good Glenn but things need to be planned well in advance. The first event may not have much prize money but lessons learnt for the following years may help the competition to build up. Winning big money to live on may not be around for a few years yet.

You have my vote Glenn. :)

[Owners' Account]

Does anyone remember in Darts the "News Of The World Championships"

Basically, ever pub in England who had a dart board could run a house tournament. The winner of that would go to the regional tournament, then the winners go to the county tournament, then the winners play the main final.... That's what made it so prestigious, having all the entrance's. Don't know that exact number of people who technically entered the tournament, but it must have been well into 6 figures.

That's the idea I was looking for if you did not want to stump up the entrance fee.

Thanks for your kind comments. Like I said just an idea at the moment, but one very much worth perusing if you ask me.

As for TV Cameras, well all I can say is watch this space. I'm please to say that this aspect of our game is already well under way.....

[Q]

Despite all my sarcy comments on many other threads I actually like the idea, its growing on me all the time.

By Jove I think Glenn could be onto a winner

That's the sort of competition I was referring to when I said this yesterday, Glen :
And the best competition of all was the Champion-of-pub-Champions competition sponsored by Tarratt in the late 80's/early 90s: You qualified by winning your local pub's house championship, then played a series of qualifying rounds, then it got down to the last 32 who played off all in one evening. There was a cash prize for the winner/runner-up, trophies for the last 32, plus in later years the winner had his holiday to Jersey paid for. Nobody worried if they didn't win their local house championship: if you were still determined to play, you could still qualify by finding another pub with a table but no team, and playing a knockabout with someone and then entering from there.

The year that Mick Holmwood won it, we estimated that there were probably several hundred entrants from Sussex. Sponsoring the event was not a problem for Mr Tarratt, he gained revenue from having all his tables played on for the qualifying rounds.

Other sponsorships we have had over the years have been from King & Barnes brewers (now taken over by Hall & Woodhouse), and the local press.

I agree with you that Sponsorship is the way of the future.
But also, the game needs to be made attractive to encourage new players with the net being cast far and wide - otherwise all you will end up with for all your noble thoughts is yet another Masters competition.

[bigtj]

Glenn, a good thought about extending the profile of this great game, and the idea certainly leaves plenty of room for thought and discussion, but this will have appeal to a limited number of people and they will be experiencedand exsisting players.

Prehaps we need also to look at some sort of tournament that would appeal to people new to the game or looking to find out what the game is all about. Either there could be a new comers tournament or a doubles competition that allowed an experienced player to partner a new comer.

I feel the way forward is to introduce new blood and not necessarily just encourage existing players. I know you always have the games exsistence in mind, and the idea of your tournament is possible as a way to advertise the game, but will not encouragenew blood.

[petem]

I agree with big tj about trying to bring new players in to the game.Remembering back to when I started playing in the late 70's all of my team were in their early 20's
Last year after joining up with the Elms B team I am the youngest player at 50
I know in those days that Pool hadn't taken off,there were no home PC's etc etc but we had more than enough young players coming into the game to challenge the established names

[Owners' Account]

Here's another thought,

Many times people are always looking for ways to encourage new players into our game. Fair enough, and that of course must be done. I myself was lucky, a lady called Gina left here team one year and started a new team with herself and 4 players who had never played before. How many people are prepared to make these kind of steps? Not many. But from that team formed 4 years ago, came myself and another young player who you may have heard about called Chris Reeves.

Anyway, coming to my point. Would it not make sense that the best way to attack new players to our game is to simply raise the profile of our game?

Always makes me worry that people don't see this. And it pissed me off when people say that big ideas like this are "not helping the game". Do you think Football would be our national sport if it were not on TV all the time, with the players in the Paper everyday? Bar Billiards needs a chain reaction effect to start. One thing leads to another, and success leads to success and on-going explanation.

So when people say we are not doing enough for the grass roots of the game, I believe that anything we do that raises the profile of our game will inevitable not only help the grass roots, but be the BEST thing we can do for the grass roots of our game.

Now my satellite idea for example was just an idea on how to run a high stakes tournament and allow the more local players to be able to give such a competition a go. The News of the World Championship is the sole reason why Darts became a well known sport, which in turn raised it's profile and got itself a world championship, attracted better players with more tournaments etc etc. Now look at what you have.

A high national tournament would do this. Any pub in the country could hold a house championship, then county playoff before the National finals. I don't think a few quid for a night of Bar Billiards is too much to pay at all. But if you don't like the idea of the big buy in tournament, then just use the idea of a national tournament which anyone can enter is just as good.

Technically, we have the All England Championships to do this, but for that you have to enter your county singles. What I am talking about is on a much larger scale.

So look at what you would have if this idea was put in place.

A tournament that any local player can enter, and I mean any local player in the country.

A chance for everyone to compete for the biggest prize pool in Bar Billiards.

This is turn will create a huge fuss and if Bar Billiard is ever going to make it to any kind of well known game, even just a game that lots of people have heard of, then this is the only way to go.

I'm sure you can see the benefits, but the point of my original post is this. People need to realize that the best way to help the grass roots of our game is to simply raise the profile of our game as a whole. Although I take nothing away from the people who are only interested in raising the attendance in there local league, somebody, and some people need to be thinking about our game as a whole. I would have thought that the All England Bar Billiards Association could see this. This forum for example I am proud to say has done more for Bar Billiards than anyone could ever imagine. It's done more than any tournament, recrutment drive could ever have possibly done. After all, your reading and thinking and discussing this idea right now aren't you?

Weather or not people agree with my high stakes tournament dream or not, you have to admit that there is a lot of truth to what I am saying.

Lets put another spin on it. Lets take two scenarios here shall we. I'll give you two options of things that can be done, and after wards have a think about what idea would attract the most NEW players into our game. In other words, which of these two ideas if carried our successfully would best help attract news players to our game and raise our profile best...

1. Sussex Bar Billiards creates a committee to attract new players, and these few people put up posters, call or there friends and invite them down for a game, and run a "New Players Night" each month for a whole year down there local pub where players of any level can come and try out the game.

2. Glenn Chubb makes the 7th page of "the Sun" Newspaper for breaking the world Bar Billiards record for playing 24 hours not stop.

Think about that. Which do you think overall would attract more attention and publicity and sprue more players to our game.

Do you see the point I am making here, and I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't stress this point enough. Success breads success. Raise the profile on a big scale and the players will surly come. That's how things work, that's how it always works in all walks of life. So by all means look for small scale things to improve the game, but the best way, the only way to help the grass roots our our game is to think big and implement big ideas. A huge national "News Of The world" Championship event would without a shadow of doubt to more for our game that people can possibly imagine, and that's why I always think of the big ideas rather than trying to find long winded ways to attract one or two new players every year, and I don't think I am wrong in thinking.

But then what do I know. I'm just a kid.... or at least that's what someone said not to long ago....

Glenn you're an irresistible force, but for all your noble suggestions you will find that in our world there lie too many immovable objects.

In fact, you sound just like me and my young mates did thirty years ago ! (Been there, tried it, failed, gave up.)

Countless rounds of peddling our wares round the local newspaper, writing to The Sun, arranging a 72 (yes 72-) hour marathon, then being shat on from a great height by Norris McWhirter.

Others have briefly succeeded in raising the profile of the game. Freddie Trueman did his Indoor League and the game received a bit of coverage there. Reggie Bosanquet made local front page news when he attended our Gala in Horsham. The World Championships got a brief mention on Southern News one year. Terry Race made the local press when he won the World Championship and you can dial the page up on a google search.

But there's no escaping the fact that a) a game where the player stands rooted to the spot and pots balls into holes does not mak for great TV. And b) though it looks easy to play it's so incredibly difficult for a new player to master.

There are limits to what can be achieved by all of us. Even your "play the game in every pub in Sussex for a qualifying satellite competition" isn't practical any more. Why ? Because the game has already shifted away from pubs to be played more in Clubs. Pubs convert into restaurants, or throw the bar billiards out for Pool, or simply become too fecking expensive to drink in compared with a club. Sad I know, I for one would rather find a nice pub to play for. This may not appear obvious to you, but you play in Brighton, where the pub is still king.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to attract youngsters to the game or the game will die. Those that we have often come from a bar billiard-playing family - you mentioned Chris Reeves, a good example. there's also Kevin Hall, and his younger brothers are up-and-coming in the game too. I have noticed recently too that some youngsters are making the transition from Pool to bar billiards - Milhouse a good example, there's also Paul Reece and David Jones in Surrey who play both games to a high standard.

But there's no actual panacea: all we can do is keep plugging away, try to attract sponsorship, keep heralding the attraction of our wonderful game using the vehicle of this Forum. Also, by not belittling the World Championship, and that other idea of yours ;) , the Official National Ranking System. these are the things that should be attracting publicity, and from that a natural raising of the game's profile should ensue.

[Owners' Account]

So your answer is because it has never worked before... we should give up. I'm not talking about becoming a bigger game than darts, on getting coverage on TV, I'm simply putting out ideas to help the future of our game.

I've noticed this tends to be a general attitude in Bar Billiards "It can't work, tried it before, doesn't work...... so lets not try it."

That, and that reason alone is why the game is dying. It will die out at this rate, no question about it. So given everyones attitude, I guess our game is going to dye out.

Better enjoy the game while it lasts I guess.....

When oh when are people going to open there eyes and realize that it;s the general defeatist attitude of our own players that is harming our game. Why am I the only one that can see that?

[Owners' Account]

Just to add to this, I would like It clear, as I know how these forums work, that I'm not having a pop at anyone in particular, especially tommo my friend who has helped out around here a great deal.

I'm just venting my general frustration of an attitude I get all the time. It's hard trying your best only to have people putting up barriers. Think we need to look past them sometimes and do what Tommo says "Keep plugging away"

[petem]

I agree with Glenn that the profile of the game must be improved and I fully see the problems of doing this
Local competitions leading onto a national finals in a centralized venue may be the best option
There is always a chance of one of the big names falling early in this type of comp as happens in the FA Cup,although I would not have any seeding in the competition
The format could be say a Worthing league comp with the best 32 players going onto the next round along with Brighton 32,Lewes 32, Mid Sussex 32,etc,etc
Obviously some leagues are larger than others an numbers would need to be adjusted at the time and also depending on the entries
There would then be a play off at a regional neutral venue probably over 2 days where the surviving 32/64 players would go through to the next rounds
The same format would be used for the other areas and of course more rounds would probably have to be inserted into the calender depending on the interest ,ending up with the remaining 64 players in the national finals
I think 64 players over 2 days in a national final would be manageable
This idea would mean the tournament would be spread throughout the year
The problem with this would be when to hold the rounds as some players are already playing 2/3 times a week as well as inter league matches
I can remember the old News of The World Darts before the Pro's really got involved used to be won by unknown players,so could this happen in our sport?.It is a possibility
Excuse the ramblings but I am sure you get the general idea

Tommo - You cannot give up, if you want to keep this game alive and fresh then people will have to move there "behind" and rather then put ideas out, use them!
I and many other teenagers would love bar billiards if it was "trendy" or had a reputation. The word "trendy" that I use isn't to change the game we play but to make it competitive.

I wish more people would think like the Chubbster, about promoting our game.

I hate it when Keith says lets make it more competitive by losing (he is joking I hope ;)) the winners are not the problem it's the losers who want it easier so they can win.
I am sure handicaps don't help as it divides the league up too much.

I was once a “crap” player, here I don’t want to sound a bit “big headed”. But I tried to be a better player and if there was no competitive side to the game I would of just given up. I didn’t get good by luck or relying on handicaps, I got better because there was a competitive father who taught me how to play.

I am still having good nights out, I still enjoy the laughs, however Bar Billiards won’t be part of my life if people give up on there ideas.

I apologise if this statement is too bold, however I have a passion for this game, the end line is that, do the people who CAN make a difference want to?

[milhouse]

tommo said:

But there's no escaping the fact that a) a game where the player stands rooted to the spot and pots balls into holes does not mak for great TV.

So how is this any different to a player standing in the same place throwing darts at a board ???

[Owners' Account]

Without a doubt the best point made in this forums history........

Well put Millhouse.

First of all, who's giving up ? Certainly not me! :o

Secondly, I opened myself up for Milhouse's comment. Good point made: Glad he made it. So tell me then, why has the game once it was shown on TV not captured the public's imagination and taken off in a big way? Answer - because people watching it and not having played it don't understand it. It is NOT attractive viewing on TV in the way it was portrayed on Indoor League, and if ever attempted again, needs a better angle, not a running commentary from Freddie, bless his soul, trying his best to make it sound interesting. ::)
I hope it gets on TV again one day soon and the same mistakes are avoided.

Thirdly, Petem has gone into depth as to how a possible competition as suggested by Glenn could run in Sussex. I have long bemoaned the loss of our Champion-of-Champions competition and no matter how many goes I have had on the subject it has always fallen on deaf ears. Any new competition which you come up with needs to be run by the County Committee first. BEST OF LUCK !

Fourthly, do not mistake me for a person who condones apathy in the bar billiards world. I am the one who identifies the barriers, not the one who creates them. :P

Finally, there are other, bigger, fish to fry if we are worried about our noble game dying. How about the threats of disappearance of tables, competition ones and otherwise ?
I have had a long chat with Simon Tinto about how this affects Surrey and what we can do about it - but will save that at the moment for another thread.

tommo said:

Secondly, I opened myself up for Milhouse's comment. Good point made: Glad he made it. So tell me then, why has the game once it was shown on TV not captured the public's imagination and taken off in a big way?

Answer is becasue the rules have never been published to a big scale, Snooker rules are far more tricky to understand but yet they managed it because they made the rules easily available.

It also doesn't help when you have variations of Bar Billiards, people can get confused fromt he "standard" game and the Jersey game!

[Owners' Account]

With regards to Tables in pubs....

People seem to think that they need top put more tables in pubs to make the game popular. But the game is not popular. Pubs simply do what makes them the most money. If more people liked Bar Billiards, and it was a bigger game, then Pubs would straight away want a Bar Billiards Table.

My point is, yet again, that Bar Billiards needs to be made more popular THEN landlords will want tables in pubs. Anyone who thinks that the way forward is encourage landlords to have a table in there pub is living in a dream world. That;s not going to happen in the current state, never, ever will.

But make Bar Billiards more popular, through any means, then landlords won;t need persuading. The tables will start to show up themselves.